Author Topic: Archbishop Lefebvre and the New Mass (Read 3586 times)

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #6 on:** December 07, 2016, 08:55:33 AM »

Quote from: RogerThat

St. Thomas, in Summa, agrees to this. See here. http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4064.htm

St. Thomas was not talking about the Novus Ordo, which is a doubtful mass. The strikes against it are too many to ignore, unless one chooses to stick his head in the ground.

Doubtful Pope promulgated it
Doubtful promulgation
Mass is not said in Latin original language and translations are different according to country.
Doubtful new formula for consecrating bishops (no bishop, no priests ordained)
Doubtful new ordination rite (no valid priests)
Doubt about validity of the NOM, it is the same as the Lutheran and Anglican services.

others can add more

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #7 on:** December 07, 2016, 10:23:22 AM »

Quote

Form: the words "This is my body" and "This is my blood" must be stated. So if you hear these words or know they are being said, it's a valid mass. None of the other words "matter" for the validity of the mass.

Cardinal Ottaviani and the other theologians who studied the novus ordo in the 60s disagree with you.

songbird · « **Reply #8 on:** December 07, 2016, 10:43:52 AM »

No ordination, no priest, no Precious Blood/body. Ordinations were no longer when words were changed to imply no ordination, but a presider. This is of Lutherism. Luther made sure there was no need of consecrated priest.

No Sacrifice in the New Order.

Traditional, Priest enter from side of altar with victim. In New Order, they walk up an aisle with a book. No victim, no sacrifice.

Chapter 12 of Prophet Daniel: The Continual Sacrifice will come to an end. We are nearly there.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #9 on:** December 07, 2016, 10:57:18 AM »

Here's the issue:

Either the new mass is a mass, or it is not.
If it is not, then it doesn't fulfill our sunday obligation and we can NEVER go.
If it is doubtful, then we also cannot go.

Either the new mass is 100% catholic or it is not.
And it must be 100% catholic in Theology and Liturgy.
Cardinal Ottaviani said is wasn't, Fr Wathen said it wasn't, +ABL said it has issues, +W says it is ambiguous and lends one to "slide into apostasy".
So, some say it's not 100% catholic; others are unsure.

Unless the answer is a clear, 'yes, the new mass is 100% catholic' then one cannot attend. How is this so difficult? Going on 50 years, and some still cannot take a stand?

Do we make apologies for protestants and tell them to stay in their false religion? Do we make apologies for Anglicans and tell them to stay in their false religion? Did the Church make apologies for any of the Arians, or Gnostics, or any of the other heretics in the past? No. Even if one only partially denies 1 article of Faith and is 99% catholic (if one could put a number on such a thing), it means they are not catholic and they cannot be saved.

The point is not to condemn, but to save their souls. Can a protestant, anglican, or arian save their souls, if they hold to their errors at death? Church teaching says no. So, a novus ordo catholic cannot be saved, if they hold to their errors at death.

So, while we have the chance, we must do all in our power to tell them they are in danger and to leave the new church and to come to tradition. We can't spend our energy trying to explain why "it's not their fault". We can't make apologies for their situation - they are in spiritual danger! We must warn them! We must teach them!

If clerics can't/won't do this, (and many, including +W have yet to take such a stance), then they are practicing a kind of 'catholic ecuмenism' towards our 'fellow novus ordo catholics'. This doesn't solve anything, it doesn't save souls, and it doesn't please God.