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Author Topic: Apology and Retraction  (Read 2648 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Apology and Retraction
« on: October 16, 2019, 01:56:23 PM »
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    • I just had a conversation with someone authoritative who convinced me I was wrong about Archbishop Lefebvre:

    He said that although he himself was never sedevacantist, Lefebvre did not preclude private individuals from entertaining the theoretical possibility.

    Regarding the injection of the issue of dogmatic facts into the conversation, this person was undecided, but said that the pre-conciliar theologians could not have foreseen a crisis of this magnitude in the Church today, and implied that the matter of dogmatic facts and the conciliar popes was a questionable matter which he would have to go back and research.

    Essentially, it is I who was wrong on these points, and consequently I not only retract my previously expressed opinions and understanding of these matters, but offer to Hollingsworth, Ladislaus, and Byzcat a sincere apology for my aggressive behavior.

    Finally, I was told that someone who has written a book such as I have will undercut its authority if the author is seen to be flinging insults around the Internet.

    My apologies to all affected.

    Sean Johnson
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Apology and Retraction
    « Reply #1 on: October 16, 2019, 03:34:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 16, 2019, 01:56:23 PM
    Finally, I was told that someone who has written a book such as I have will undercut its authority if the author is seen to be flinging insults around the Internet.

    That might have been true 25 years ago but I'd say that Salsa and Disco and Chris Ferrara are counter-examples.  I doubt you did any damage to your book.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Apology and Retraction
    « Reply #2 on: October 16, 2019, 07:10:37 PM »
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    • Apology accepted.  
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    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Apology and Retraction
    « Reply #3 on: October 16, 2019, 07:32:29 PM »
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    • SJ: 
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    Essentially, it is I who was wrong on these points, and consequently I not only retract my previously expressed opinions and understanding of these matters, but offer to Hollingsworth, Ladislaus, and Byzcat a sincere apology for my aggressive behavior.
    No problem.  Most of us are wrong from time to time.  Some are wrong all the time. I'm not even sure I remember what the exact nature of our dispute was.  Anyhow, sell your book.  I, for one, would probably not object to most of its contents, if it was the stuff you partially published on CI, under the user name "X."  Maybe some sspxers will finally wake up to the obvious decline of their organization.  So go for it!  One must be somewhat aggressive to survive in these times.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Apology and Retraction
    « Reply #4 on: October 16, 2019, 07:45:15 PM »
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    • I apologize also for my own aggressive behavior.  I got frustrated because it just appears obvious from his own words that +Lefebvre considered it OK to have the sedevacantist opinion
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    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Apology and Retraction
    « Reply #5 on: October 16, 2019, 08:37:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 16, 2019, 01:56:23 PM
    I just had a conversation with someone authoritative who convinced me I was wrong about Archbishop Lefebvre:

    He said that although he himself was never sedevacantist, Lefebvre did not preclude private individuals from entertaining the theoretical possibility.

    Regarding the injection of the issue of dogmatic facts into the conversation, this person was undecided, but said that the pre-conciliar theologians could not have foreseen a crisis of this magnitude in the Church today, and implied that the matter of dogmatic facts and the conciliar popes was a questionable matter which he would have to go back and research.

    Essentially, it is I who was wrong on these points, and consequently I not only retract my previously expressed opinions and understanding of these matters, but offer to Hollingsworth, Ladislaus, and Byzcat a sincere apology for my aggressive behavior.

    Finally, I was told that someone who has written a book such as I have will undercut its authority if the author is seen to be flinging insults around the Internet.

    My apologies to all affected.

    Sean Johnson
    What a nice humble Catholic response. Good for you, Sean!

    I do disagree with your confrère when he said: “the pre-conciliar theologians could not have foreseen a crisis of this magnitude in the Church today”.

    In his book, The Relations of the Church to Society,  Fr. Edmund James O’Reilly S.J. actually envisioned the possibility of a situation similar to what we have today: “ The great schism of the West suggests to me a reflection which I take the liberty of expressing here.  If this schism had not occurred, the hypothesis of such a thing happening would appear to many chimerical. They would say it could not be; God would not permit the Church to come into so unhappy a situation. Heresies might spring up and spread and last painfully long, through the fault and to the perdition of their authors and abettors, to the great distress too of the faithful, increased by actual persecution in many places where the heretics were dominant.  But that the true Church should remain between thirty and forty years without a thoroughly ascertained Head, and representative of Christ on earth, this would not be. Yet it has been; and we have no guarantee that it will not be again, though we may fervently hope otherwise. What I would infer is, that we must not be too ready to pronounce on what God may permit.“

    http://www.cmri.org/02-long-term-vacancy.shtml
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Apology and Retraction
    « Reply #6 on: October 17, 2019, 12:55:59 PM »
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    • As lurker on this issue, my respect for Sean has gone way up because of this thread. 


    My best regards to all of you in the pursuit of truth. :applause:
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Apology and Retraction
    « Reply #7 on: October 17, 2019, 01:02:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 16, 2019, 01:56:23 PM
    Finally, I was told that someone who has written a book such as I have will undercut its authority if the author is seen to be flinging insults around the Internet.

    Here, my friends, is a fine example of being a day late, and a dollar short. 
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Apology and Retraction
    « Reply #8 on: October 17, 2019, 01:03:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: LeDeg on October 17, 2019, 12:55:59 PM
    As lurker on this issue, my respect for Sean has gone way up because of this thread.

    As they say... one can't fall off the floor.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Apology and Retraction
    « Reply #9 on: October 17, 2019, 01:29:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bonaventure on October 17, 2019, 01:03:50 PM
    As they say... one can't fall off the floor.
    They must have been teetotalers.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Apology and Retraction
    « Reply #10 on: October 17, 2019, 03:25:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bonaventure on October 17, 2019, 01:02:43 PM
    Here, my friends, is a fine example of being a day late, and a dollar short.
    "If you will not forgive your brother, your Father in heaven will not forgive you" or something like that.

    I've been plenty critical of Sean here, but he has apologized, we ought to forgive him and not rub it in.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Apology and Retraction
    « Reply #11 on: October 17, 2019, 07:44:18 PM »
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    • I don’t mind taking a few on the chin.

    I earned them.

    Pax.
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    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Apology and Retraction
    « Reply #12 on: October 17, 2019, 10:10:06 PM »
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    • Thanks, Sean.

    "Tis a bit of heaven on earth.
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    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Apology and Retraction
    « Reply #13 on: October 18, 2019, 11:11:31 PM »
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    • Excerpt from the Archbishop's 1979 Statement:

    "Consequently, the Society of St. Pius X, its priests, brothers, sisters, and oblates, cannot tolerate among its members those who refuse to pray for the Pope or affirm that the Novus Ordo Missae is per se invalid. Certainly, we suffer from this continual incoherence which consists in praising all the Liberal orientations of Vatican II and at the same time straining to mitigate its effects. But all of this must incite us to prayer and to the firm maintenance of Tradition rather than to the affirmation that the Pope is not the Pope."
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Apology and Retraction
    « Reply #14 on: October 18, 2019, 11:32:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on October 18, 2019, 11:11:31 PM
    Excerpt from the Archbishop's 1979 Statement:

    "Consequently, the Society of St. Pius X, its priests, brothers, sisters, and oblates, cannot tolerate among its members those who refuse to pray for the Pope or affirm that the Novus Ordo Missae is per se invalid. Certainly, we suffer from this continual incoherence which consists in praising all the Liberal orientations of Vatican II and at the same time straining to mitigate its effects. But all of this must incite us to prayer and to the firm maintenance of Tradition rather than to the affirmation that the Pope is not the Pope."
    “among its members”
    Keep in mind that it’s a priestly society, laypeople aren’t strictly speaking members.
    As Matthew has pointed out before, lefebvre understood that sedevacantists and him had to go their separate ways, you can’t run a society without common agreement, but there isn’t any evidence that he said Sedevacantists were outside the church, anathema, damned to hell, or anything like that.  Like right or wrong I haven’t seen any evidence that he ever said anything like that and a lot of others have not either.
    To be clear, I am not Sedevacantist 
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