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Author Topic: Anti - Pope  (Read 4056 times)

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Offline stbrighidswell

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Anti - Pope
« on: December 24, 2013, 02:45:19 AM »
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  • I have heard of prophecies about the Anti Pope towards the end times but have never read them.  It is more through word of mouth that I have heard of him.

    Can anyone here supply some information of the anti pope.  What do the Sedes think of this?  Do they believe that the anti pope is a real pope but a bad pope.

    I would consider Francis to be the closest pope to be the anti pope.  Does that still make him validly elected?


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Anti - Pope
    « Reply #1 on: December 24, 2013, 07:46:50 AM »
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  • St. B:
    Quote
    I would consider Francis to be the closest pope to be the anti pope. Does that still make him validly elected?


    A question I ask myself and others repeatedly, but never get a really clear answer.  Of course, Francis is at the very least a material heretic.  Would any reasonable Catholic dispute the charge?  He is what BF in an unguarded moment referred to as a "genuine modernist."  Calling him an "anti pope" is not so far off the mark, is it?  Sure, he's an anti pope.  He's 'anti' everything a pope should be.  So why can't we call him an 'anti pope?' Why must some of us be made to pay for that assessment by being automatically cast into sedevacantism?  I'm not an SV.  I certainly believe that Francis is a budding anti-Christ, but that doesn't automatically make me an SV.  He's the pope, by golly.  Didn't Our Lady of Salette tell the children that the Anti-Christ himself would eventually occupy the Chair of St. Peter? And, if so, doesn't that pretty well knock SVism into a cocked hat?  
    I realize that asking such a question risks an avalanche of sede apologists descending upon it.  Please don't!  I am so easily bored, and my attention span is not what it used to be.  Just please tell me why an anti-pope can not be the real pope.  And again, please, no quotes from Bellarmine or Suarez, or whomever.


    Offline JPaul

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    Anti - Pope
    « Reply #2 on: December 24, 2013, 08:56:47 AM »
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  • Hollingsworth,
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    A question I ask myself and others repeatedly, but never get a really clear answer.  Of course, Francis is at the very least a material heretic.  Would any reasonable Catholic dispute the charge?


    The adherents of SPXism would and do dispute this.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Anti - Pope
    « Reply #3 on: December 24, 2013, 03:24:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    Hollingsworth,
    Quote
    A question I ask myself and others repeatedly, but never get a really clear answer.  Of course, Francis is at the very least a material heretic.  Would any reasonable Catholic dispute the charge?


    The adherents of SPXism would and do dispute this.


    I dont believe that one bit. No one disputes whether Francis is a material heretic or not. Isn't it obvious!
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline JPaul

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    Anti - Pope
    « Reply #4 on: December 24, 2013, 05:55:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica
    Quote from: J.Paul
    Hollingsworth,
    Quote
    A question I ask myself and others repeatedly, but never get a really clear answer.  Of course, Francis is at the very least a material heretic.  Would any reasonable Catholic dispute the charge?


    The adherents of SPXism would and do dispute this.


    I dont believe that one bit. No one disputes whether Francis is a material heretic or not. Isn't it obvious!


    Dear CA,  Please review the the numerous posts of the SPXists(the R&R folks).




    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Anti - Pope
    « Reply #5 on: December 25, 2013, 09:54:28 AM »
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  • While I pay little attention to what Francis says/writes, and am only familiar with the scandal of the week, it is definately arguable that he is even a material heretic.

    To be a material heretic, you must deny an article of the faith.

    The things I am aware Francis has said (e.g., "There is no Catholic God") are "proximate to heresy," not heretical in themselves.

    That is to say, to say there is no Catholic God is an ambiguous statement in and of itself.

    It is correct in a certain sense (e.g., Are there other gods for other people?  Is not the one true God the god of all people, whether they accept or reject him?)

    In another sense, the statement could be heretical: Does God not have the Catholic Faith?  Are Catholics devoid of a God?  Etc.

    There are legitimate suspicions of where the Pope is going with this statement: is the true God present in all religions?  Does this imply that the elements of truth present in the false sects have salvific value?  Etc.

    So no, Pope Francis has not yet directly repudiated an article of Faith, or even said anything that directly contradicts an article of Faith.

    His comments on the fαɢs, etc are all "proximate to heresy," but not heretical in themselves.

    In saner times, he would have been summoned before the Inquisition to explain his comments, and a judgment/command rendered regarding them.

    But as they stand, they are inconclusive.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Anti - Pope
    « Reply #6 on: December 25, 2013, 10:16:53 AM »
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  • Of the other hand, there is always Article 2 of Dignitatis Humanae, which directly opposes the Syllabus of Errors.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Anti - Pope
    « Reply #7 on: December 25, 2013, 02:11:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    While I pay little attention to what Francis says/writes, and am only familiar with the scandal of the week, it is definately arguable that he is even a material heretic.

    To be a material heretic, you must deny an article of the faith.

    The things I am aware Francis has said (e.g., "There is no Catholic God") are "proximate to heresy," not heretical in themselves.

    That is to say, to say there is no Catholic God is an ambiguous statement in and of itself.

    It is correct in a certain sense (e.g., Are there other gods for other people?  Is not the one true God the god of all people, whether they accept or reject him?)

    In another sense, the statement could be heretical: Does God not have the Catholic Faith?  Are Catholics devoid of a God?  Etc.

    There are legitimate suspicions of where the Pope is going with this statement: is the true God present in all religions?  Does this imply that the elements of truth present in the false sects have salvific value?  Etc.

    So no, Pope Francis has not yet directly repudiated an article of Faith, or even said anything that directly contradicts an article of Faith.

    His comments on the fαɢs, etc are all "proximate to heresy," but not heretical in themselves.

    In saner times, he would have been summoned before the Inquisition to explain his comments, and a judgment/command rendered regarding them.

    But as they stand, they are inconclusive.


    Sean did you not see what Francis said about the Virgin Mary, or that God is com substantial with the Mother, or that he doesn't believe in a Catholic God???
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline procopius

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    Anti - Pope
    « Reply #8 on: December 25, 2013, 02:24:07 PM »
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  • An anti-pope means against or opposed to the Pope.  Like anti-christ is against or opposed to Christ.  Antivirus is against or opposed to viruses.  You get the idea.  If someone says that Francis is the anti-pope then they are saying that not only is he not the pope Francis is also against the Pope.  But then who is the Pope?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Anti - Pope
    « Reply #9 on: December 25, 2013, 02:51:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica
    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    While I pay little attention to what Francis says/writes, and am only familiar with the scandal of the week, it is definately arguable that he is even a material heretic.

    To be a material heretic, you must deny an article of the faith.

    The things I am aware Francis has said (e.g., "There is no Catholic God") are "proximate to heresy," not heretical in themselves.

    That is to say, to say there is no Catholic God is an ambiguous statement in and of itself.

    It is correct in a certain sense (e.g., Are there other gods for other people?  Is not the one true God the god of all people, whether they accept or reject him?)

    In another sense, the statement could be heretical: Does God not have the Catholic Faith?  Are Catholics devoid of a God?  Etc.

    There are legitimate suspicions of where the Pope is going with this statement: is the true God present in all religions?  Does this imply that the elements of truth present in the false sects have salvific value?  Etc.

    So no, Pope Francis has not yet directly repudiated an article of Faith, or even said anything that directly contradicts an article of Faith.

    His comments on the fαɢs, etc are all "proximate to heresy," but not heretical in themselves.

    In saner times, he would have been summoned before the Inquisition to explain his comments, and a judgment/command rendered regarding them.

    But as they stand, they are inconclusive.


    Sean did you not see what Francis said about the Virgin Mary, or that God is com substantial with the Mother, or that he doesn't believe in a Catholic God???


    Centro-

    No, I did not see what he said about Mary; could you post a link, please?

    Regarding the comment about "there is no Catholic God."

    As the post you responded to mentioned, that phrase is ambiguous.

    In pre-Vatican II days, it would have elicited a summons from the Office of the Holy Inquisition for being "suspect of heresy."

    The phrase itself is only "proximate to heresy," not heretical in itself.

    This, the Holy Office would question him on what precisely he means.

    He could then either clear or condemn himself with the answer he gave.

    But as it stands, ambiguous, it is not heretical.

    I can make that phrase mean something perfectly Catholic (e.g., "The one true God is God of all people, not just Catholics, whether they like it or not.  Therefore he is not God merely of Catholics.").

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Anti - Pope
    « Reply #10 on: December 25, 2013, 04:22:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson

    In saner times, he would have been summoned before the Inquisition to explain his comments, and a judgment/command rendered regarding them.


    Actually, this has never been an option since there is no tribunal within the Church with the right to pass judgment against the pope.

    The only action available for his subjects to take against him is summarized below, beyond that, nothing can legally be done against the anti-Catholic actions of the conciliar popes.  

    Quote from: Fr. Wathen
    However, even though the hierarchy cannot take legal action against an heretical pope, all of them together, or any one of them in particular, can condemn his teaching; they can accuse him before God's tribunal, warn him of his sins, and remind him of the divine wrath. Should this measure fail to produce any correction, they can denounce him before his subjects, the Catholic faithful, and warn them that they are not to listen to his teaching. Indeed, not only may the prelates of the Church do this, they have a most serious obligation to do it, an obligation which is as grave as the heresies are pernicious and scandalous. And if they fail to do this, they become a party to the pope's crimes, and will most certainly share in his punishment.

    Moreover, where the bishops default in their solemn duty to protect the Church and God's Little Sheep, the priests and the laypeople have not the right, but the duty, to raise their voices against an heretical pontiff. They not only raise their voices to God in prayer for the misguided man, but they also speak out to the bishops and the priests, and among themselves so as to warn their brothers and sisters in Christ that the plague of heresy has infected even their Holy Father, and has rendered him dangerous and unclean.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    « Reply #11 on: December 25, 2013, 06:07:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: SeanJohnson

    In saner times, he would have been summoned before the Inquisition to explain his comments, and a judgment/command rendered regarding them.


    Actually, this has never been an option since there is no tribunal within the Church with the right to pass judgment against the pope.

    The only action available for his subjects to take against him is summarized below, beyond that, nothing can legally be done against the anti-Catholic actions of the conciliar popes.  

    Quote from: Fr. Wathen
    However, even though the hierarchy cannot take legal action against an heretical pope, all of them together, or any one of them in particular, can condemn his teaching; they can accuse him before God's tribunal, warn him of his sins, and remind him of the divine wrath. Should this measure fail to produce any correction, they can denounce him before his subjects, the Catholic faithful, and warn them that they are not to listen to his teaching. Indeed, not only may the prelates of the Church do this, they have a most serious obligation to do it, an obligation which is as grave as the heresies are pernicious and scandalous. And if they fail to do this, they become a party to the pope's crimes, and will most certainly share in his punishment.

    Moreover, where the bishops default in their solemn duty to protect the Church and God's Little Sheep, the priests and the laypeople have not the right, but the duty, to raise their voices against an heretical pontiff. They not only raise their voices to God in prayer for the misguided man, but they also speak out to the bishops and the priests, and among themselves so as to warn their brothers and sisters in Christ that the plague of heresy has infected even their Holy Father, and has rendered him dangerous and unclean.


    Nevertheless, prelates have determined to judge the Pope if he did not recant heretical beliefs (e.g., John XXII denied the general judgment, and the cardinals were going to declare him a heretic, until at last recanted).

    PS: Note that they did not say he lost the chair for publicly harboring an heretical belief.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline andysloan

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    Anti - Pope
    « Reply #12 on: December 25, 2013, 06:30:06 PM »
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  • Apocalypse 13:10-11

    "And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns, like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.  And he executed all the power of the former beast in his sight; and he caused the earth, and them that dwell therein, to adore the first beast, whose wound to death was healed."



    Shortly before he died, St. Francis of Assisi called together his followers and warned them of the coming troubles, saying:

    1. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.

    2. The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.

    3. Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.

    4. There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.

    5. Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.

    6. Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. but the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head, [Christ] these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.

    7. Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days JESUS CHRIST WILL SEND THEM NOT A TRUE PASTOR, BUT A DESTROYER."

    (Except for breaking up the narrative into numbered paragraphs and adding bold print for emphasis, the prophecy is presented without any alteration, as given in the Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi, Washbourne, 1882, pp. 248-250)

    Offline andysloan

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    Anti - Pope
    « Reply #13 on: December 25, 2013, 06:41:12 PM »
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  • "The prophecies of the Apocalypse show that Satan will imitate the Church of Christ (Catholic Church) to deceive mankind; he will set up a church of satan in opposition to the Church of Christ. Antichrist will assume the role of Messias; his prophet will act the part of Pope, and there will be imitations of the Sacraments of the Church. There will also be lying wonders in imitation wrought in the Church."

    Published in 1927 by Father E. Sylvester Berry in his book, The Church of Christ: An Apologetic and Dogmatic Treatise.




    The apostasy of the city of Rome from the vicar of Christ and its destruction by Antichrist may be thoughts very new to many Catholics, that I think it well to recite the text of theologians of greatest repute. First Malvenda, who writes expressly on the subject, states as the opinion of Ribera, Gaspar Melus, Biegas, Suarrez, Bellarmine and Bosius that Rome shall apostatize from the Faith, drive away the Vicar of Christ and return to its ancient paganism. ...Then the Church shall be scattered, driven into the wilderness, and shall be for a time, as it was in the beginning, invisible; hidden in catacombs, in dens, in mountains, in lurking places; for a time it shall be swept, as it were from the face of the earth. Such is the universal testimony of the Fathers of the early Church.”- Henry Edward Cardinal Manning (1808-1892), The Present Crisis of the Holy See, 1861, London: Burns and Lambert, pp. 88-90  

    Cardinal Manning was a high ranking official of the Anglican church and achieved notoriety when he converted to Catholicism in the 19th century. He was a staunch supporter of papal infallibility and a close friend of Pope Leo XIII.


    Offline Ambrose

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    Anti - Pope
    « Reply #14 on: December 26, 2013, 03:06:18 AM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: SeanJohnson

    In saner times, he would have been summoned before the Inquisition to explain his comments, and a judgment/command rendered regarding them.


    Actually, this has never been an option since there is no tribunal within the Church with the right to pass judgment against the pope.

    The only action available for his subjects to take against him is summarized below, beyond that, nothing can legally be done against the anti-Catholic actions of the conciliar popes.  

    Quote from: Fr. Wathen
    However, even though the hierarchy cannot take legal action against an heretical pope, all of them together, or any one of them in particular, can condemn his teaching; they can accuse him before God's tribunal, warn him of his sins, and remind him of the divine wrath. Should this measure fail to produce any correction, they can denounce him before his subjects, the Catholic faithful, and warn them that they are not to listen to his teaching. Indeed, not only may the prelates of the Church do this, they have a most serious obligation to do it, an obligation which is as grave as the heresies are pernicious and scandalous. And if they fail to do this, they become a party to the pope's crimes, and will most certainly share in his punishment.

    Moreover, where the bishops default in their solemn duty to protect the Church and God's Little Sheep, the priests and the laypeople have not the right, but the duty, to raise their voices against an heretical pontiff. They not only raise their voices to God in prayer for the misguided man, but they also speak out to the bishops and the priests, and among themselves so as to warn their brothers and sisters in Christ that the plague of heresy has infected even their Holy Father, and has rendered him dangerous and unclean.


    Nevertheless, prelates have determined to judge the Pope if he did not recant heretical beliefs (e.g., John XXII denied the general judgment, and the cardinals were going to declare him a heretic, until at last recanted).

    PS: Note that they did not say he lost the chair for publicly harboring an heretical belief.


    John XXII was only postulating his idea on the general judgment as a theological opinion, and did correct his position when he realized that he was mistaken. here are some good sources to read on the subject:



    The Catholic Encyclopedia (Particular Judgment) states:

    Quote
    Pope John XXII (1316-1334) at Avignon, as a private theologian, seems to have supported this view, but that he gave it any official sanction is a fable invented by the Fallibilists.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08550a.htm

    The CE (John XXII) states:

    Quote
    In the last years of John's pontificate there arose a dogmatic conflict about the Beatific Vision, which was brought on by himself, and which his enemies made use of to discredit him. Before his elevation to the Holy See, he had written a work on this question, in which he stated that the souls of the blessed departed do not see God until after the Last Judgment. After becoming pope, he advanced the same teaching in his sermons. In this he met with strong opposition, many theologians, who adhered to the usual opinion that the blessed departed did see God before the Resurrection of the Body and the Last Judgment, even calling his view heretical. A great commotion was aroused in the University of Paris when the General of the Minorites and a Dominican tried to disseminate there the pope's view. Pope John wrote to King Philip IV on the matter (November, 1333), and emphasized the fact that, as long as the Holy See had not given a decision, the theologians enjoyed perfect freedom in this matter. In December, 1333, the theologians at Paris, after a consultation on the question, decided in favour of the doctrine that the souls of the blessed departed saw God immediately after death or after their complete purification; at the same time they pointed out that the pope had given no decision on this question but only advanced his personal opinion, and now petitioned the pope to confirm their decision. John appointed a commission at Avignon to study the writings of the Fathers, and to discuss further the disputed question. In a consistory held on 3 January, 1334, the pope explicitly declared that he had never meant to teach aught contrary to Holy Scripture or the rule of faith and in fact had not intended to give any decision whatever. Before his death he withdrew his former opinion, and declared his belief that souls separated from their bodies enjoyed in heaven the Beatific Vision.


    Also read a good history of the incident here:

    History of The Church, Volume III, Hughes, 1947. found HERE
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic