Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: stevusmagnus on July 18, 2012, 09:27:47 PM
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Since when do Traditional Catholics recognize "Ordinary Time?"
I thought that was only in the NO calendar.
http://angeluspress.org/Audio-Video/Sundays-in-Ordinary-Time
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Since when do Traditional Catholics recognize "Ordinary Time?"
I thought that was only in the NO calendar.
http://angeluspress.org/Audio-Video/Sundays-in-Ordinary-Time
From the Angelus Site:
This release delivers a stirring collection of Gregorian chants, celebrating "Ordinary Time" - the season of the liturgical year between the Feast of the Baptism of Our Lord and Lent, and from Pentecost Sunday until the beginning of the Advent season.
Ordinary Time is the thread of the liturgical year, commemorating each Sunday with the Resurrection and the Paschal mystery.
Expertly sung by the world-renowned monastic choir of Solesmes, France, this recording enables listeners to participate in a rich experience of the church's liturgical year.
The monastic apostate choir of Solesmes! :facepalm:
Catholics don't sell Catholics modern recordings from "Solesmes".
Nefarious Ordo recordings from the formerly Catholic "monastery" of Solesmes is more offensive than Christmas Carols from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
Our Lady of La Salette, Ora Pro Nobis!
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Most of the chants used in the NO 'Ordinary Time' can also be found in the Traditional calendar. I wouldn't make a fuss about that. It is disconcerting however to say Mormons are more acceptable than Solesmes. On the other hand, I highly recommend the recordings by Schola Bellarmina, also sold by Angelus Press.
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Seems like its for Ordinary Time in the Muslim Rite!
(http://angeluspress.org/image/cache/data/products/catalog1952-800x800.jpg)
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Angelus Press admit it was an 'oversight' on their part and removed it. Now it is back on their website for sale. I wouldn't make any purchases from Angelus Press but this is just a personal opinion of mine.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=10232
And here's where I mentioned it, in Sept 2010.
laudamus te contacted Angelus Press, and got this reply:
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This was an oversight on our part. We have been adding certain selections from the Solesmes collection to our website, and one of our employees accidentally added this one unknowingly.
Thank you for your e-mail. The CD has been removed from the site.
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In their statement on the General Chapter mentioned on another thread they state clearly "We have determined and approved the necessary conditions for an eventual canonical normalization".
It will be quite normal for Angelus Press to be selling such products. The SSPX will have to sell products associated with 'Ordinary Time'. They will have no choice in the matter.
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I found this incredible, but I was curious to see for myself. So I went to the link provided and this item definitely started to come up on the internet. Then it simply stopped loading all the way. Since I'm on a dial-up connection, this is not so unusual. Normally, I just have to refresh once or twice before the webpage fully loads, but when I clicked the refresh button, a new page came up saying that the item was not found.
This occurred at about 7:45 a.m., EDT. So apparently, the SSPX took action to remove the product at that time.
However, Angelus Press does have an item called: "SET: The Solesmes Collection" which contains 19 discs. The webpage does not list all 19 discs and the photo only shows a few of the discs. The only way to discover if the "Ordinary Time" disc is included in the set is, most likely, to purchase the entire set.
I think I'll pass on that. If someone is looking for CDs of chants, there is a website called Chant CD (at http://www.chantcd.com/) that, perhaps, would be better. There does not seem to be any Ordinary Time CDs from Solesmes Monastery there.
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Yep, Angelus pulled the page for that offering.
What a surprise.
For all those "sermons" about staying off internet fora, Menzigen seems to be watching them like a hawk.
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So apparently, the SSPX took action to remove the product at that time.
As they did in 2010. So why was it placed on the website in the first place? Who placed it there and who removed it?
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I can't find the reply I received from Louis Tofari from a couple of years ago. His reply was far from convincing. Why are these items added to the website in the first place? With the Fr Rostand "Against the Rumours" videos, I'm not so surprised regarding the American District and Angelus Press.
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The reply from Louis Tofari from 2010.
Though a somewhat contemporary term, there is really nothing objectionable to using "Sundays in Ordinary Time", to describe the periods encompassed by the Sundays after Epiphany and Sundays after Pentecost; in fact, the term "Per annum" (through the year) was often used to denote these periods.
Furthermore, there is an authentic notion of the Paschal Mystery, which as the CD's text rightly states, is the celebration of the Our Lord's Resurrection on every Sunday (which is a feast of that redemptive mystery). The problem with the liberal notion of the Paschal Mystery is that it diminishes the necessary conjoined focus, or memorial, of Our Lord's Passion. However, the CD's wording is not conforming to the modernist notion.
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http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=10232
They already removed Fr. Fahey's works, didn't they? I don't pay that much attention to their catalog, but if anyone does, have they noticed more of this trend? And like MC says, has anyone called to see if they're just out of stock?
I checked earlier and whilst nothing comes up in the search box of the Angelus Press website, they do list The Kingship of Christ and Organised Naturalism under books on Social Doctrine.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=10232
Well, I just phoned Angelus press. All that the rather nervous-sounding young man on the phone could tell me is that I Accuse the Council is out of stock and they therefore removed it from their website. He said that he could not offer any time-frame for when they would be printing more and recommended that I contact Society chapels with bookstores near me to see if I can get a copy from them. I did not get the impression that it will be reprinted any time soon since he said it has not been scheduled for a reprinting at this time.
I may try following-up with the editor Mr. Vogel, although I was met with stony silence the last time I wrote to him (complaining about the over-the-top "nαzιsm is the worse evil ever in the history of the universe" articles by some German chap) so I am not overly optimistic I'll get a response.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=10232
I have now emailed Mr. Vogel, the editor of Angelus Press (also of "Against the Rumours" fame). We'll see what response, if any, I receive.
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Now is the time to keep your wits about you.
But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?
~ Luke 18:8
Traditional Catholicism is fading fast. The plague of ignorance is neutralizing the resistance. Ignorance begets a multitude of evils, not the least of which is false obedience. The fight is negligible with new the generation and many of the old guard have either been brainwashed over the past 20+ years or were only as good as the leadership of yesteryear.
There are some well intentioned "trad" souls (albeit ignorant) who will attend the NO if they can't find a valid Mass on Sunday.
The Nefarious Ordo, in Latin, in a Gothic Cathedral (or Monastery in France, or St. Peter's in Rome) with all the bells and smells is more odious in its effects than "Fr." Bob's guitar "mass".
An analogy would be the harlot in fine clothing. Appearing as a something she isn't (namely a lady), she is more likely to overcome her noble victim (the Faith).
If you haven't read "A Vindication of the Bull 'Apostolicae Curae'"A letter on Anglican Orders by the Cardinal Archbishop and Bishops of the Province of Westminster[/i]", you must. If you've read it, read it again, and as a spiritual work of mercy, forward it on to everyone on your mailing list. It is only 68 pages (including the title page). It is truly a docuмent for these times, as +Fellay and his ilk continue to drive the herd to market/rome.
http://www.angelfire.com/nj/malleus/PDFs/Vindication-AC.pdf
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I really appreciate these updates, because having specific information like this is helpful to inform others.
It is still quite common to find traditional Catholics who think the SSPX is beyond
any risk of modernizing, since the priests are all so good, and they would never
do anything like that.
We should be keeping a running list of the facts they should be told -- the things they
don't want to hear:
~ +Fellay unlawfully banned +Williamson from the GCs
~ The GC unlawfully voted 29 to 9 in favor of upholding the unlawful ban
~ +Fellay has been giving messages of equivocation toward Vatican II
~ Any SSPX priest who speaks about these things is punished immediately
~ The faithful who protect such priests are being expelled from the SSPX
~ Angelus Press has removed I Accuse the Council from their catalog
~ I Accuse the Council is not scheduled for re-printing
~ Sundays in Ordinary Time is used to describe products, and defended by Angelus Press
~ When asked telling questions, Angelus Press equivocates or does not answern
Don't be surprised, that when you tell them these things, and they ask you where
you heard about it, and you tell them "on the Internet," that they would then
laugh, and tell you not to believe what you see on the Internet!
I have one friend who told me that, and I asked him, "Do you have a minute?"
And he said, "Sure." I then pulled out my cell phone and told him I have a person
to whom he might like to speak, available by phone, who can describe how Fr.
Cardozo was expelled from the SSPX for denouncing the "deal" with a Modernist
Rome, and then when the faithful have offered him help, just like our faithful did
for our own Fr. Schell in 1975, then the SSPX District Superior has gone out of his
way to expel those faithful from the Society. He didn't want to use my phone. All I
have to do now, is hold up my cell phone and he stops laughing at "the Internet."
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The reply from Louis Tofari from 2010.
Though a somewhat contemporary term, there is really nothing objectionable to using "Sundays in Ordinary Time", to describe the periods encompassed by the Sundays after Epiphany and Sundays after Pentecost; in fact, the term "Per annum" (through the year) was often used to denote these periods.
Furthermore, there is an authentic notion of the Paschal Mystery, which as the CD's text rightly states, is the celebration of the Our Lord's Resurrection on every Sunday (which is a feast of that redemptive mystery). The problem with the liberal notion of the Paschal Mystery is that it diminishes the necessary conjoined focus, or memorial, of Our Lord's Passion. However, the CD's wording is not conforming to the modernist notion.
Mr. Tofari is one of the SSPX's "lay spin guys".
He's previously tried to justify Bp. Fellay's hiring of the Jєωιѕн zio-lawyer, Max Krah, by claiming the SG had the right to bring-in professional help.
Bp. Fellay opened the doors to the the Conciliar Church infection and the speed of which the contagion is spreading within the Society is amazing.
Funny, how the SSPX soft-liner (sell-outs) have to "watch their backs" by tracking criticisms of their actions on CatholicInfo and similar forums.
I wonder if they have trouble sleeping at night?
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http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=10232
They already removed Fr. Fahey's works, didn't they? I don't pay that much attention to their catalog, but if anyone does, have they noticed more of this trend? And like MC says, has anyone called to see if they're just out of stock?
I checked earlier and whilst nothing comes up in the search box of the Angelus Press website, they do list The Kingship of Christ and Organised Naturalism under books on Social Doctrine.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=10232
Well, I just phoned Angelus press. All that the rather nervous-sounding young man on the phone could tell me is that I Accuse the Council is out of stock and they therefore removed it from their website. He said that he could not offer any time-frame for when they would be printing more and recommended that I contact Society chapels with bookstores near me to see if I can get a copy from them. I did not get the impression that it will be reprinted any time soon since he said it has not been scheduled for a reprinting at this time.
I may try following-up with the editor Mr. Vogel, although I was met with stony silence the last time I wrote to him (complaining about the over-the-top "nαzιsm is the worse evil ever in the history of the universe" articles by some German chap) so I am not overly optimistic I'll get a response.
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=10232
I have now emailed Mr. Vogel, the editor of Angelus Press (also of "Against the Rumours" fame). We'll see what response, if any, I receive.
Angelus Press has an e-book available, called The Catechism of the Crisis in
the Church by Fr. Matthias Gaudron, translated from German, revised and
edited by the Dominican Fathers of Avrille (aren't they the ones whom +Fellay
punished by not ordaining their deacons in June?)
Is anyone familiar with both, this and I Accuse the Council, so as to say
what's in the latter that would be more objectionable for a making a "deal" ?
Why don't they make I Accuse the Council available by e-book?!
They might sell MORE of them that way!! Isn't it all about selling copy??
Maybe +Fellay made a "deal" already, something he forgot to mention at the
General Chapter (he said he "shared everything," but that doesn't necessarily
mean he explained all the verbal communication he has had with Rome). He may
have agreed, for example, to not re-print that objectionable book. And then he
may have instructed Angelus Press that not only is it not to be reprinted, but
anyone who mentions that fact to the public will be fired without warning!
We ought to keep an eye on who gets fired from Angelus these days: they might
be a wealth of information!
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The problem is still this: even if they removed the offending CD (which they didn't), they still have the post-Vatican II Solesmes recordings (all of them on Angelus Press), Gregorian Chant done a la Novus Ordo, with Dom Claire directing (Introit having not Gloria Patri, the Alleluia Chant having only two Alleluias, and on the Requiem Mass CD, no Dies Irae, etc.). Now I find nothing wrong with the Solesmes singing (probably except their nasality), but it gives the impression that the SSPX are tolerant toward certain Novus Ordo groups.
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The problem is still this: even if they removed the offending CD (which they didn't), they still have the post-Vatican II Solesmes recordings (all of them on Angelus Press), Gregorian Chant done a la Novus Ordo, with Dom Claire directing (Introit having not Gloria Patri, the Alleluia Chant having only two Alleluias, and on the Requiem Mass CD, no Dies Irae, etc.). Now I find nothing wrong with the Solesmes singing (probably except their nasality), but it gives the impression that the SSPX are tolerant toward certain Novus Ordo groups.
Thanks, QVP, I didn't know this Solemnes CD is missing things:
~ Introit has no Gloria Patri
~ Alleluia chant has only two alleluias, instead of three
~ Requiem Mass CD has no Dies irae
But you have "etc" after that. Is there more??
What about the other propers: are they changed, like the Collect/Prayer (if it has
Introit there must be Collect too), or Graduale or Offertory or Communion/Post
Communion? Anything else? I'd like to know without finding one to figure it out.
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I'm saying all the modern Solesmes recordings (all of Angelus Press offerings of Solesmes are modern) follow the Novus Ordo propers, with those things I mentioned peculiar to the Novus Ordo. "Etc." means, among other things, using different propers. Not that I mind (some are more ancient than some of the one in the older rite), but it makes for more options, and the last thing we need is more options. And also they follow a newer Solesmes interpretation, as distinguished from the classic Solesmes (exemplified in the Schola Bellarmina and older Benedictine recordings).
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I'm saying all the modern Solesmes recordings (all of Angelus Press offerings of Solesmes are modern) follow the Novus Ordo propers, with those things I mentioned peculiar to the Novus Ordo. "Etc." means, among other things, using different propers. Not that I mind (some are more ancient than some of the one in the older rite), but it makes for more options, and the last thing we need is more options. And also they follow a newer Solesmes interpretation, as distinguished from the classic Solesmes (exemplified in the Schola Bellarmina and older Benedictine recordings).
Okay. I guess that's all right. I was hoping you might be able to easily list the
differences, but if not, I can deal with it. I might have to ask some people I know
who are involved with the Novus Ordo music. I'm reluctant to do that because it
usually results in an argument!
But you say they use a "different interpretation." Can you provide any clues as to
what that is, for example? It's a musical interpretation, I would presume.
Do they use a faster tempo? Is their phrasing different? Do they end their phrases
with a loud volume, and make abrupt cut-offs? Do they give the individual neums
a more constant time value, or a less consistent time value? Do they somehow
introduce a pop-style to the lyric melody, or use harmony?
I get the feeling that they might use Chantacleer-type idioms.
One problem I have with the Schola Bellarmina is they always (almost) use an
organ accompaniment. This is technically incorrect for Gregorian Chant. I know it
helps them to stay in tune, but there are other techniques to keep intonation
accurate: especially that of the proper forming of the TONE in each voice, which
then done well, evokes perfect adherence to pitch, even over a long chant of
several minutes' duration. But the Schola does not adhere to this principle, nor
are they willing to learn it, apparently. It seems to be an element of pride there.
But their overall product is pretty good, otherwise.
Thank you for your help!
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They use the researches of Dom Eugene Cardine, who developed Gregorian semiology, which is quite different from the interpretation of the older Solesmes, which the SSPX uses (the rules are in the Liber Usualis). Some Benedictine monasteries opted to stay with the older one, like Notre Dame de Fontgombault and Clear Creek. But I guess you're right; the only people who would notice the difference would be musically inclined.
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Thanks. I'll check into that. I appreciate the clues!
I know some young people who are interested in learning Chant and I'd like to
know what references to cite, if necessary. You can hardly tell them that so-and-so
of a local parish is a good Chant master, because they are getting pretty scarce
these days, and the misinformed are establishing a kind of "new tradition." It
seems to me that we are seeing the demise of Gregorian Chant art in our own
generation.
BTW I hope you will find a few minutes to respond in the Resistance sub-forum on
your old thread I pulled up, on the Jews.
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The problem is still this: even if they removed the offending CD (which they didn't), they still have the post-Vatican II Solesmes recordings (all of them on Angelus Press), Gregorian Chant done a la Novus Ordo, with Dom Claire directing (Introit having not Gloria Patri, the Alleluia Chant having only two Alleluias, and on the Requiem Mass CD, no Dies Irae, etc.). Now I find nothing wrong with the Solesmes singing (probably except their nasality), but it gives the impression that the SSPX are tolerant toward certain Novus Ordo groups.
Thanks, QVP, I didn't know this Solemnes CD is missing things:
~ Introit has no Gloria Patri
~ Alleluia chant has only two alleluias, instead of three
~ Requiem Mass CD has no Dies irae
But you have "etc" after that. Is there more??
What about the other propers: are they changed, like the Collect/Prayer (if it has
Introit there must be Collect too), or Graduale or Offertory or Communion/Post
Communion? Anything else? I'd like to know without finding one to figure it out.
I have one for Maundy Thursday. The chant seems traditional enough. It has the Introit, Collect, Gradual, Offertory, Communion/Post Communion as you inquired. But it also has the Second Reading and General Intercessions of the NO. No organ music and the longer tones one would expect to hear with Gregorian Chant. I got it before I realized what I was purchasing. All in all, the music itself is beautiful.
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We really need to stop giving any credence to the Bastardized chant of the Nefarious Ordo.... it's just plain offensive!
The monastic apostate choir of Solesmes! :facepalm:
Catholics don't sell Catholics modern recordings from "Solesmes".
Nefarious Ordo recordings from the formerly Catholic "monastery" of Solesmes is more offensive than Christmas Carols from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
Our Lady of La Salette, Ora Pro Nobis!
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We really need to stop giving any credence to the Bastardized chant of the Nefarious Ordo.... it's just plain offensive!
The monastic apostate choir of Solesmes! :facepalm:
Catholics don't sell Catholics modern recordings from "Solesmes".
Nefarious Ordo recordings from the formerly Catholic "monastery" of Solesmes is more offensive than Christmas Carols from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
Our Lady of La Salette, Ora Pro Nobis!
True enough said. I was just relaying what is on the CD and how the music is performed. I only listened to the music once and skipped over the NO parts. I didn't listen to it again until reading Neil's question. We should always be on the look-out for truly Traditional CD's. Sorry if I appeared to encourage it.
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For all those "sermons" about staying off internet fora, Menzigen seems to be watching them like a hawk.
We have noticed that hypocrisy as well. I was told by a reliable source that Fr. Duverger (assistant to Fr. Rostand) who visited their chapel recently, said in a sermon that he spends many hours every day scanning the internet for talk of the SSPX on forums etc..- Shocking! If you are in the right and you know it- why would you need to know what is being said? Normally those following God's Will have the security to do what is right and not spend time looking over their shoulder to see what the opposition is doing. Why this obsession with silencing the opposition?
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About 2 yrs ago I was sitting in an SSPX chapel where the visiting priest started his sermon with "this, the 22nd Sunday in Ordinary time" and never thought to correct himself or a thing- for the Trads it was the 12th Sunday after Pentecost (I think-memory may have it wrong). Then, not long after that, a fairly newly ordained sspx priest was visiting and gave the most liberal sermon- backing down and walking back nearly all I'd learned as a trad from SSPX- No. From this view, they are 'watering it all back down'....SSPX should change their name to: "Church of the 60's"
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For all those "sermons" about staying off internet fora, Menzigen seems to be watching them like a hawk.
We have noticed that hypocrisy as well. I was told by a reliable source that Fr. Duverger (assistant to Fr. Rostand) who visited their chapel recently, said in a sermon that he spends many hours every day scanning the internet for talk of the SSPX on forums etc..- Shocking! If you are in the right and you know it - why would you need to know what is being said? Normally those following God's Will have the security to do what is right and not spend time looking over their shoulder to see what the opposition is doing. Why this obsession with silencing the opposition?
It's right out of Rules for Radicals.
Silence the opposition, suppress resistance, eliminate your opponents.
Then have an election.
Think of it as one of the "errors of Russia" that OLF warned against.