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Author Topic: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance  (Read 1512 times)

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Offline Matthew

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An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
« on: October 06, 2018, 09:04:18 AM »
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  • Can you honestly say the SSPX would rather be acceptable to the Resistance than to Modernist Rome?

    If the SSPX had to choose, who would they go with? Pope Francis (the heretic) and the Conciliar (HERETICAL) hierarchy, or Bishop Williamson and the other 3 Resistance bishops?

    I believe the answer is obvious. The SSPX preaches much more against the Resistance these days than they do against the Conciliar Church. SSPX Faithful are more likely to think the Indult or even Novus Ordo is OK rather than think going to the local Resistance Mass center is OK.

    What does that tell you?

    Keeping in mind that the Resistance isn't some kind of heretical group with a new doctrine or denial of some dogma. The Resistance is simply the classic SSPX position, nothing more, nothing less. Why shouldn't the SSPX prefer that to the heretics in Modernist Rome? But I can't say that they do. I think they really prefer Rome with all its heresy.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
    « Reply #1 on: October 06, 2018, 10:38:42 AM »
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  • The SSPX preaches much more against the Resistance these days than they do against the Conciliar Church. SSPX Faithful are more likely to think the Indult or even Novus Ordo is OK rather than think going to the local Resistance Mass center is OK.

    What does that tell you?

    Very astute observation, Matthew.  I agree completely.  It's almost as if they hold the Resistance as being "schismatic" for being in the same position that the SSPX had historically been all along.  This dovetails with +Fellay's recent speech to the effect of, "Hey, look, we're not schismatic [any more?] because Rome says we're not and recognizes us as Catholic."  I was beat up on for finding fault with +Fellay's speech, but that's essentially what he was saying.  And this observation of yours, Matthew, lines up perfectly with that.  It's very hard to distinguish neo-SSPX from ICK or FSSP anymore.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
    « Reply #2 on: October 06, 2018, 11:08:10 AM »
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  • I suppose that I qualify as "SSPX faithful" since I usually attend Mass at an SSPX centre, but I wouldn't describe myself as "against the Resistance".  I just want to attend the TLM.  

    It's true that I would attend a diocesan TLM (technically not an "Indult" since Summorum Pontificuм) but if my only choices were Resistance and Novus Ordo, I probably would choose Resistance.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
    « Reply #3 on: October 06, 2018, 11:54:21 AM »
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  • It's true that I would attend a diocesan TLM (technically not an "Indult" since Summorum Pontificuм) but if my only choices were Resistance and Novus Ordo, I probably would choose Resistance.
    It's nice to have choices.  Mine is novus ordo or nothing.  I tried the novus ordo 20 years ago.  It was horrible then; I can only imagine now.  If I didn't know better, I'd be one of the millions of ex-Catholics going to conservative Protestant "churches" in the wake of Vat. 2.  At least their moral standards are better!  

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
    « Reply #4 on: October 06, 2018, 01:09:40 PM »
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  • I just wonder what the SSPX (officially, or an individual priest locally) would advise their faithful to do in a hypothetical scenario:


    Quote
    A terrorist attack happens, and planes are grounded for 1 week; afterwards riots and other unrest cause the outage to last 2 weeks longer, for a total of 3 weeks.
    A few places in the USA do not have a resident priest, but they do have a Resistance-affiliated chapel close by. Let's say these places have Mass for whatever reason (the priest is stranded there, or Bp. Zendejas does a lot of driving, etc.) These same places ALL have an Indult or FSSP option.
    The Internet is still up and running, and so the SSPX is able to advise all its faithful on where they should attend Mass (if at all).

    I honestly think the SSPX would advise people to go to the FSSP/Indult, or perhaps advise them to stay home and pray the Rosary, but I can't see them approving attendance at the Resistance-affiliated chapels.

    The neo-SSPX fears the Resistance the most, because it represents the SSPX in the past -- and if the Faithful check it out for themselves, they might notice that A) they're not the evil bogeymen that SSPX.org and Angelus Press have made them out to be, B) the chapels are just like SSPX chapels were in the past, C) some things have changed in the SSPX recently, and not for the better.

    Needless to say, the SSPX taking such a stand is ridiculous, but reality is reality.
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    Offline Carissima

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    Re: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
    « Reply #5 on: October 06, 2018, 01:55:03 PM »
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  • The neo-SSPX fears the Resistance the most, because it represents the SSPX in the past -- and if the Faithful check it out for themselves, they might notice that A) they're not the evil bogeymen that SSPX.org and Angelus Press have made them out to be, B) the chapels are just like SSPX chapels were in the past, C) some things have changed in the SSPX recently, and not for the better.

    That is not entirely true..the resistance has its problems too.
    For one thing it splintered rather quickly, and soon after the get-go. And according to Bp Williamson it is to be known as a ‘loose association’, if I’m quoting HE correctly. So what is there to fear?

    I don’t blame people for standing afar off while priests and bishops scatter all over the map. And especially so, when they all have so many different ideas on how to ‘resist’ the SSPX errors in the first place.
    And believe me, I’ve been here from close to the beginning..at least from 2013 and have watched it evolve along the way. These things always do, as people find their bearings amongst so much chaos.

    I really hope you don’t think that it’s all settled now into some little comfortable corner that anyone can just mosey on over to. It’s not that simple. Many do not have resistance options. 

    And Catholics definitely do not want to be told they can’t go to Mass at this Church, or that priest, or this bishop, because if they do then they’re a modernist, or are going to lose their Faith. 
    And that is what some in the resistance do. I admit I was one of them, and I still see it today. 

    I do attend Mass at an SSPX chapel, and it is for The Sacraments for myself and my children. They need them and so do I. If that is selfish on my part, then so be it. I receive Jesus in the Eucharist on behalf of The Church so I hope it benefits us all. 

    I pray for unity always. 

    God bless  :pray:

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
    « Reply #6 on: October 06, 2018, 02:33:15 PM »
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  • Quote
    It's true that I would attend a diocesan TLM (technically not an "Indult" since Summorum Pontificuм)
    Summorum Pontificuм is just an expansion of the indult of JPII.  All diocesan latin masses are still indult because Summorum Pontificuм requires that one accept the novus ordo as the ordinary/normal form of mass and also that you accept that the novus ordo and the latin are equal (i.e. "two usages of the same rite").  Also, in order to have the latin mass the bishop must approve it.  Yes, ANY diocesan latin mass (including FSSP, ICK) is still an indult.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
    « Reply #7 on: October 06, 2018, 02:40:01 PM »
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  • Quote
    That is not entirely true..the resistance has its problems too.
    All the "problems" you listed have nothing to do with the liturgy or keeping the Faith.  The new-sspx, meanwhile, is allowing modernism/heresy into their liturgy, their sermons, and their schools.  Quite the difference!  A pure, unadulterated Mass said in the middle of a field, on top of a rock is infinitely more pleasing to God than an indult TLM said by a modernist priest in the most beautiful church in the world.  Faith will get you to heaven.  "Smells and bells" will not.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
    « Reply #8 on: October 06, 2018, 03:50:14 PM »
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  • Summorum Pontificuм is just an expansion of the indult of JPII.  All diocesan latin masses are still indult because Summorum Pontificuм requires that one accept the novus ordo as the ordinary/normal form of mass and also that you accept that the novus ordo and the latin are equal (i.e. "two usages of the same rite").  Also, in order to have the latin mass the bishop must approve it.  Yes, ANY diocesan latin mass (including FSSP, ICK) is still an indult.
    For practical purposes, that is true enough.  I was speaking of a technicality:  In 1984, the CDW wrote Quattuor Abhinc Annos which granted an indult to bishops to permit specific priests and groups to say the TLM.  There had also earlier been the so-called "Agatha Christie" indult for the TLM in England.  

    Indult has a technical definition within Canon Law.  It means allowing an exception to legal norms.  Summorum Pontificuм, rather than saying the TLM is an allowable exception to Church law, declared that the TLM had really been licit all along because the 1962 Mass was "never abrogated".

    SP used a different legal mechanism for permitting the TLM rather than an indult, so it is technically the wrong term.  In practice, as you say, it makes little difference.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
    « Reply #9 on: October 06, 2018, 05:29:09 PM »
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  • Good point.  In reality, “SP” is a legal contradiction.  It admitted that Quo Primum was not changed, therefore the TLM was never outlawed and always permitted.  Then, it contradicts Quo Primum by putting restrictions on the TLM (ie your bishop has to give permission, you have to agree that the Novus Ordo is equal, etc).

    Legally, “SP” validates the entire post-V2 Traditionalist movement.  For that, I’m thankful that +Benedict issued it.  Unfortunately, most people read “SP” outside of and ignoring the supremacy of Quo Primum’s commands, so they miss the “big picture” and the factual illegality of the Novus Ordo, and consequent sinfulness of it.  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
    « Reply #10 on: October 06, 2018, 05:49:20 PM »
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  • Good point.  In reality, “SP” is a legal contradiction.  It admitted that Quo Primum was not changed, therefore the TLM was never outlawed and always permitted.  Then, it contradicts Quo Primum by putting restrictions on the TLM (ie your bishop has to give permission, you have to agree that the Novus Ordo is equal, etc).

    Legally, “SP” validates the entire post-V2 Traditionalist movement.  For that, I’m thankful that +Benedict issued it.  Unfortunately, most people read “SP” outside of and ignoring the supremacy of Quo Primum’s commands, so they miss the “big picture” and the factual illegality of the Novus Ordo, and consequent sinfulness of it.  
    Technically (yet again) Summorum Pontificuм does not admit or even mention anything about Quo Primum.  It also does not say that the bishop has to give permission.  But I don't want to derail this thread with legal technicalities that are completely irrelevant to it.  It was just something that I mentioned in passing since I am interested in that sort of thing.  We all know exactly what Matthew meant when he referred to the Indult Mass.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
    « Reply #11 on: October 06, 2018, 06:33:32 PM »
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  • Summorum Pontificuм is just an expansion of the indult of JPII.  ... Also, in order to have the latin mass the bishop must approve it.  Yes, ANY diocesan latin mass (including FSSP, ICK) is still an indult.

    No, there is a subtle difference, even though in the practical order it reduces to the same thing.  With the motu, the Tridentine Mass is permitted unless forbidden, whereas before it had been forbidden unless permitted.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
    « Reply #12 on: October 06, 2018, 11:53:44 PM »
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  • Quote
    Technically (yet again) Summorum Pontificuм does not admit or even mention anything about Quo Primum
    Directly, I agree, Quo Primum isn't mentioned, but the 1962 missal is the legal "child" of Quo Primum, so indirectly, yes, if you mention the 1962 missal you are referencing Quo Primum (and nothing else).  It's like if one mentions the "1st Amendment and free speech".  Technically, you didn't say the word "constitution" but the 1st Amendment can ONLY relate the the Constitution.  It goes without saying...  

    (p.s.  Quo Primum was printed in the first few pages of every missal for hundreds of years up until 1960.  Until then, everyone knew what this docuмent was.  Nowadays they do not, but that's because the modernists want people to stay asleep, which is why they only refer to the 1962 missal and not QP specifically).



    Quote
    With the motu, the Tridentine Mass is permitted unless forbidden, whereas before it had been forbidden unless permitted.
    Ok, yes.  But when I say SP was an expansion of the indult, i was talking about having the same conditions, which is the acceptance of the new mass.  Sorry for not being clear.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
    « Reply #13 on: October 07, 2018, 08:55:50 AM »
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  • That is not entirely true..the resistance has its problems too.
    For one thing it splintered rather quickly, and soon after the get-go. And according to Bp Williamson it is to be known as a ‘loose association’, if I’m quoting HE correctly. So what is there to fear?

    I don’t blame people for standing afar off while priests and bishops scatter all over the map. And especially so, when they all have so many different ideas on how to ‘resist’ the SSPX errors in the first place.
    And believe me, I’ve been here from close to the beginning..at least from 2013 and have watched it evolve along the way. These things always do, as people find their bearings amongst so much chaos.

    I really hope you don’t think that it’s all settled now into some little comfortable corner that anyone can just mosey on over to. It’s not that simple. Many do not have resistance options.

    And Catholics definitely do not want to be told they can’t go to Mass at this Church, or that priest, or this bishop, because if they do then they’re a modernist, or are going to lose their Faith.
    And that is what some in the resistance do. I admit I was one of them, and I still see it today.

    I do attend Mass at an SSPX chapel, and it is for The Sacraments for myself and my children. They need them and so do I. If that is selfish on my part, then so be it. I receive Jesus in the Eucharist on behalf of The Church so I hope it benefits us all.

    I pray for unity always.

    God bless  :pray:

    A very good and reasonable analysis above. I especially agree with what is written above...."That Catholics do not want to be told that they can't go to Mass at this Church, or that priest, or this bishop, because if they do they're a modernist, or are going to lose their faith." Well said!

    Are traditional Catholics really in such danger of losing their faith so easily? I can't see that. I don't recall that Resistance priests or bishops themselves are telling the faithful that they cannot attend this or that Mass for the Sacraments. It's mainly the laity who are red-lighting attendance at Mass venues other than Resistance. 

    I'm impressed with the integrity of the Resistance bishops and priests. They are strong in the Faith, and they have charity.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: An honest question for those inclined against the Resistance
    « Reply #14 on: October 07, 2018, 12:07:57 PM »
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  • SSPX Faithful are more likely to think the Indult or even Novus Ordo is OK rather than think going to the local Resistance Mass center is OK.
    Some people new to tradition may go back and forth. But I rather doubt that reasonably informed traditionalist in the SSPX would think the N.O. is OK.

    Assuming a traditional liturgy, however, I think other factors come into play. A single person, educated in the faith, might be able to tolerate one Mass location that parents could not safely take their children to. The individual priest could matter in various ways, too. And one's personal background could as well.