Author Topic: An agreement that is discreet, but not secret  (Read 3865 times)

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Offline labicanus

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An agreement that is discreet, but not secret
« on: January 25, 2013, 04:59:06 PM »
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  • An agreement that is “discrete, but not secret”


    The two levels of meeting: dialogue that is “diplomatic” and that which is “doctrinal”.



    Introduction

    In December 2011, an interesting book was published, written by Reverend Father Michael Lelong of the ‘Society of the White Fathers’ (Emeritus Professor at the Institute of the Theological Science of Religion in Paris, Laureate in Literature & qualified in Arabic Language & Literature,). The book is entitled Pour la necessaire reconciliation; le Groupe de Reflexion Entre Catholiques (GREC), Nouvelles Editions Latines, Paris1, and is a stimulating read, that I recommend to all.

    Private & Discrete Meetings

    The “White Father”, ordained priest in 1948, recounts the history of the dialogues held by the “Groupe de Reflexion Entre Catholiques(Group for Reflection between Catholics) (GREC), with certain leading members of the Society of Saint Pius X, dialogues which he defines as “discrete, but not secret” (p.29), with the view to a full agreement between the SSPX and the Vatican; this after having accepted the interpretation of the Second Vatican Council in the light of Tradition, or the Hermeneutic of Continuity, and having received the freeing of the Traditional Mass, the lifting of the excommunications and full canonical systemisation.

    Padre Lelong defines himself as a lover both of the traditional Liturgy (p.25) and at the same time, of the Second Vatican Council, especially as regards the interreligious relations promoted by Nostra Aetate, the ‘Declaration on the Rapport between the Catholic Church and non-Christian religions’ (p.17), as well as Gaudium et spes, Unitatis Redintegratio, Dignitatis Humanae and  Sacrosantum Concilium (pp. 75-82), all of which, in his opinion, are perfectly readable in the light of Tradition. He, along with other leading traditionalists brought together in GREC, has sought to bring forward this dialogue that he calls ‘more charitable and diplomatic than it is doctrinal’ (pp.21-2), in order to arrive at an agreement as to the compatibility between Vatican II and Tradition.

    One of the figures who inspired the forming of GREC was the ex-French ambassador for Italy, Dr. Gilbert Perol (d.1995), who from 1963 to 1967, had already exercised an important role at Eliseo alongside President Charles de Gaulle, afterwards being elected ‘General Secretary’ for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and then ambassador for Tunisia, Tokyo & lastly Rome from 1988 to 1991 (p. 17 & 24).

    The French ambassador was of the same opinion as Father Lelong, that a number of texts of the Second Vatican Council were in themselves good, but had been wrongly interpreted by some of the Progressives (p.18) and that, in order to arrive at the “necessary reconciliation” with the Traditionalists, one needs to interpret these texts in the light of Tradition, or according to the hermeneutic of continuity, remaining faithful to the traditional Liturgy (p. 18).

    With this firmly in mind, that Vatican II cannot be rejected as a whole (p. 22), but rather that its teachings have been misapplied, above all in matters of Liturgy (p. 22), from 1988 (the year in which the four bishops were consecrated by Mons. Lefebvre, as well as that in which Perol arrived in Rome in his role as ambassador), the French ambassador did all in his power to repair this fracture, discretely visiting the SSPX Priory of Albano Laziale and also, a short time before his death, writing a text which influenced the forming of GREC and, as a result, the ‘discrete’ meetings with leading figures of the SSPX (p.29) in which took place this “dialogue, more charitable and diplomatic than doctrinal” (pp. 21-2). From this, ten years later, thanks to Benedict XVI and his ‘battle horse’ on the ‘hermeneutic of continuity and not of rupture’ sprang – at least according to Father Lelong – the concession of the Motu Proprio in 2007 (p. 49), the lifting of the excommunications of the four bishops consecrated by Mons. Lefebvre in 1988 and therefore, the ‘public’ doctrinal discussions between the Vatican and the SSPX (pp. 50-52).
    After his death, the work of Dr. Gilbert Perol has been brought forward by his wife, Huguette Perol, herself authoress of two interesting books exploring the same subject2.

    Father Lelong relates of how at the start of 1996, he became acquainted with certain leading figures in the SSPX. Before all, he refers to Don Emmanuel du Chalard of the Priory at Albano Laziale (p.24) who ‘has never ceased to offer his support to GREC, just as precious as it is discrete’ (p.24), and in 1997 with Father Alain Lorans, ex Director of the SSPX Seminary at Econe, then of the Institute of Saint Pius X in Paris and finally, Editor of the SSPX’s official publication DICI (p.24). The meetings took place at the home of Hugette Perol at Rue de Rome in Paris; they were attended above all by Mrs Perol, Fr. Lelong, Fr Lorans who accounted for them to the SSPX Superior General (p.29), and Father Olivier de La Brosse, a Dominican who later became the official spokesman for the French Episcopal Conferences (pp. 24 & 25).


    Public Meetings


    On 23rdMarch 2000, GREC progressed from holding ‘discrete and diplomatic’ meetings to those that were ‘public and doctrinal/ theological’, attended by both Traditional priests and conservatives in which they openly discussed the key themes of the Council and expounded their different points of view; this change was thanks to the help of one of its original supporters, Michel Brisacier, responsible for ‘Direction of Faiths’ in the French Ministry of Internal Affairs (p.26).
    The now public meetings of GREC were also attended by leading figures of the Institute of the Good Shepherd, the Society of Saint Peter, the Institute of Christ the King and the High Priest Gricigliano, as well as by Father Claude Barthe, and many cardinals, bishops and university professors (p. 27).

    In early 2000, the highest Vatican authorities came to be informed of these GREC meetings – never secret, no longer discrete and by now completely public (p.29) – and amongst these the names of the Nunzio Apostolico of Paris and the President of the French Episcopal Conferences stand out (p.29).

    Huguette Perol, Fr. Lorans and Fr. Lelong were received by many Vatican authorities (pp. 30 & 31). Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, in his role as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was notified about them (p. 48), as was Cardinal State Secretary Angelo Sodano (pp. 42-3).

    Father Charles Morerod of the Dominicans – who became Master of the Holy Palace, the Pope’s official theologian – began to take part in the meetings, or public and theologicaldebates, in which Father Patrick de La Rocque of the SSPX also participated, (who later in 2010 also took part in the official meetings between the Vatican and the Holy See (p. 57)), Fr. Gregoire Celier (pp.62-5) and Fr. Troadec (p.67), Director of the SSPX Seminary at Flavigny.

    The interview that Fr. Paul Alagnier (ex SSPX Superior of France from 1973 – 1994, then assistant to the Superior General until 2002 and now member of the Institute of the Good Shepherd) has allowed Fr. Lelong to publish (pp.98-114) is of interest. In it, one learns that in 1984 the then Superior General of the SSPX, Fr. Franz Schmidberger, had forwarded a petition to Pope John Paul II to obtain the freeing of the Mass of St Pius V, and in response the Pope had granted (3rdOctober 1984) an “indult” with the “drastic” (p.103) conditions to recognise in full the orthodoxy of Vatican II and of the Novus Ordo Mass of Paul VI, conditions that nonetheless were listened to relatively favourably by Fr. Schmidberger3, but not by Mons. Lefebvre, not by Mons. Antonio de Castro Mayer, who immediately defined it as “fraudulent”. Fr. Aulagnier goes on to recount the initial, informal discussions with the Dominican Fathers and French Benedictines (both favourable towards the Vatican II texts, read in the light of Tradition), discussions that had already occurred in early 1992 and in which he had participated along with Fathers Celier, Lorans, Boubee, Boivin and Laisney (p.107).

    Conclusion

    The book is interesting in that it distinguishes the two levels of the meetings discussions between the Traditionalists and the Vatican: 1) the level where the dialogue is “diplomatic and discrete, but not totally secret”, open to accepting the hermeneutic of continuity and seemingly considered of real value for the Vatican and the leading figures of the SSPX (1997-2001); 2) The public, theological and doctrinal (2000-2010) level which appears to be unwilling to accept the hermeneutic of continuity, insisting rather on the importance of the points of contradiction between the Council and Tradition, seemingly considered of little value, almost as though throwing dust in the eyes of the traditional priests and faithful.

    The book helps us to understand how by 2001, it may have been possible for the Superior General to arrive at the statement that in his opinion “95% of Vatican II is acceptable” (cfr. DICI, n. 8, 18thmay 2001)4, a statement that was met with immediate opposition by Mons. Williamson in his “Letter to friends and benefactors”, printed in a pamphlet by the SSPX American Bulletin in which he called these “contacts with Rome... a betrayal”. Later, at the meeting of the SSPX Italian District at Albano Laziale, 26th April 2002, the statement was essentially locked up and the key thrown away, and passed for a decade under an embarrassed silence, only to be brought to light again with the expulsion of Mons. Williamson from the SSPX in September/October 2012, after becoming too great an obstacle to “diplomatic” agreement, in the words of Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos to the priests of the Society of Saint Peter in Germany, 11th May 2001.

    From the very start of these “discrete, but not secret” discussions, held in a manner more charitable and diplomatic than doctrinal (pp. 21-22), the SSPX  have been at the point of an almost total yielding, at least in words if not yet, fortunately, in legally and canonically obliging actions.

    There is nothing objectionable as to on the holding of these public debates on the question of the orthodoxy of the Council documents, but one is left surprised at these meetings that are more charitable and diplomatic than doctrinal (pp. 21-22) and conducted in the light of the “hermeneutic of continuity”. According to Father Lelong, these meetings, from 2001 – 2012, have brought forward the reconciliation of the SSPX with the Vatican, only delayed by the “Williamson Case” of 2008 (cfr. Father Lelong, cit. P.120)

    I do not permit myself to cast judgement on the subjective .intentions of the priests and prelates in question, only God knows and I would like to hope that they may be subjectively blameless, even if materially and objectively they are in error.

    That which will happen in the near future, now that the obstacle of the British bishop is removed, only God knows. “Man proposes, God disposes”. That which one knows is that the internal disbanding of the Traditional front is in parallel with that which was provoked by John XXIII in 1959 with the announcement of the Second Vatican Council. To such a state only God can provide a remedy with miraculous intervention; we must not be discouraged, but rather confide in the help of Our Lady who at Fatima, 1917 assured us: “In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph!”.



    1 www.editions-nel.com, 159 pages 20 euro

    2 Les sans-papiers de l’Eglise, Paris, Francois-Xavier de Guibert, 1999; La tempete apaisee, reprise du dialogue entre Rome et Econe, Paris, Francois-Xavier de Guibert, 2006.

    3 “Despite these [the conditions imposed by John Paul II, ndr] we rejoice at this decision...” (Fr. Franz Schmidberger, Rikenbach, 18th October 1984)

    4 DICI, the official SSPX publication cites the interview with Mons. Bernard Fellay from the newspaper ‘La Liberte’ of 11th May 2001, which cites from the Swiss newspaper St Galler Tagblatt e Basler Zeitung, in which he says <<Cela donne l’impression que nous rejetons tout de Vatican II. Or, nous en gardons 95%. C’est plus a un esprit que nous nous opposons, a une attitude devant le changement... (It could seem that we refuse in full all of Vatican II. Instead, we accept 95% of it. Rather, it is the spirit, the attitude that we oppose...)>>



    http://doncurzionitoglia.net
    http://doncurzionitoglia.net/2013/01/24/177/

    Offline Cristera

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    An agreement that is discreet, but not secret
    « Reply #1 on: January 25, 2013, 08:54:34 PM »
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  • Some photos:





    Offline parentsfortruth

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    « Reply #2 on: January 25, 2013, 10:58:09 PM »
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  •  :shocked:

    Wow, thank you for that...

    ....

     :stare:

    Wow...
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline Telesphorus

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    An agreement that is discreet, but not secret
    « Reply #3 on: January 26, 2013, 01:17:39 AM »
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  • Could Matthew change discrete to discreet.  Thank you.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    An agreement that is discreet, but not secret
    « Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 02:23:33 AM »
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  • I have been blown away.  KAAA-BBOOOOM...

    And I'm not even finished reading this.  

    The primary impression I have is:  I have been betrayed.  

    In 1997 I stood face to face with Bishop Fellay and he made no secret of how
    very interested he was in the "luscious plumb" (his words) of Vatican
    recognition for the Society.  And he made no mention of the fact that he
    had already been informed of this GREC and its agenda.  

    Years went by, during which time, he gave permission for his underlings to
    promote the work of the guy who died in 1995 after +Fellay's ear-to-ear grinning
    picture was taken with him, which see.  That picture must have been about the
    same time that +Fellay had been just elected SG.  So this passion of his to be
    reconciled is at LEAST as old as his superior office, and perhaps older than his
    consecration in 88.  

    This is the dream of a lifetime for +Bernie.

    Then later, after we now find it is documented that GREC was the impetus for
    all the things that went "in favor of Tradition" or even close, such as the
    so-called lifting of the so-called excoms, the so-called freeing of the Mass (they
    say here the "Mass of St. Pius V" but Summorum Pontificum says the Mass of
    1962!), the so-called Hermeneutic of Continuity in the light of tradition of B16,
    and the 'deal with Rome' for the SSPX.  It was all known in advance and +Fellay
    was in on the action.  

    Then he had the nerve, no, the gall, no, the IMPUDENCE to ask the world's
    Catholics, not once, NOT TWICE, BUT THREE TIMES to pray millions of
    Rosaries, starting off with the intention for the Collegial Consecration of Russia
    to the Immaculate Heart of Mary but phasing out that idea until it went off the
    radar in time for the last crusade.  

    And then, when the so-called liftings occurred, for the Mass and for the so-called
    excoms, who was Johnny-on-the-spot to take credit for the magic show, for which
    he had hired Our Lady as a carnival barker hawking graces as if she'd be a party
    to his filthy simony-in-action?  

    You got it:  +Bernie again, grinning, as usual.  

    Yes, I feel betrayed.  I feel dirty.  I feel like I need a bath.  In a volcano.  

    I am ticked.



    And I'm only halfway through this excellent example of calm, sedate summary.  

    How the author could keep his cool through this I have no idea.  

    I'll spare you the headache of me giving it footnotes.    Sheeesh....   :facepalm:



    I'm so pissed I missed the obvious............
    Telesphorus    ....   Could Matthew change discrete to discreet. Thank you.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    An agreement that is discreet, but not secret
    « Reply #5 on: January 26, 2013, 02:49:18 AM »
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  • 4 DICI, the official SSPX publication cites the interview with Mons. Bernard Fellay from the newspaper ‘La Liberte’ of 11th May 2001, which cites from the Swiss newspaper St Galler Tagblatt e Basler Zeitung, in which he says <<Cela donne l’impression que nous rejetons tout de Vatican II. Or, nous en gardons 95%. C’est plus a un esprit que nous nous opposons, a une attitude devant le changement... (It could seem that we refuse in full all of Vatican II. Instead, we accept 95% of it. Rather, it is the spirit, the attitude that we oppose...)>>




    Translation of the translation:  And so they would lead you to believe that we are
    wont to reject Vatican II wholesale, but alas, not so.  We are opposed entirely to
    the unclean spirit of Vatican II which permeates it like ZyclonB poison gas chamber,
    uh, gas.  Just poison gas......  a-hem. .........  but despite the poison, we accept
    NINETY FIVE PERCENT of it, that is, the part without the ZyclonB component.  Yes?
    What parts don't have the poison in them?  Uh, Miss. Secretary, would you please
    look that up for me (slaps her from behind as she walks by)?  Thank you.  
    Any more questions?




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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    « Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 06:12:52 AM »
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  •  :surprised:
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    « Reply #7 on: January 26, 2013, 06:30:39 AM »
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  • Someone needs to translate this book into English Pronto!!
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline Wessex

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    « Reply #8 on: January 26, 2013, 06:41:17 AM »
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  • Betrayed by the SSPX? This is always the case if one holds to fixed positions. On the other hand, if one needs a religious vehicle to carry one comfortably through life and beyond, then climb aboard; your spiritual journey will evolve as the vehicle evolves and it will be a mystery journey. Consider why this happens:

    1) The very flexible nature of the partial-communion position
    2) The vacillation of superiors-general
    3) The role that large bequests have in decision-making
    4) The institution becoming more important than the original cause
    5) The footprints of factions that are in vogue
    6) The culture of inbuilt secrecy
    7) The outside interests of its senior executives.

    If the Society is forever negotiating an end to its irregular status, it is already in a state of transition and open to change. Attaching oneself firmly to such an entity as though it were the Holy Grail is asking for trouble. Use it like it uses you, if you must. This is what so many trads do when they regularly church-hop.  

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #9 on: January 26, 2013, 07:01:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: Wessex
    4) The institution becoming more important than the original cause


    This is the real reason why laity support it so unconditionally whereas in the 1980s they clearly did not.

    All genuine Catholics are bound to be in a state of opposition to what has been occurring in Rome if they really understand the situation.  And most never do.  Including, it seems, most people raised trad.  Or at least, they are subject to being easily persuaded to gloss over contradictions because of excessive loyalty to priests.

    However the SSPX was once very clearly against liberalism, and now that is no longer the case.  Huge multi-generational trad families can hardly be expected to maintain orthodoxy uniformly throughout.  Those who are fallen away in the internal forum yet remain in the pews every Sunday will push very hard for concessions to liberalism.  And when they have corrupt priests to help them they can come to dominate their little social islands in which those who are actually opposed to liberalism become a serious annoyance to them.

    The same thing is seen in nearly all so-called "right-wing" or "conservative" political groups.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #10 on: January 26, 2013, 07:03:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: Tradition In Action
    The doctrinal tragedy is the most important one, but relatively simple to describe and offer advice about. Should they sign the compromise, the Bishops will deny their decades-long fight against Modernism and Progressivism. They will burn incense to the idols, no matter what theological distinctions and subtleties they will make to appease their consciences. It is my definite opinion that a lay Catholic should not follow in this compromise. He has to answer to God for his personal fidelity. He should look at and follow the examples of St. Athanasius and St. Hillary of Poitiers, who refused to sign any compromise in their time.

    The psychological tragedy is more complicated and harder to disentangle. Through the years, the SSPX has built a strong network of personal relations based on a disproportionate respect of the faithful for its priests and bishops. Fidelity to the Catholic cause, instead of being based on principles, has often been confused with a non-rational obedience to this or that priest or bishop surmised to be much better than he really is. Also, the closer supporters or donors come to the SSPX, the more entrenched they become with spiritual directors. These directors control almost all their ideas and opinions. Anyone who complains about this excessive control is qualified as anti-clerical and put out. This makes a tight, military-style system that is difficult to remove oneself from.

    I know of insiders in the SSPX who are intelligent; notwithstanding, they are completely blind to the most evident fact when it demonstrates that this or that one of their Bishops is compromising. Men take an aggressive position of counter-attack as if one were committing a sacrilege to suspect such a thing; ladies can fall into hysteria should one insist in the argument. Now that they have Hoyos providing solid evidence that probably three of the Bishops have accepted Vatican II, I hope that they will open their eyes.

    To break this strong dependence can be very painful. However, this is an action and a sacrifice the faithful Catholic must make if the Bishops actually enter into a compromise and accept Vatican II and the New Mass.


    Offline Kelley

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    « Reply #11 on: January 26, 2013, 01:39:26 PM »
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  • This book appears to be hard, objective evidence of a long, deliberate attempt toward deception & manipulation on the part of the FSSPX leadership.

    Trying to achieve this end by intentionally manipulating Our Lady of the Rosary will result in humiliating demise.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #12 on: January 26, 2013, 02:55:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: Kelley
    This book appears to be hard, objective evidence of a long, deliberate attempt toward deception & manipulation on the part of the FSSPX leadership.

    Trying to achieve this end by intentionally manipulating Our Lady of the Rosary will result in humiliating demise.




    You know, I was inclined to say this myself but I didn't quite know if I could be so
    sure it was the truth.  But the more I look, the more it seems to be that this is
    finally the iceberg we've been waiting for, and the report is the tip of the iceberg.

    My question now is what kind of a woman is this Huguette Perol, to be so eager
    to publish her archives?  She seems to be proud of this.  Or, is it that she is
    gloating over the achievement that her deceased husband's brainchild has now
    blossomed into, such that she wants to take "credit" for the development, sort of
    like showing up at the awards ceremony to receive a posthumous trophy?  

    Is it a thing that an understanding of French 'culture' can better explain?

    Before Vatican II, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin circulated his subversive screed
    pages among seminary students at multiple seminaries, passed hand-to-hand, as
    it were, in "combat" against the status quo at that time.  He died BTW,
    before most of us were born, and his remains were refused burial in numerous
    Catholic cemeteries on both sides of the Atlantic.  The screeds were intelligent
    arguments that were doctrinally unsound but compelling nonetheless, and they
    caught the imagination of numerous up-and-coming movers-and-shakers who
    wanted to be one the "inside track" to the "future of the Church."  Their influence
    on Vatican II cannot be underestimated.

    Sound familiar?  They were nicknamed his "Clandestines."  

    The GREC appears to be the Clandestines of +Bernard Fellay et. al. a.k.a. the
    Menzingen-denizens.  

    It seems to me that Chardin is prophesied in Scripture, but now, perhaps St. John
    was talking about not only one man, one priest, but a series of priests who would
    subvert and undermine the Church from within:  

    "And the fifth angel sounded the trumpet, and I saw a star fall from heaven upon
    the earth, and there was given to him the key of the bottomless pit. And he
    opened the bottomless pit:  and the smoke of the pit arose as the smoke of a
    great furnace;  and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke of the pit"
    (Apoc. ix. 1-2).

    I'm having a hard time with a visual:  one young boy, reads the Bible and says to
    his mother, "When I grow up I want to be given the key to open the bottomless
    pit."  And his name was Bernie.  









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    Offline parentsfortruth

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    « Reply #13 on: January 26, 2013, 06:36:27 PM »
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  • Found a copy for sale on Amazon UK if anyone can get their hands on it. It's around $25 plus probably have to pay for shipping. It's not an easy book to get your hands on, but this must be translated into English.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Necessaire-Reconciliation-G-R-E-C-Michel-Lelong/dp/2723395804
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #14 on: January 27, 2013, 06:40:54 AM »
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  • Quote from: parentsfortruth
    Found a copy for sale on Amazon UK if anyone can get their hands on it. It's around $25 plus probably have to pay for shipping. It's not an easy book to get your hands on, but this must be translated into English.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Necessaire-Reconciliation-G-R-E-C-Michel-Lelong/dp/2723395804



    Good job, PFT!  Now we need one of our French members - stevusmagnus or
    Telesphorus should be of assistance.......

    or ask MaterDominici or even Matthew






    Pour la nécessaire réconciliation : Le Groupe de Réflexion entre Catholiques (GREC) [French] [Paperback]
    Michel Lelong (Author)
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