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Author Topic: Advice for Novus Ordo Priests in SSPX Chapels  (Read 6579 times)

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Re: Advice for Novus Ordo Priests in SSPX Chapels
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2020, 12:51:48 PM »
Just such a one was this Father Stark in the early 1980s.  He REFUSED to get conditionally ordained even when it was still the common SSPX practice.  Father Stark's non-ordination was one of THE key factors in why The Nine split off from the SSPX (that and the acceptance of Novus Ordo annulments).  Sedevacantism was actually a side issue, and not all The Nine were even sedevacantists at the time.
I knew Father Stark.  Is he still living?  Is he well?  I do know that he lost the sight of one eye.

Re: Advice for Novus Ordo Priests in SSPX Chapels
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2020, 11:11:21 AM »
Archbishop Lefebvre April 26th, 1983 Conference to the Ridgefield Seminarians -“The Fr. Stark Issue”:

“...that is the reason why I said to you yesterday [...] that we must do an inquisition, (a study of each case) to know what the situation really is - in this case - not in all cases in general (i.e. not a blanket judgement) but in this case, to see if his ordination is valid or invalid. And I ... I am responsible, and I make the decision. I can say to him: ‘You must be re-ordained.’ Otherwise, if I think that his ordination his valid, really valid, then I have no right to repeat the Sacrament. (NB: It would be a grave sacrilege to knowingly do so).”

This has always been the case with the SSPX, if they simply accept all NO ordinations as certainly valid these days or not, I do not think so based on talking with numerous different SSPX priests about it over the last 50 years, the last one was about a year or two ago. I did speak with someone in the offices of the Angelus magazine not too long ago and he gave the same story as all of the priests, that is, that they investigate each case individually and will conditionally ordain if it's needed.
It is one thing what an organization says they do as a corporate policy, and it is another thing what they actually do. I think what you quoted above is (was)  the standard SSPX corporate company response, but the reality was that they conditionally ordained everyone that asked for it or even had the slightest doubt, and they would not conditionally ordain or push the hard heads that insisted that they did not want to be conditionally ordained, like Fr. Stark.

This is what I wrote earlier:


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I believe that any Novus Ordo priest that was not conditionally ordained by the SSPX was not because they were investigated and found to be valid, I think it was because they were hard heads that refused to admit that they might not have been priests and refused to be conditionally re-ordained just to relieve the SSPX faithful. My SSPX priest told me that he worked with just such a priest and never could convince him to stop fighting everyone and just get conditionally ordained. My priest was totally baffled as to why the Novus Ordo ordained priest dedicated practically all his time fighting the faithful, when he could just go and get conditionally ordained and be done with it.

To further corroborate my observation, this is the absolute proof, a Novus Ordo priest ordained in with Novus Ordo ordination rite in the original Latin by Pope  John Paul II in Rome, and the SSPX conditionally ordains the priest:
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I knew a Father Carlos Casavantes.  He was conditionally ordained by Bishop Williamson after having been ordained in Rome directly by none other than John Paul II himself  .  He has since stopped working with the SSPX and is a member of the FSSP.





Re: Advice for Novus Ordo Priests in SSPX Chapels
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2020, 03:27:05 PM »
Not if there's positive doubt with regard to the Rite itself.  And I believe that there is, and a lot of reasonable/intelligent/well-educated people have concluded that there is.  

I've been searching far and wide for a reasonable/intelligent/well-educated person to explain why the new rite of episcopal consecration is doubtful, and I haven't found one yet.  On the other hand, I am a reasonable/highly-intelligent (genius level IQ)/well-educated person, and I have concluded that there is no doubt whatsoever about the validity of the rite.  If you know of any positive doubts, I'd like to hear them.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Advice for Novus Ordo Priests in SSPX Chapels
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2020, 03:37:00 PM »
I've been searching far and wide for a reasonable/intelligent/well-educated person to explain why the new rite of episcopal consecration is doubtful, and I haven't found one yet.  On the other hand, I am a reasonable/highly-intelligent (genius level IQ)/well-educated person, and I have concluded that there is no doubt whatsoever about the validity of the rite.  If you know of any positive doubts, I'd like to hear them.
"...It is not our purpose in these pages to decide whether the new ordination rite is invalid, though, as we shall see, the argument is substantial enough that we are bound to allow for this possibility. Furthermore, we must see the issue in the context of the total redefinition and reconstitution of the Church, such as was set in motion at the Council. In view of the fact that, since the Council, the priest's role has been in the process of being modified, as we said, to that of a Protestant presbyter, there is every reason to deduce that the new ordination rite sabotages the Sacrament of Holy Orders according to the explicit program and purposes of those now in power. (The reader is reminded that the very doubt which this change creates serves the malevolent purposes of the conspirators as well as does the certitude of invalidity, because from the doubt flows controversy, disagreements, factions, confusion, and disquietude among the clergy and the faithful.)

By way of preface, we observe: The revisers had a reason for making changes, and particular reasons for each change they made.

They cannot argue that their new formulas are identical to the old; that would be to admit that the changes mean nothing, and that, therefore, there was no reason to make them. To admit that they made changes for no reason whatsoever would be a sign of a most irreverent capriciousness and cynicism. Besides, such an explanation could only be regarded as a concealment. The new forms (Latin and English) must be seen to say something different from the old. Furthermore, in view of what the other changes in the liturgical rites have connoted, we are compelled to be suspicious. We should rather say, we have every reason to look for an effort at neuterizing this sacramental rite, because those in charge of the new rites have shown themselves untrustworthy, or, more accurately, determinedly subversive. The new form could not be an improvement on the old. How can one method or set of words ordain someone better than another? The alteration of the form can only have had the intention of either negating this purpose, or, at the very least, of creating a doubt as to its efficacy. (As if it needs to be said: They could not have added something to the form by taking words away. And what could they have wanted to add to the power of Orders? Why did they touch the form at all?)..." - Father Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?

Re: Advice for Novus Ordo Priests in SSPX Chapels
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2020, 11:46:46 PM »
"...It is not our purpose in these pages to decide whether the new ordination rite is invalid, though, as we shall see, the argument is substantial enough that we are bound to allow for this possibility.

The revisers had a reason for making changes, and particular reasons for each change they made.

They cannot argue that their new formulas are identical to the old; that would be to admit that the changes mean nothing

in view of what the other changes in the liturgical rites have connoted, we are compelled to be suspicious.

 The new form could not be an improvement on the old.

The alteration of the form can only have had the intention of either negating this purpose, or, at the very least, of creating a doubt as to its efficacy.
Hello Stubborn,

In the excerpt you posted he says the arguments against validity are substantial enough to permit the possibility of doubt, but he doesn't provide any objective facts that support his assertion.  Nothing that constitutes matter for positive doubts.  I just did a search for the book, but couldn't locate it.   Does he provide any specifics later in the chapter?