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Author Topic: Accepting Vatican II  (Read 16500 times)

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Offline NIFH

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Re: Accepting Vatican II
« Reply #135 on: May 09, 2023, 07:43:02 PM »
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  • Here's SVism as a syllogism:

    MAJOR:  Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and could not destroy the faith and the Mass.
    MINOR:  V2 Popes have destroyed the faith and the Mass.
    CONCLUSION:  V2 Popes cannot be legitimate Catholic Popes.
    Both premises are correct.  The conclusion does not follow the premises.

    Major:  The Catholic Church cannot destroy the Faith.  The pope cannot destroy the Faith when he speaks ex cathedra.  The pope can destroy the Faith when speaking or acting as a private person.

    Minor:  V2 popes have only destroyed the Faith when speaking or acting as private persons.

    Conclusion:  V2 popes can be legitimate popes.

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #136 on: May 09, 2023, 07:50:23 PM »
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  • Did you even understand what I posted?  Evdiently not.

    Archbishop Lefebvre never denied the MAJOR.  In refusing to commit entirely to the SV conclusion, he was wavering on the MINOR of the syllogism above, not the MAJOR.  Those of you who reject the MAJOR are promoting a heretical view of the Church and you can't try to hide behind Archbishop Lefebvre there because he never rejected the MAJOR.  Because +Lefebvre never committed to the SV conclusion, you try to pretend that the Archbishop backs your heretical rejection of the MAJOR above ... but then I don't expect you to understand this, as you clearly showed ignorance about that point in this response.
    Archbishop Lefebvre was very sure about your 'minor'.  You have omitted parts of the 'major'.  There is a disconnect between the premises and your conclusion.


    Offline Comrade

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #137 on: May 09, 2023, 08:51:30 PM »
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  • Both premises are correct.  The conclusion does not follow the premises.

    Major:  The Catholic Church cannot destroy the Faith.  The pope cannot destroy the Faith when he speaks ex cathedra.  The pope can destroy the Faith when speaking or acting as a private person.

    Minor:  V2 popes have only destroyed the Faith when speaking or acting as private persons.

    Conclusion:  V2 popes can be legitimate popes.
    Your Minor is wrong. Your claiming that the pope promulgated the NOM and made it the ordinary rite as a private person? Impossible. 

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #138 on: May 09, 2023, 09:29:59 PM »
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  • Your Minor is wrong. Your claiming that the pope promulgated the NOM and made it the ordinary rite as a private person? Impossible.
    The 'command' to use the New Mass was given in a notification from the Sacred Congregation of Rites.  You will not find Paul VI's signature on a single decree saying priests must use the New Mass.

    Even if he had signed a decree, Trent defined it to be outside his authority.  Just like if he publishes a new traffic code for the United States, it's simply null and void.

    Offline Comrade

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #139 on: May 10, 2023, 11:50:47 AM »
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  • The 'command' to use the New Mass was given in a notification from the Sacred Congregation of Rites.  You will not find Paul VI's signature on a single decree saying priests must use the New Mass.

    Even if he had signed a decree, Trent defined it to be outside his authority.  Just like if he publishes a new traffic code for the United States, it's simply null and void.

    Yes, command and promulgation are two different things. You are arguing that it was never made law, at least not through approved mechanisims or was missing requirements prescribe by Canon Law. However, some would disagree.



    Bishop Fellay 2012 Doctrinal Preamble

    http://www.archbishoplefebvre.com/uploads/1/0/3/2/10321570/_bishop_fellays_doctrinal_preamble.pdf
     
    7. We declare that we recognize the validity of the sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments celebrated with the intention to do what the Church does according to the rites indicated in the typical editions of the Roman Missal and the Sacramentary Rituals legitimately promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John-Paul II.
     


    Archbishop Lefebvre 1988 Protocol
     
    http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Archbishop_Lefebvre_and_the_Vatican/Part_I/1988-05-05B.htm
     
    1988 d)    Moreover, we declare that we recognize the validity of the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments celebrated with the intention of doing what the Church does, and according to the rites indicated in the typical editions of the Roman Missal and the Rituals of the Sacraments promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John Paul II.
     
     

    Fr. Cekada
     
    http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/P6Illegally.pdf
     
    What is “Promulgation”? To “promulgate” a law means nothing more than to announce it publicly. The essence of promulgation is the public proposal of a law to the community by the lawmaker himself, or on his authority, so that the will of the lawmaker to impose an obligation can become known to his subjects. The Code of Canon Law simply says: “Laws enacted by the Holy See are promulgated by their publication in the official commentary Acta Apostolicae Sedis, unless in particular cases another mode of promulgation is prescribed.” This is all that the Code requires and it suffices to make known the will of the legislator, the pope.




    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #140 on: May 10, 2023, 07:37:26 PM »
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  • Yes, command and promulgation are two different things. You are arguing that it was never made law, at least not through approved mechanisims or was missing requirements prescribe by Canon Law. However, some would disagree.



    Bishop Fellay 2012 Doctrinal Preamble

    http://www.archbishoplefebvre.com/uploads/1/0/3/2/10321570/_bishop_fellays_doctrinal_preamble.pdf
     
    7. We declare that we recognize the validity of the sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments celebrated with the intention to do what the Church does according to the rites indicated in the typical editions of the Roman Missal and the Sacramentary Rituals legitimately promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John-Paul II.
     


    Archbishop Lefebvre 1988 Protocol
     
    http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Archbishop_Lefebvre_and_the_Vatican/Part_I/1988-05-05B.htm
     
    1988 d)    Moreover, we declare that we recognize the validity of the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments celebrated with the intention of doing what the Church does, and according to the rites indicated in the typical editions of the Roman Missal and the Rituals of the Sacraments promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John Paul II.
     
     

    Fr. Cekada
     
    http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/P6Illegally.pdf
     
    What is “Promulgation”? To “promulgate” a law means nothing more than to announce it publicly. The essence of promulgation is the public proposal of a law to the community by the lawmaker himself, or on his authority, so that the will of the lawmaker to impose an obligation can become known to his subjects. The Code of Canon Law simply says: “Laws enacted by the Holy See are promulgated by their publication in the official commentary Acta Apostolicae Sedis, unless in particular cases another mode of promulgation is prescribed.” This is all that the Code requires and it suffices to make known the will of the legislator, the pope.
    Bishop Fellay made a grave error by including the word 'legitimately'.  You will not find that word in the Protocol agreed to by Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Even if the popes announced the 'law' with due process, that does not make it a law.  St. Thomas explains that a 'law' promulgated in due form is still not a law if the promulgator is trying to legislate something outside of the domain of his authority.

    Some imagine that the 'abortion laws' are bad laws.  The Catholic Church actually holds that they are not laws at all, since the U.S. Congress has no authority over matters ruled by Divine Law.

    Likewise with the New Mass.  No matter how many official papal seals are stamped on a decree attempting to mandate the use of the New Mass, the decree is absolutely null and void.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #141 on: May 10, 2023, 07:44:30 PM »
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  • Quote
    In the new interview with Bishop Hounder, the statement is given that Archbishop Lefebvre was disposed to accept the entirety of Vatican II. 
    From the OP....this is BS.


    Hounder is a german "bishop", the most notoriously liberal country that exists; his opinions should be laughed at and derided as anti-catholic.  He's a subversive.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #142 on: May 10, 2023, 07:50:50 PM »
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  • Both premises are correct.  The conclusion does not follow the premises.

    Major:  The Catholic Church cannot destroy the Faith.  The pope cannot destroy the Faith when he speaks ex cathedra.  The pope can destroy the Faith when speaking or acting as a private person.

    Minor:  V2 popes have only destroyed the Faith when speaking or acting as private persons.

    Conclusion:  V2 popes can be legitimate popes.

    Just stop.  You don't know what you're talking about.  What you're doing is distinguishing the MAJOR, so you're not holding that both premises are correct.

    Uhm, no, holding an Ecuмenical Council and promulgating a new Rite of Public worship (Mass and Sacraments) are not the pope speaking or acting as a "private person".  This is the same idiocy as when you claimed that an Ecuмenical Council is not Magisterium.

    Private person would be when Bergoglio is answering question on his airplane or spouting heresies to Scalfari.

    You can argue that the teaching of V2 was not infallible, i.e. were just merely authentic Magisterium but not that it was not Magisterium.  You can argue the same about the Pope's actions, but to claim that V2 and the NOM were the Pope acting as private person (vs. in his official capacity as pope) is utterly absurd.


    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #143 on: May 10, 2023, 08:11:06 PM »
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  • From the OP....this is BS.


    Hounder is a german "bishop", the most notoriously liberal country that exists; his opinions should be laughed at and derided as anti-catholic.  He's a subversive.
    I'm guessing my lack of skill for wording things makes you think I disagree with you.  Let me try again.

    Bishop Hounder mentions that Archbishop Lefebvre was ready to accept Vatican II.  This can be verified by reading his letters to Cardinal Ratzinger.  +Lefebvre explained in the same letters that in accepting the council as a whole, the docuмents themselves permitted him to reject the content.  Bishop Hounder and the Neo-SSPX do not mention the Archbishop's clarification.  They are not exactly being upfront with us.

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #144 on: May 10, 2023, 08:29:45 PM »
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  • Just stop.  You don't know what you're talking about.  What you're doing is distinguishing the MAJOR, so you're not holding that both premises are correct.

    Uhm, no, holding an Ecuмenical Council and promulgating a new Rite of Public worship (Mass and Sacraments) are not the pope speaking or acting as a "private person".  This is the same idiocy as when you claimed that an Ecuмenical Council is not Magisterium.

    Private person would be when Bergoglio is answering question on his airplane or spouting heresies to Scalfari.

    You can argue that the teaching of V2 was not infallible, i.e. were just merely authentic Magisterium but not that it was not Magisterium.  You can argue the same about the Pope's actions, but to claim that V2 and the NOM were the Pope acting as private person (vs. in his official capacity as pope) is utterly absurd.
    An Ecuмenical Council is extraordinary magisterium; by definition infallible and binding.  Vatican II says about itself, 'nothing in this council is binding'.  It does not even fit the definition of an Ecuмenical Council.

    To introduce a new rite of Mass is completely foreign to the authority of the papal office.  A pope attempting to do such is not acting in his official capacity as pope.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #145 on: May 11, 2023, 05:45:04 AM »
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  • Just stop.  You don't know what you're talking about.  What you're doing is distinguishing the MAJOR, so you're not holding that both premises are correct.

    Uhm, no, holding an Ecuмenical Council and promulgating a new Rite of Public worship (Mass and Sacraments) are not the pope speaking or acting as a "private person".  This is the same idiocy as when you claimed that an Ecuмenical Council is not Magisterium.

    Private person would be when Bergoglio is answering question on his airplane or spouting heresies to Scalfari.

    You can argue that the teaching of V2 was not infallible, i.e. were just merely authentic Magisterium but not that it was not Magisterium.  You can argue the same about the Pope's actions, but to claim that V2 and the NOM were the Pope acting as private person (vs. in his official capacity as pope) is utterly absurd.
    It's clear that NIFH is not only new to this forum, but new to Tradition.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #146 on: May 11, 2023, 07:27:45 AM »
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  • It's clear that NIFH is not only new to this forum, but new to Tradition.

    Thing is, there's another poster who's been here for years who keeps saying the same nonsense, that an Ecuмenical Council is not Magisterium and that the Pope is acting as a Private Person in promulgating a New Rite of Public Worship for the Church.  It's actually tied to whe whole "faith is greter than obedience" fallacy.  Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church are not the equivalent of positive commands issued by a superior.  Teaching the Church from an Ecuмenical Council and promulgating a new Rite of Mass are not the same as Father Pagliarani appointing a priest in the United States to serve at a particular chapel.  But that's the deceptive spin from R&R.

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #147 on: May 11, 2023, 09:20:00 PM »
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  • Thing is, there's another poster who's been here for years who keeps saying the same nonsense, that an Ecuмenical Council is not Magisterium and that the Pope is acting as a Private Person in promulgating a New Rite of Public Worship for the Church.  It's actually tied to whe whole "faith is greter than obedience" fallacy.  Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church are not the equivalent of positive commands issued by a superior.  Teaching the Church from an Ecuмenical Council and promulgating a new Rite of Mass are not the same as Father Pagliarani appointing a priest in the United States to serve at a particular chapel.  But that's the deceptive spin from R&R.
    You are evading.

    An Ecuмenical Council is Extraordinary Magisterium.  How can Vatican II be an Ecuмenical Council if it says about itself that it is not binding?

    Imagine your manager at McDonald's orders you to dye your hair green.  When you laugh, he gives you a very official-looking paper, with a McDonald's logo and his official signature.  He is acting as a private person, trying to invoke an authority that has not been given him.

    Your coworker pipes in, "This proves he's not our manager!"  He instinctively senses a problem, but his assessment is way off.  God bless him.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #148 on: May 11, 2023, 10:24:42 PM »
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  • You are evading.

    An Ecuмenical Council is Extraordinary Magisterium.  How can Vatican II be an Ecuмenical Council if it says about itself that it is not binding?

    Imagine your manager at McDonald's orders you to dye your hair green.  When you laugh, he gives you a very official-looking paper, with a McDonald's logo and his official signature.  He is acting as a private person, trying to invoke an authority that has not been given him.

    Your coworker pipes in, "This proves he's not our manager!"  He instinctively senses a problem, but his assessment is way off.  God bless him.

    Then imagine you return to your job the next day only to find your old familiar parking spot has been given to someone else and your 'Best Employee' plaque and other things are in a box outside the building.  You stand around, proclaiming to all who care (no one), "I've read Thomas Aquinas and I won't stand for this!!!  And besides, I still have the photo of my manager hanging in my house."  yada yada yada  Try taking that one up with the Human Resources Department.  (You might try and sue but if you're white and heterosɛҳuąƖ, well, good luck with that one...)

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #149 on: May 11, 2023, 10:52:22 PM »
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  • Then imagine you return to your job the next day only to find your old familiar parking spot has been given to someone else and your 'Best Employee' plaque and other things are in a box outside the building.  You stand around, proclaiming to all who care (no one), "I've read Thomas Aquinas and I won't stand for this!!!  And besides, I still have the photo of my manager hanging in my house."  yada yada yada  Try taking that one up with the Human Resources Department.  (You might try and sue but if you're white and heterosɛҳuąƖ, well, good luck with that one...)
    Sounds like the biography of Archbishop Lefebvre.  May God grant to this unprofitable servant the honor of such company!

    From an interview with +Lefebvre:

    Question: Of course you realize that your name has disappeared from the latest edition of the Annuario Pontifico, the 'Papal Year Book' edited in Rome.

    Archbishop Lefebvre: I think that my name has not disappeared from the Annuario of the Good Lord, at least I hope so, and that is what matters."