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Author Topic: Accepting Vatican II  (Read 16419 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Accepting Vatican II
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2023, 08:12:17 AM »
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  • “If (the Pope) lays down an order contrary to right customs one does not have to obey him; if he tries to do something manifestly opposed to justice and to the common good, it would be licit to resist him; if he attacks by force, he could be repelled by force, with the moderation characteristic of a good defence.” - Suarez, De Fide, disp.X sect.6, n.16.
     

    “If a man is sincerely convinced that what his superior commands is displeasing to God, he is bound not to obey…The word ‘superior’ certainly includes the Pope.”  - Cardinal Newman, Difficulties of Anglicans, pp.260-61.

    “If the Faith be in danger, prelates ought to be accused by their subjects, even in public. Thus, St. Paul, who was the subject of St Peter, called him to task in public because of the impending danger of scandal concerning a point of Faith. As the gloss of St Augustine says on Gal 2:11: ‘St Peter himself set an example for those who rule, to the effect that if they ever stray from the right path they are not to feel that anyone is unworthy of correcting them, even if such a person be one of their subjects.’” - St Thomas Aquinas, S.Th.IIaIIae,q33a4ad2.
     
    "Although it clearly follows from the circuмstances that the Pope can err at times, and command things which must not be done, that we are not simply to be obedient to him in all things, that does not show that he must be obeyed by all when his commands are good. To know in what cases he is to be obeyed and what not, it is said in the Acts of the Apostles: 'One ought to obey God rather than man'; therefore, were the Pope to command anything against Holy Scripture, or the articles of the Faith, or the truths of the Sacraments, or the commands of the natural or the divine law, he ought not to be obeyed, but in such commands, to be passed over, ignored." - Cardinal Torquemada OP (1388-1468), Summa de Ecclesia, p47-48

    "Great as our filial duty of reverence is towards whatever (the Pope) may say, great as our duty of obedience must be to the guidance of the Chief Shepherd, we do not hold that every word of his is infallible, or that he must always be right" - Raphael Cardinal Merry del Val, The Truth of Papal Claims, 1902,  p19...  Commenting on St Paul's resisting St Peter as related in Galatians: "Even today a bishop might expostulate with a Pope, who in his judgement might be acting in a way which was liable to mislead those under his own charge, and then write to his critics that he had not hesitated to pass strictures upon the action of the successor of St Peter... The hypothesis is quite conceivable and in no way destroys or diminishes the supremacy of the Pope. And yet an individual bishop does not occupy the exceptional position of St Paul, a fellow Apostle of the Prince of the Apostles. Even a humble nun, St Catherine of Siena, expostulated with the reigning Pontiff in her day, whilst fully acknowledging all his great prerogatives." -Card Merry del Val, Ibid. p74

    “Were he (the Pope) to wish to destroy the Church or to commit an act of similar magnitude, there would be a duty to prevent him, and likewise an obligation to oppose him and resist him. The reason being that he does not possess power in order to destroy, and thus it follows that if he is doing so it is lawful to oppose him” - Sylvester Prieras, prominent Dominican defender of papal authority against Martin Luther, in Dialogus de Potestate Papae, 1517.

    “If the Pope by his orders and his acts destroys the Church, one can resist him and impede the execution of his commands.” - Vitoria, Dominican theologian, Obras de Francisco de Vitoria pp. 486-67                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
    “Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff who attacks the body, so also is it licit to resist him who attacks the souls or destroys the civil order, or above all destroys the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will…” - St Robert Bellarmine, De Summo Pontifice, n.30, lib.II, cap.102 
    This is simply the teaching of Our Lord, and the revelation directly written down in the Scriptures.


    Quote

    Matthew 23

    1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,  2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.  3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not.

    Some try to limit the rein Christ put on obedience to the Scribes by saying that He is only speaking about what they do, not what they teach. Yet Christ had previously warned the disciples to beware of the "doctrine" of the Scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 16:12), and explicitly told them that the Pharisees taught things that "make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition" (Mark 7:9; see also Matthew 15). Thus, not only does Scripture in light of itself reject such an interpretation, but also notable Catholic commentators do as well, as reflected in Haydock and Lapide below.

    Haydock Commentary



    Quote
    Ver. 2. The Scribes. They, who professed the greatest zeal for the law of Moses, and gloried in being the interpreters of it, sat upon the chair of Moses, succeeded to his authority of governing the people of God, of instructing them in his law, and of disclosing to them his will. Such, therefore, as did not depart from the letter of the law, were called Scribes. But such as professed something higher, and separated themselves from the crowd, as better than the ordinary class of men, were called Pharisees, which signifies, separated. Origen. — God preserveth the truth of the Christian religion in the apostolic See of Rome, which in the new law answers to the chair of Moses, notwithstanding the disedifying conduct of some few of its bishops. Yes, though a traitor, as vile as Judas himself, were a bishop thereof, it would not be prejudicial to the integrity of the faith of God's Church, or to the ready obedience and perfect submission of sincere good Christians, for whom our Lord has made this provision, when he says: do that which they say, but do not as they do. S. Aug. Ep. clxv.


    Ver. 3. All therefore whatsoever they shall say. S. Augustine, in his defence of the Apostolic See, thus argues, contra lit. Petil. "Why dost thou call the apostolic chair the chair of pestilence? If, for the men that sit therein, I ask: did our Lord Jesus Christ, on account of the Pharisees, reflect upon the chair, wherein they sat? Did he not commend that chair of Moses, and, preserving the honour of the chair, reprove them? For he sayeth: they have sat on the chair of Moses. All therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do. These points if you did well consider, you would not, for the men whom you defame, blaspheme the Apostolic See, wherewith you do not hold communion." l. ii. c. 51. And again, c. 61. Ibid. "Neither on account of the Pharisees, to whom you maliciously compare us, did our Lord command the chair of Moses to be forsaken; (in which chair he verily figured his own) for he warned the people to do what they say, and not what they do, and that the holiness of the chair be in no case forsaken, nor the unity of the flock divided, on account of the wicked lives of the pastors." — Christ does not tell them to observe every thing, without exception, that the Pharisees should say to them; for, (as it was observed in a previous chapter) many superstitions and false ordinances had obtained amongst them, corrupting the Scriptures by their traditions; but only such as were not contrary to the law of Moses. We are taught to obey bad no less than good ministers, in those things that are not expressly contrary to the law of God. Hence appears how unfounded and unreasonable is the excuse so often adduced by persons in justification of their misdeeds, viz. that they saw their pastors do the same. Such must attend to the rule here given by Jesus Christ. What they say, do: but according to their works, do ye not. Dion. Carthus. — The words, all whatsoever, shew that nothing must be excepted, but what the supreme law orders to be excepted. E.

    Lapide commentary:



    Quote
    Saying, &c. By seat we here understand the honour, dignity, and authority of teaching and commanding, which Moses had with the Jєωs, and to which the Scribes had succeeded. We gather from S. Luke iv. 16, that the Scribes not only sat, but sometimes stood when they taught. In like manner, the chair of S. Peter is used to signify the power and authority of teaching and ruling all the faithful throughout the world, in which the Roman Pontiffs succeed S. Peter. For otherwise no Pontiff ever sits now in that actual wooden chair in which S. Peter sat, but it is religiously preserved in his basilica, and is shown to the people every year on the Feast of S. Peter’s Chair, to be venerated. Hence S. Jerome said to Damasus, “I am united in communion to your blessedness, that is, to the chair of Peter.” For although as a private man the Pontiff may err, yet when he defines anything ex cathedra, that is, by his Pontifical authority concerning the faith, he cannot err, because he is assisted by the Holy Ghost.


    Observe, many of the Scribes and Pharisees were priests or Levites, whose duty it was to teach the people (Mal. ii. 7). But Christ did not wish to name the Priests, because He would not derogate from the sacerdotal honour.


    All things therefore whatsoever, &c. He means, of course, all things not contrary to Moses and the Law. For the doctrine of the Scribes, when they taught men to say corban to their parents, was contrary to the Law, as Christ showed (xv. 4). In like manner, it was contrary to the Law of Moses to teach, as the Scribes did, that Jesus was not the Messiah, or the Christ. For Jesus showed those very signs and miracles which Moses and the Prophets had foretold Messiah would perform. In such things, therefore, the people must not follow the doctrine of the Scribes, nor be obedient to them; but in other things, in which their teaching was generally conformable to the Law of Moses, it was their duty to obey them. Christ therefore here teaches that all the other dogmas of the Scribes, which were not repugnant to the law, even though they were vain and foolish, and therefore not binding (for that a law should be obligatory, it must command something honest and useful, as Civilians and Theologians teach in their treatises upon laws, also D. Thomas, 1. 2 quæst. 95, art. 3), such as were the frequent washings of the hands and other parts of the body, might yet serve for the merit of blind and simple obedience, and for reverence of the sacerdotal order. So Jansen, Franc. Lucas, and others. But Maldonatus restricts the word all to such commands alone as are contained in the Law of Moses. Certainly these were what Christ chiefly referred to.

    Of course, obedience to the hierarchy is a virtue, and indeed they sit in the chair or seat of Moses. They should be listened to, unless . . . see above.

    Let me then ask: if those sitting, legitimately, in the seat or chair of Moses, are to be rejected for saying or teaching anything contrary to the law of God (as Our Lord and Scripture teaches us, confirmed by Catholic expositors of the same), and those teachers say something - i.e., "we are always to be obeyed and we can never teach something contrary to the law of God" - that is contrary to the Law of God, who do you listen to? Or who teaches rightly, as the teachings are opposed?

    In anticipation of the assertions of "heresy" and "Old Catholic" that will surely follow, I'll ask that the accusers show the unreliability of my sources, or the fallacy of my reasoning.

    Thank you,

    DR


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #31 on: April 26, 2023, 11:17:40 AM »
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  • This is simply the teaching of Our Lord, and the revelation directly written down in the Scriptures.


    Some try to limit the rein Christ put on obedience to the Scribes by saying that He is only speaking about what they do, not what they teach. Yet Christ had previously warned the disciples to beware of the "doctrine" of the Scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 16:12), and explicitly told them that the Pharisees taught things that "make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition" (Mark 7:9; see also Matthew 15). Thus, not only does Scripture in light of itself reject such an interpretation, but also notable Catholic commentators do as well, as reflected in Haydock and Lapide below.

    Haydock Commentary



    Lapide commentary:



    Of course, obedience to the hierarchy is a virtue, and indeed they sit in the chair or seat of Moses. They should be listened to, unless . . . see above.

    Let me then ask: if those sitting, legitimately, in the seat or chair of Moses, are to be rejected for saying or teaching anything contrary to the law of God (as Our Lord and Scripture teaches us, confirmed by Catholic expositors of the same), and those teachers say something - i.e., "we are always to be obeyed and we can never teach something contrary to the law of God" - that is contrary to the Law of God, who do you listen to? Or who teaches rightly, as the teachings are opposed?

    In anticipation of the assertions of "heresy" and "Old Catholic" that will surely follow, I'll ask that the accusers show the unreliability of my sources, or the fallacy of my reasoning.

    Thank you,

    DR

    OT is not NT.

    Pope Pius IX defined the scope of obedience for you so you don't have to extrapolate anything yourself, just submit to the clear teaching of the Pope, the universal and supreme Teacher.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #32 on: April 26, 2023, 11:38:52 AM »
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  • OT is not NT.

    Pope Pius IX defined the scope of obedience for you so you don't have to extrapolate anything yourself, just submit to the clear teaching of the Pope, the universal and supreme Teacher.

    Not when he contradicts the word of God (Galatians 1:8-9). That's NT btw. 

    And why? You don't. 

    As to the relevance and guidance of the OT examples:


    Quote
    Romans 15:4

    For what things soever were written, were written for our learning: that through patience and the comfort of the scriptures, we might have hope.





    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #33 on: April 26, 2023, 11:52:18 AM »
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  • OT is not NT.

    Pope Pius IX defined the scope of obedience for you so you don't have to extrapolate anything yourself, just submit to the clear teaching of the Pope, the universal and supreme Teacher.

    I'll say this, though you won't listen - after all, it's only OT.

    The same power or charism given to the pope was given to the High Priest under the Old Covenant:


    Quote
    Ecclesiasticus 45:21

    And he gave him power in his commandments, in the covenants of his judgments, that he should teach Jacob his testimonies, and give light to Israel in his law.

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #34 on: April 26, 2023, 12:38:44 PM »
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  • I'll say this, though you won't listen - after all, it's only OT.

    The same power or charism given to the pope was given to the High Priest under the Old Covenant:

    You didn't demonstrate it was the same.

    But even if it was, what would be your point? That you're free to ignore and reject your Pope's teaching? Pius IX clearly told you you have to obey everything, from Roman congregations to discipline. 

    Reminds me of the absurdity at the 1988 consecrations. "Habetis Mandatum Apostolicuм?" Schmidberger: "Habemus."

    A flat out lie. Not only did they not have an apostolic mandate, they had an explicit prohibition.

    Here's Pius IX again refuting the "ignore-the-Pope" position:


    Quote
    22. And surely what these sons of perdition intend is quite clear from their other writings, especially that impious and most imprudent one which has only recently been published by the person whom they recently constituted as a pseudo-bishop. For these writings attack and pervert the true power of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff and the bishops, who are the successors of blessed Peter and the apostles; they transfer it instead to the people, or, as they say, to the community. They obstinately reject and oppose the infallible magisterium both of the Roman Pontiff and of the whole Church in teaching matters. Incredibly, they boldly affirm that the Roman Pontiff and all the bishops, the priests and the people conjoined with him in the unity of faith and communion fell into heresy when they approved and professed the definitions of the Ecuмenical Vatican Council. Therefore they deny also the indefectibility of the Church and blasphemously declare that it has perished throughout the world and that its visible Head and the bishops have erred. They assert the necessity of restoring a legitimate episcopacy in the person of their pseudo-bishop, who has entered not by the gate but from elsewhere like a thief or robber and calls the damnation of Christ upon his head. 

    Sound familiar? The docuмent could be aptly renamed to "Letter to Lefebvre".

    One can refute R&R using only Pius IX quotes. Sad.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #35 on: April 26, 2023, 04:29:28 PM »
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  • You didn't demonstrate it was the same.

    But even if it was, what would be your point? That you're free to ignore and reject your Pope's teaching? Pius IX clearly told you you have to obey everything, from Roman congregations to discipline.

    Reminds me of the absurdity at the 1988 consecrations. "Habetis Mandatum Apostolicuм?" Schmidberger: "Habemus."

    A flat out lie. Not only did they not have an apostolic mandate, they had an explicit prohibition.

    Here's Pius IX again refuting the "ignore-the-Pope" position:


    Sound familiar? The docuмent could be aptly renamed to "Letter to Lefebvre".

    One can refute R&R using only Pius IX quotes. Sad.

    I demonstrated that the High Priest was given “power” to teach Israel, and “give light to Israel in his law.” That is at the very least similar to the power of the pope to teach and interpret the law for the Church. If you want to make a distinction of difference between the similarity between the two that I have already established, that’s on you. Go ahead. Nowhere in Scripture will you find such a distinction.

    I have nothing to do with the SSPX, so I”ll avoid that part.

    There is an incredible irony in you citing Pius IX, as what you cited exposes you to be directly in his censure: it applies to you as well as me, and indeed to everyone who rejects the Novus Ordo or Conciliar religion - aka, Trads.

    So anyone who rejects V2 is condemned by Pius IX statements. This includes you.

    My position entails rejecting teachings of Godly appointed teachers that go against the Law. I have the word of God in support, to which you can only respond by citing the teachers.

    So your position is based upon papal teachings that say you can’t reject any papal teachings at a certain level, which you haven’t specified. Now, you can’t use those teaching to reject the Novus Ordo or Conciliar religion of 50 plus years of popes, which is glaringly manifest: you can’t reject popes by citing popes who say popes can’t be rejected.

    So on what basis do you reject them? They teach contrary to what was taught before as God’s law. So . . . you adopt my position anyway.

    But you fancy yourself as not adopting my position because you reject the teachers, and not just the teachings. But in rejecting the teachers, rejecting the hierarchy God put in positions of power to guide and rule the Church for the last 50 plus years, you are rejecting the old teachings that you rely upon to reject the teachers (as already mentioned), but you also do so by the implicit invoking of the old teaching on indefectibility - to justify your rejection of the teachers the teaching says you can't reject. It's a muddle, I know, but such is your position. 

    If you want to follow the old teachings, the old teaching on indefectibility requires not only a pope who teaches the Church inerrantly but also a pope with the power to rule and govern, to discipline, or, in the temporary absence of the pope, bishops with such power over Catholics subject to their authority. Christ is a King, a ruler, and not only a priest and prophet.  An indefectible Church that is His body retains the same prerogatives and powers: to be "Him," it must not only sanctify and teach, but govern and rule.

    We are both in a bit of a bind under the old teaching. Either we're both wrong, or the old teaching was wrong. If the old teaching was wrong, then the teachers who taught it were wrong, and were capable in God's order of being wrong, as Scripture indeed says, which is my position. My position squares with that reality; yours entangles you in contradictions.

    So, to sum up: I reject false teachings by duly appointed and legitimately chosen teachers on the basis of Scriptural authority and example where they go beyond their authority and teach contrary to God’s law, and you oppose the teachers on the basis of their predecessors' own prior teachings about themselves and the indefectibility of the Church, which teachings ironically expose your position as false since it a) ironically uses them to reject the teachers or b) for denying the very indefectibility of the Church which is the implicit principle underlying your position for rejecting the Conciliar Church.

    I can't resist highlighting the simple and farcical cartoon version of your position: citing absolute acceptance of the teacher’s teachings as the principle on which you reject the teachings and the teachers.

    And you pull it off all without even blinking.

    Amazing.



    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #36 on: April 26, 2023, 09:23:09 PM »
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  • Reminds me of the absurdity at the 1988 consecrations. "Habetis Mandatum Apostolicuм?" Schmidberger: "Habemus."

    A flat out lie. Not only did they not have an apostolic mandate, they had an explicit prohibition.
    The consecrations of 1988 were performed with the will of the pope, and perfectly in accordance with Canon Law.

    The 'will of the pope' is not a term used for the pope's subjective wishes.  Take the example of 'the intentions of the Holy Father', for which we must pray to get a plenary indulgence.  'The intentions of the Holy Father' are not his private intentions, but actually refers to a list of six defined intentions which always remain the same.  The 'will of the pope' refers to the Office of Peter, not to Karol Wojtyla's unfortunate wishes.

    Canon 1725 says, "The highest law in the Church is the salvation of souls."  It is very simple to prove that the salvation of souls depended on the consecration of the four bishops, without which we could not have truly Catholic priests ordained.  Because John Paul II explicitly expressed his subjective will to be contrary to the objective will of his office, Archbishop Lefebvre took the prescribed formula for the Mandatum Apostolicuм, removed the name 'John Paul II' and replaced it with 'the Church'.

    Not only was Archbishop Lefebvre never excommunicated, the episcopal consecrations of 1988 were entirely canonically correct.

    Offline Donachie

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #37 on: April 26, 2023, 10:29:57 PM »
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  • Gaudium et Spes Ch. 1 #19

    Moreover, atheism results not rarely from a violent protest against the evil in this world, or from the absolute character with which certain human values are unduly invested (? what does that mean?), and which thereby already accords them the stature of God. Modern civilization itself often complicates the approach to God not for any essential reason but because it is so heavily engrossed in earthly affairs. (that's why the Church and the faith need to modernize ... because of the modern world, of course)

    Undeniably, those who willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions are not following the dictates of their consciences, and hence are not free of blame; yet believers themselves frequently bear some responsibility for this situation. For, taken as a whole, atheism is not a spontaneous development but stems from a variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in particular. Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion.

    It sounds like aggiornamento nonsense. Why have a Council for nonsense? Oh, to modernize and help the atheists! The Freemasons too, of course.


    Offline Donachie

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #38 on: April 27, 2023, 03:57:36 PM »
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  • Dignitatis Humane #2

    2. This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.

    What are the due limits and who decides that? Fox News used to say "we rpeort you decide", but who decides the "due limits"? If one reads this closely enough, it has a hint of Rabelais hidden in it, and even worse, possible Aleister Crowley for the Law of Thelema and so forth, e.g. "Do what thou wilt".

    "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" says Crowley. Besides being on the cover of the Beatles Sgt. Pepper's album, there's a story that's been around and on the internets that Aleister Crowley was none other than the materanl grandfather of George Bush II. 

    "Moreover, as the truth is discovered, it is by a personal assent that men are to adhere to it." If this is "pastoral", does it have to be so dumb or naive? The pimps and Freemasons could run a mac truck through the holes in Vatican II.

    Offline Donachie

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #39 on: April 27, 2023, 04:06:08 PM »
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  • I mean, of course, it's understood that it is not with the help of God's grace and corrective formation that men adhere to the truth and the right way, but merely by their own very individual, self-important (even if vice-ridden) personal assent. etc.

    And Joe Biden is yo' Prezident. So please enjoy.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #40 on: April 27, 2023, 04:46:52 PM »
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  • But even if it was, what would be your point? That you're free to ignore and reject your Pope's teaching? Pius IX clearly told you you have to obey everything, from Roman congregations to discipline.

    But maybe Pius IX was wrong.  Thus, the problem, eh?

    What if Pius IX and a couple other popes were wrong about condemning Religious Liberty and Vatican II was right?  How do we know?  Tradition.  R&R claim "Tradition" but that's no different than the Prot claim about the Bible.  Ultimately, they're making their own INTERPRETATION of the Bible (for the Prots) and "Tradition" (for R&R) their proximate rule of faith.

    Now, there is a balance.  Not EVERYthing the Pope has ever opined about is true.  He has to be teaching the Universal Church with some sense of authority (not opining before a group of midwives).  Msgr. Fenton described well the proper balance.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #41 on: April 27, 2023, 04:53:55 PM »
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  • We cannot reject Vatican II in every single line of the docuмents.  The council quotes Trent and other sources that require our belief.  What percentage of the council falls under that category?  Perhaps 5%.  The description of papal infallibility in Vatican II is very beautiful, for example, which doesn't help the fact that a few lines down, that infallibility is more or less pushed aside.

    1. The question is what NEW doctrine did Vatican II define? How useful actually was it, which would prevent us from saying: THROW THE WHOLE THING IN THE FIRES OF HELL WHERE IT BELONGS.

    2. As for the "nuggets of truth", remember that the devil, in his deceptions and lies, utters PLENTY OF TRUTHS in his overall scheme, in order to better deceive you. It's the proverbial lemonade that is perfectly good -- in which he inserts a bit of cyanide. Making the overall drink 99.9% good, but nevertheless FATAL. So percentages aren't everything in this case. Our intellect is attracted to the TRUE, just as our Will is directed to the GOOD. So the devil presents everything as true and good, or else we would never fall for his wiles.

    Just as one would throw his mixed drink (99.9% good lemonade 0.1% poison) back in his face, tell him to go to Hell -- so also we must throw the WHOLE Vatican II into hell, because even the TRUTHS are made use of in such a way, that you are deceived into a whole new religion.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #42 on: April 27, 2023, 05:13:04 PM »
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  • I need to get baptized again..  
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #43 on: April 27, 2023, 07:14:10 PM »
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  • 1. The question is what NEW doctrine did Vatican II define? How useful actually was it, which would prevent us from saying: THROW THE WHOLE THING IN THE FIRES OF HELL WHERE IT BELONGS.

    2. As for the "nuggets of truth", remember that the devil, in his deceptions and lies, utters PLENTY OF TRUTHS in his overall scheme, in order to better deceive you. It's the proverbial lemonade that is perfectly good -- in which he inserts a bit of cyanide. Making the overall drink 99.9% good, but nevertheless FATAL. So percentages aren't everything in this case. Our intellect is attracted to the TRUE, just as our Will is directed to the GOOD. So the devil presents everything as true and good, or else we would never fall for his wiles.

    Just as one would throw his mixed drink (99.9% good lemonade 0.1% poison) back in his face, tell him to go to Hell -- so also we must throw the WHOLE Vatican II into hell, because even the TRUTHS are made use of in such a way, that you are deceived into a whole new religion.
    If tonight someone holds a gun to my head, demanding me to sign Dignitatis Humanae, God give me strength to die a martyr!

    If the gunman demands I sign Vatican II as a whole, I will only do so after having made clear that by virtue of the Explanatory Note, I accept nothing in the texts that contradicts Tradition.

    I will never volunteer to sign my name under the council.

    If I become pope, within 3 minutes the entire council will be Number One on the newly revived Index of Forbidden Books.

    This was the attitude of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Accepting Vatican II
    « Reply #44 on: April 27, 2023, 07:17:02 PM »
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  • If tonight someone holds a gun to my head, demanding me to sign Dignitatis Humanae, God give me strength to die a martyr!

    If the gunman demands I sign Vatican II as a whole, I will only do so after having made clear that by virtue of the Explanatory Note, I accept nothing in the texts that contradicts Tradition.

    I will never volunteer to sign my name under the council.

    If I become pope, within 3 minutes the entire council will be Number One on the newly revived Index of Forbidden Books.

    This was the attitude of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    What is the "Explanatory Note"?
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



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