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Author Topic: Accepting Vatican II  (Read 25124 times)

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Accepting Vatican II
« on: April 24, 2023, 07:45:19 PM »
In the new interview with Bishop Hounder, the statement is given that Archbishop Lefebvre was disposed to accept the entirety of Vatican II.  Bishop Fellay is comfortable in saying that he's simply following the Archbishop when he accepts 95% of Vatican II.  Those of us who grew up in the old SSPX have certainly heard that we do not accept Vatican II at all.  What is the 'percentage of acceptability' of Vatican II?

We cannot reject Vatican II in every single line of the docuмents.  The council quotes Trent and other sources that require our belief.  What percentage of the council falls under that category?  Perhaps 5%.  The description of papal infallibility in Vatican II is very beautiful, for example, which doesn't help the fact that a few lines down, that infallibility is more or less pushed aside.

The great bulk of Vatican II quite resembles the post-conciliar encyclicals in the respect that, whereas for 19 centuries the popes and councils spoke very succinctly, getting straight to the point without an abundance of words, Vatican II rambles on and on and on, for pages and pages, flooding the reader with words that don't really say much at all.  I once heard this category described as 'microwaved doctrine'.  Or think of a giant inflatable.  The docuмents are huge, but just read them; almost nothing but thin air within.  This is certainly 90% of the council.  Ambiguity prevails, as well as the stinky breath of the Revolution, though it is possible to interpret these lines in a Catholic sense.  These lines do not need to be rejected, but if we had a good pope, he would throw the whole thing in the garbage simply because of it's uselessness.  Why give such a huge pile of blah-blah-blah the dignity of getting attention?  This is without even going into the possibility of un-Catholic interpretations of these lines.

What remains is 5%.  This category is the really problematic content.  For example, "The Moslems together with us adore one merciful God."  Or, "The Holy Ghost does not refrain from using the efforts of the protestant churches as means of salvation".  There are about 40 different lines as terrible as these.  No amount of mental gymnastics can help you twist these lines into a Catholic interpretation.

Why, then, would the Archbishop say time and again that he was ready to sign an acceptance of Vatican II?  Even when he took back his initials from the Protocol of '88 it was not because he had changed his mind on this point (rather, it was to prevent the administration of the Society from being turned over to Modernist wolves).

The Archbishop did not mean that he could accept the evil statements at face value.  He specified that because of the Explanatory Note in Lumen Gentium, he could indeed sign below the council taken as a whole.  The Note, which was asked for by Archbishop Lefebvre during the council, and which Paul VI inserted into the official docuмent, says, "... the sacred Council [!?!] defines as binding on the Church only those things in matters of faith and morals which it shall openly declare to be binding".  Well, the council and the conciliar popes many times and clearly stated that they refused to proclaim anything as binding.  To make the Note more succinct, it says, "none of this council must be accepted".  It is there in the council itself!

It was with this Note in view that Archbishop Lefebvre declared himself ready to sign the council as a whole.  Let's see the Neo-SSPX or Bishop Hounder give this explanation!

Re: Accepting Vatican II
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2023, 08:23:45 PM »
The explanation is just because Archbishop Lefebvre was ready to accept 95% of the council doesn't mean Archbishop Lefebvre is no longer credible. What you don't understand is that Archbishop Lefebvre became disillusioned with it later on. We can't write off traditional Catholics who were not traditional catholic their whole life. That's exactly why the Church has converts (and I have seen a few people on this forum not understand this). Fr. Gregory Hesse for example was a personal secretary of Cardinal Stickler from 1986 to 1988 and Cardinal Stickler was one of the members of the commission for the clergy at Vatican II. Fr. Malachi Martin was a personal secretary to Cardinal Bea during the second Vatican council. Fr. Malachi Martin, Fr. Gregory Hesse, and Archbishop Lefebvre all at one time were fine with Vatican II.

What disillusioned all of them was the modernism and all three of them spoke against that modernism in their own ways. Bishop Fellay apparently does not fully understand this. Vatican II ended up not being catholic. Plain and simple. You also need to understand when Archbishop Lefebvre was a Vatican II Council father, he was kicked out by the liberal fathers and the only one to be kicked out. Archbishop Lefebvre disagreed with the other fathers on religious liberty and it caused such a stir, Pope Paul VI had to get involved. As Archbishop Lefebvre said about this:

I was the only one eliminated, my interventions on this topic during the Council and my membership in the Coetus frightened them. - Archbishop Lefebvre


Re: Accepting Vatican II
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2023, 10:20:06 PM »
The Archbishop did not become disillusioned later.  He fought might and main while the council was still in session.  I recommend I Accuse the Council! to see his immediate disillusionment.  The point is that even in 1988 he was ready to sign the council as a whole because of this Explanatory Note, a fact that is deceitfully put forward by Bishop Hounder as a defense for his own acceptance of the council docuмents; an acceptance of a completely different nature.

Re: Accepting Vatican II
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2023, 11:40:56 PM »
Archbishop Lefebvre was all over the place about the council and the Pope. You can carefully pick his writings and give the impression that he favours this or that position. He never fully accepted the council, but, at times, he was very soft about it. Especially when he expected to make some kind of deal with the modernists.

I believe that the fair thing to do is to judge him and his position like God does. God judges you based on your position towars Him just before you die.

What I mean is that we should see what he said in his final years, after the 1988 consecrations. 

If you do that, I believe that you will see clearly that, in the end, he rejected Vatican II and all its ramifications. He gave up on expecting anything from the modernists in 1988.

In a certain sense, this is the main question that opposes the Neo-SSPX and the Resistance.

The present day SSPX insists that Archbishop Lefebvre would accept a deal with the modernists, if it was a satisfactory one. Bp. Williamson and his group say the opposite.

Re: Accepting Vatican II
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2023, 11:50:59 PM »
According to Paul VI you have to accept VII with docility as official Ordinary Magisterium:

"it still provided its teaching with the authority of the supreme ordinary magisterium. This ordinary magisterium, which is so obviously official, has to be accepted with docility, and sincerity by all the faithful"

see here for more:
https://novusordowatch.org/2020/07/how-taylor-marshall-distorts-paul6-on-vatican2/


The RR position does not accept with docility VII's "teaching with the authority of the supreme ordinary magisterium".  That's schism.  It's pick and choose protestantism.


Failure to accept with docility the Ordinary Magisterium is schism:


Pope Pius XI put it in his encyclical, Mortalium Animos, “Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successsors.”


If you accept Paul VI as a legitimate successor you have to accept, recognize and obey ALL of VII.  You cannot pick and choose like a protestant or you are in schism.

If VII says you worship the same god as Muslims, you have to accept, recognize and obey with docility.