“We know now with whom we have to deal. We know perfectly well that we are dealing with a “diabolical hand” which is located at Rome, and which is demanding, by obedience, the destruction of the Church! And this is why we have the right and the duty to refuse this obedience… I believe that I have the right to ask these gentlemen who present themselves in offices which were occupied by Cardinals… “Are you with the Catholic Church?” “Are you the Catholic Church?” “With whom am I dealing?” If I am dealing with someone who has a pact with Masonry, have I the right to speak with such a person? Have I the duty to listen to them and to obey them?” (Archbishop Lefebvre, 1978, Ordination Sermon, “Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre”, Vol. 2, p.209, Michael Davies)
Michael Davis was not buried by an SSPX priest though.
And for the last 20 years of his life I don't think he went to many SSPX masses.
Michael Davis was not buried by an SSPX priest though.
And for the last 20 years of his life I don't think he went to many SSPX masses.
I don't have all the pieces so I am just opining at this time but I do know that a novus ordo priest put his fist on the table and told the crowd "Islam, Judaism and Christianity all worship the same God."
QuoteMichael Davis ...
And just what does that useless piece of information have to do with the price of beer? :thinking:
“We know now with whom we have to deal. We know perfectly well that we are dealing with a “diabolical hand” which is located at Rome, and which is demanding, by obedience, the destruction of the Church! And this is why we have the right and the duty to refuse this obedience… I believe that I have the right to ask these gentlemen who present themselves in offices which were occupied by Cardinals… “Are you with the Catholic Church?” “Are you the Catholic Church?” “With whom am I dealing?” If I am dealing with someone who has a pact with Masonry, have I the right to speak with such a person? Have I the duty to listen to them and to obey them?” (Archbishop Lefebvre, 1978, Ordination Sermon, )
... the basic problem remains unchanged: Rome means to exterminate Tradition...
Quote from: hollingsworthQuoteMichael Davis ...
And just what does that useless piece of information have to do with the price of beer? :thinking:
Exactly. Michael Davies (may he rest in peace) was not the thread topic in the OP; his book was just listed as the source of the quote, which is the thread topic.
And now, back to the thread topic:Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre“We know now with whom we have to deal. We know perfectly well that we are dealing with a “diabolical hand” which is located at Rome, and which is demanding, by obedience, the destruction of the Church! And this is why we have the right and the duty to refuse this obedience… I believe that I have the right to ask these gentlemen who present themselves in offices which were occupied by Cardinals… “Are you with the Catholic Church?” “Are you the Catholic Church?” “With whom am I dealing?” If I am dealing with someone who has a pact with Masonry, have I the right to speak with such a person? Have I the duty to listen to them and to obey them?” (Archbishop Lefebvre, 1978, Ordination Sermon, )
Another one:Quote from: In 1988 Archbishop Lefebvre... the basic problem remains unchanged: Rome means to exterminate Tradition...
Neil O, for me this is the big picture. This is what I have been wrestling with for years. The people who lay claim to the papacy and hierarchy are freemasons. So how can they be legitimate? Which brings us to, what now?
Any way to explained it is the "Diabolical Hand" .
I live through the times of the big changes. So many lost their faith,
and left the church.
"Diabolical Hand" is the only way of explanation.
This is my experience.
Any way to explained it is the "Diabolical Hand" .
I live through the times of the big changes. So many lost their faith, and left the church.
"Diabolical Hand" is the only way of explanation. This is my experience.
Quote from: PerEvangelicaDictaNeil O, for me this is the big picture. This is what I have been wrestling with for years. The people who lay claim to the papacy and hierarchy are freemasons. So how can they be legitimate? Which brings us to, what now?
Someone said that the bishop who consecrated ABL bishop was a Freemason so therefore ABL was never made a real bishop. Do you believe that?
.
Quote from: Neil ObstatQuote from: PerEvangelicaDictaNeil O, for me this is the big picture. This is what I have been wrestling with for years. The people who lay claim to the papacy and hierarchy are freemasons. So how can they be legitimate? Which brings us to, what now?
Someone said that the bishop who consecrated ABL bishop was a Freemason so therefore ABL was never made a real bishop. Do you believe that?
.
I'm unfamiliar with that accusation, Neil O. I pray he who consecrated +ABL had the proper intent. I presune the form and matter would have been evident.
Quote from: Neil ObstatQuote from: PerEvangelicaDictaNeil O, for me this is the big picture. This is what I have been wrestling with for years. The people who lay claim to the papacy and hierarchy are freemasons. So how can they be legitimate? Which brings us to, what now?
Someone said that the bishop who consecrated ABL bishop was a Freemason so therefore ABL was never made a real bishop. Do you believe that?
.
I'm unfamiliar with that accusation, Neil O. I pray he who consecrated +ABL had the proper intent. I presune the form and matter would have been evident.
Sedevacantists should not be allowed to post here. They discredit legitimate traditional Catholicism. When they are not spreading their diabolical theories they are criticizing the errors of the modern hierarchy in the most ugly and bitter way possible, make legitimate traditional Catholic critiques unappealing to those who might otherwise have considered embracing the traditional movement.
There is no reason at all to believe there was any defect in the Archbishop's orders.
This rumor (it really is a rumor) is completely unsubstantiated, and is found in an anonymous source. It's the equivalent of someone walking up to you and saying "I heard you were baptized with milk" and you running to get conditionally baptized based on the stranger's word.
Besides that, sacramental theology doesn't work that way. If a Catholic minister performs a Catholic ceremony with proper matter and form, intent is presumed.
Those who cast doubt on the Archbishop's orders ... are really doing the devil's work, even if they don't realize it.
The validity of Archbishop Lefebvre's ordination and consecration (http://williamsonletters.blogspot.com/2009/02/validity-of-archbishop-lefebvres.html)
September 13, 1992
Dear Friends and Benefactors,
If one looks around one today for examples of insanity, there is not exactly a poverty of choice, but one of the choicest specimens within our ken must be the notion that Archbishop Lefebvre was invalidly ordained as a priest, and/or invalidly consecrated as a bishop.
It is an old piece of insanity which has been around for several years. It first appeared soon after the Archbishop rose to prominence in defense of Catholic Tradition. It has been firmly refuted, but every now and again it still gets wheeled out on stage by enemies of the Archbishop on the right, like an old cardboard cannon, to be fired off amidst theatrical effects with a tremendous pop of a bang, whereupon it disappears back-stage, waiting to be trundled out again for its next dramatic appearance.
Now people who love pops and bangs are thoroughly entitled to a bang for their buck. The only thing is that too many bangs are liable to damage the ear-drums so that one can no longer listen to reason. However, since there are interesting points of doctrine involved in this case, then for all those whose hearing is not too impaired, here are some arguments, drawn in large part from an article written on the question by Michael Davies in "Approaches" #71, November 1, 1980.
Archbishop Lefebvre is supposed to have been an invalid priest and/or bishop because he was both ordained priest and consecrated bishop by Cardinal Lienart, who was a Freemason, and who therefore cannot have had the sacramental intention necessary to perform validly the ordination or consecration of Marcel Lefebvre.
Michael Davies replies, firstly, it is not proved beyond doubt that Cardinal Lienart was a Freemason. Secondly, even if he was a Mason, he did not necessarily have an invalid sacramental intention in confecting a sacrament. Thirdly, every time he externally used the proper sacramental rite in a normal way, he may and must be presumed to have had internally the intention necessary for validity. Fourthly, even if the Cardinal both at the ordination in 1927 and at the consecration in 1947, secretly withheld the necessary sacramental intention, nevertheless Marcel Lefebvre became a valid bishop and priest by either or both of the two bishops co-consecrating him in 1947 with the Cardinal. Let us take each of these points in turn.
...
"We know perfectly well that we are dealing with a “diabolical hand” which is located at Rome, and which is demanding, by obedience, the destruction of the Church."
Just imagine a statement like this proceeding from the lips of Bp. Fellay, Fr. Phluger or Fr. Rostand! These cassocked imposters would just as soon die than say something like this publicly. You have only to publish the countless utterances of the Archbishop throughout his career, then compare them with what comes out of the mouths of these neo-sspx fraudsters.
Quote from: hollingsworthQuoteMichael Davis ...
And just what does that useless piece of information have to do with the price of beer? :thinking:
Exactly. Michael Davies (may he rest in peace) was not the thread topic in the OP; his book was just listed as the source of the quote, which is the thread topic.
And now, back to the thread topic:Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
“We know now with whom we have to deal. We know perfectly well that we are dealing with a “diabolical hand” which is located at Rome, and which is demanding, by obedience, the destruction of the Church! And this is why we have the right and the duty to refuse this obedience… I believe that I have the right to ask these gentlemen who present themselves in offices which were occupied by Cardinals… “Are you with the Catholic Church?” “Are you the Catholic Church?” “With whom am I dealing?” If I am dealing with someone who has a pact with Masonry, have I the right to speak with such a person? Have I the duty to listen to them and to obey them?”
(Archbishop Lefebvre, 1978, Ordination Sermon, )
Another one:Quote from: In 1988 Archbishop Lefebvre
... the basic problem remains unchanged: Rome means to exterminate Tradition...