Author Topic: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate (Read 9334 times)

Clemens Maria · « **Reply #30 on:** December 15, 2020, 11:45:36 AM »

Quote from: PAT317 on December 15, 2020, 11:02:10 AM

.
Interview with the author:
https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=54
.
.
https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=2801
.
^ “The vaccines that are made in aborted fetal cells can’t be completely …all the cell debris can’t be completely purified out of those vaccine preparations, so when you’re getting vaccinated for chicken pox, you’re also receiving proteins & DNA that was originally in those aborted fetal cells. So you’re getting DNA from another human being whose cells have been growing in a laboratory since the 1970s, so who knows what kind of mutations are growing in there. ‘Cause they had to mutate it to grow in the laboratory in the first place. This DNA is getting injected into your body.”

https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=2886

^ “The chicken pox vaccine has more aborted fetal DNA in it than it has active ingredient for the chicken pox.”

Thanks for this! I'm not halfway through yet but she already has said that the idea that the vaccines are from one abortion in the early 70s is a lie. These vaccines are being developed with many aborted babies.

Clemens Maria · « **Reply #31 on:** December 15, 2020, 11:53:58 AM »

Sean, please listen to Pamela Acker at about 35:30 mark: https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=54

I think maybe Fr Ripperger would still support the idea that it is remote material cooperation. Clearly, all these different commentators are not on the same page. But the idea that these fetal cell lines (DNA from aborted babies) are the equivalent of stolen property is persistent and seems to be gaining traction. We should take the more cautious position which in my mind is the stricter view that taking these vaccines is immoral. If every one who claims to be Catholic took the same view, the abortion industry is dead. How can we be justified if our actions contribute to the ongoing murder of babies?

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #32 on:** December 15, 2020, 12:09:31 PM »

Quote

Fr’s Wolf and Copenhagen seem to be saying forget about the remote material, because anyone taking the vaccine receives stolen property (and in willing the benefit, they will the ongoing sin).

That would make cooperation formal, and jettison the whole remote material line of argument from the conversation.

Ok, even if the cooperation is formal, it means you are cooperating with stealing cells, not abortion. If some mad scientist drugged me and stole my kidney, that's not murder. If he stole my kidney and THEN killed me, then murder is a second sin, on top of stealing my kidney.
.
If the fetal cells have to be taken from a live baby, then how is murder part of this discussion? Does the taking of cells kill the child? Or is it survivable? If it's survivable, then one could argue that the taking of cells is separate from the abortion. Even if it's done by the same doctor, these are 2 different acts.
.
Example: A thief goes into a bank and shoots the teller in the foot, so that she'll open the vault and let him take $. The thief gets the money and before he leaves, he decides to shoot her dead, just for fun. The thief's buddies that take part in the stolen $ are (arguably) not guilty for the murder because it wasn't essential to the robbery. His buddies are only guilty for taking part in the theft. The murder was the sole decision of the thief.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #33 on:** December 15, 2020, 12:12:10 PM »

Quote from: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 11:53:58 AM

Sean, please listen to Pamela Acker at about 35:30 mark: https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=54

I think maybe Fr Ripperger would still support the idea that it is remote material cooperation. Clearly, all these different commentators are not on the same page. But the idea that these fetal cell lines (DNA from aborted babies) are the equivalent of stolen property is persistent and seems to be gaining traction. We should take the more cautious position which in my mind is the stricter view that taking these vaccines is immoral. If every one who claims to be Catholic took the same view, the abortion industry is dead. How can we be justified if our actions contribute to the ongoing murder of babies?

Clemens-

Others have mentioned it, but you have been making some rock-solid posts on this topic.

Thank you for your efforts on this difficult subject!!

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #34 on:** December 15, 2020, 12:21:28 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 15, 2020, 12:09:31 PM

Ok, even if the cooperation is formal, it means you are cooperating with stealing cells, not abortion. If some mad scientist drugged me and stole my kidney, that's not murder. If he stole my kidney and THEN killed me, then murder is a second sin, on top of stealing my kidney.
.
If the fetal cells have to be taken from a live baby, then how is murder part of this discussion? Does the taking of cells kill the child? Or is it survivable? If it's survivable, then one could argue that the taking of cells is separate from the abortion. Even if it's done by the same doctor, these are 2 different acts.
.
Example: A thief goes into a bank and shoots the teller in the foot, so that she'll open the vault and let him take $. The thief gets the money and before he leaves, he decides to shoot her dead, just for fun. The thief's buddies that take part in the stolen $ are (arguably) not guilty for the murder because it wasn't essential to the robbery. His buddies are only guilty for taking part in the theft. The murder was the sole decision of the thief.

The vaccine is predicated upon murder (not removing a kidney while you were drugged).

Its not the same thing:

If I steal money from an old lady, then give it to my wife before I go to jail, and she knows how I got the money, but decides to keep it and benefit from it anyway, then her consent to my crime is formal, and she shares in my sin (i.e., theft).

More to the point:

If I kill an old lady in order to steal her money, then give it to my wife before I go to jail, and she knows how I got the money, but decides to keep it and benefit from it anyway, then her consent to my crime (i.e., theft AND murder) is formal, and she shares in my sins.

Is this not correct?

In any case, if you would concede the cooperation in evil is formal, then every manual on moral theology will tell you it is NEVER permissible to cooperate in it.

That's why the SSPX will have to trump this argument (of Fr's Copenhagen and Wolfe), or reverse their position.

Matthew · « **Reply #35 on:** December 15, 2020, 12:33:53 PM »

Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 15, 2020, 12:21:28 PM

The vaccine is predicated upon murder (not removing a kidney while you were drugged).
Its not the same thing:

If I steal money from an old lady, then give it to my wife before I go to jail, and she knows how I got the money, but decides to keep it and benefit from it anyway, then her consent to my crime is formal, and she shares in my sin (i.e., theft).

More to the point:

If I kill an old lady in order to steal her money, then give it to my wife before I go to jail, and she knows how I got the money, but decides to keep it and benefit from it anyway, then her consent to my crime (i.e., theft AND murder) is formal, and she shares in my sins.

Is this not correct?

Yes.

And this whole scamdemic stinks to high heaven. You need to look into Bill Gates, the patents he has, his projects and goals, etc. You also need to look into the "Fourth Industrial Revolution", the World Economic Summit, Klaus Schwab, and "The Great Reset".

This vaccine is NOT what it claims to be. This whole discussion is academic.

IF IF IF IF

- there was a real dangerous plague loose on the world ("pandemic")
- it claimed the lives of many victims, not just those on death's door
- there was no treatment or cure
- it was usually fatal
- a vaccine was feasible or possible, and was developed normally
- vaccines worked, and didn't cause worse problems than the diseases they purport to cure
- the Pharma/Vaccine industry was trustworthy
- said industry didn't get a free pass from government(s) for "immunity from all lawsuits"
- patents/vaccines/war games for THIS VERY PANDEMIC weren't run and prepared for a few months before the "pandemic" started!

Then we might be having this discussion.

And if I had wheels, I'd be a bicycle!

Seraphina · « **Reply #36 on:** December 15, 2020, 12:37:38 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont on December 14, 2020, 04:54:16 PM

And yet these 4 NO bishops remain silent regarding other vaccines that use fetal cells....like the MMR.

For a time, Kraft Foods utilized abortive fetal cell lines in the development or making of their flavored coffee creamers. I believe they stopped, but I’m pretty sure there are other food products, animal feed, and make-up/cosmetics that are guilty. We do not hear anything about this.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #37 on:** December 15, 2020, 12:39:32 PM »

Quote from: Seraphina on December 15, 2020, 12:37:38 PM

For a time, Kraft Foods utilized abortive fetal cell lines in the development or making of their flavored coffee creamers. I believe they stopped, but I’m pretty sure there are other food products, animal feed, and make-up/cosmetics that are guilty. We do not hear anything about this.

Here's the most current list (as of July, 2020): https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/fetalproductsall.pdf

Matthew · « **Reply #38 on:** December 15, 2020, 12:45:39 PM »

Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 15, 2020, 12:39:32 PM

Here's the most current list (as of July, 2020): https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/fetalproductsall.pdf

That's a mercifully short list. I was expecting a much longer list, TBH.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #39 on:** December 15, 2020, 12:53:13 PM »

Quote

If I kill an old lady in order to steal her money, then give it to my wife before I go to jail, and she knows how I got the money, but decides to keep it and benefit from it anyway, then her consent to my crime (i.e., theft AND murder) is formal, and she shares in my sins.

The moral conclusion may be the same, but your argument is that the theft DEPENDS on the murder. My argument is the theft happens independent of the murder, but the murder is done anyway.
.
Again, if a thief HAS to kill someone to rob a bank, then the murder/theft are intertwined, as dependent upon one another. But if the thief robs the bank, but kills for revenge/fun, then the theft and murder are independent acts.

Clemens Maria · « **Reply #40 on:** December 15, 2020, 01:29:58 PM »

Quote from: Matthew on December 15, 2020, 12:33:53 PM

Yes.

And this whole scamdemic stinks to high heaven. You need to look into Bill Gates, the patents he has, his projects and goals, etc. You also need to look into the "Fourth Industrial Revolution", the World Economic Summit, Klaus Schwab, and "The Great Reset".

This vaccine is NOT what it claims to be. This whole discussion is academic.

IF IF IF IF

- there was a real dangerous plague loose on the world ("pandemic")
- it claimed the lives of many victims, not just those on death's door
- there was no treatment or cure
- it was usually fatal
- a vaccine was feasible or possible, and was developed normally
- vaccines worked, and didn't cause worse problems than the diseases they purport to cure
- the Pharma/Vaccine industry was trustworthy
- said industry didn't get a free pass from government(s) for "immunity from all lawsuits"
- patents/vaccines/war games for THIS VERY PANDEMIC weren't run and prepared for a few months before the "pandemic" started!

Then we might be having this discussion.

And if I had wheels, I'd be a bicycle!

Well, that gets back to Sean's other point that there isn't a sufficiently grave reason to take the vaccine in the first place. So even remote material cooperation couldn't be justified. And I agree with the people who are saying that there is never going to be sufficiently grave reason to justify remote material cooperation in the most heinous crime of murdering a baby before it can be baptized. It is one of the 4 crimes which cry out to heaven for vengeance. And then to inject that baby's cells into your body so you won't lose your job? Sorry, I don't sympathize.

Clemens Maria · « **Reply #41 on:** December 15, 2020, 01:55:28 PM »

We probably shouldn't be placing too much importance on keeping our jobs either. More than 25% of the work force was unemployed in the great depression and they had much less infrastructure to fall back on. We may have to be creative and resourceful. There is a guy in Pasadena who grows enough food on a 1/5 acre suburban lot to not only feed his family but to actually make enough income (selling food to restaurants) to live comfortably. You may not be able to afford cable tv and a cell phone. Who cares? You may have to home school. You may have to wear clothes from Good Will or whatever. Maybe sew your own clothes. The vaccine is just the beginning. They are not going to allow you to have a Catholic bible because it is racist/homophobic etc. They will fire you from your job if you believe sodomy is a sin. They are not going to be satisfied with you taking the vaccine. They will only leave you alone if you deny Christ. But then you lose your soul and go to hell. So time to make a commitment now. We're not going to join the new one-world religion even if it costs us our jobs or our lives.

PAT317 · « **Reply #42 on:** December 15, 2020, 01:56:37 PM »

Quote from: Seraphina on December 15, 2020, 12:37:38 PM

For a time, Kraft Foods utilized abortive fetal cell lines in the development or making of their flavored coffee creamers. I believe they stopped, but I’m pretty sure there are other food products, animal feed, and make-up/cosmetics that are guilty. We do not hear anything about this.

.
Why did they stop?
.
If people haven't heard about it in the past, so be it. Once we hear about it, then we need to make moral choices. If I'm not mistaken, the "food" (if we can call their garbage "food") producers stopped because people found out, and there was an outcry. Does anyone think they would have stopped if everyone opposed to it said, "yes, but it's not a mortal sin to eat that food. It's only remote material cooperation, and I can eat it based on the principle of double-effect."
.
There have been many evils going on in the world for decades, and yet, it took the blatant, brazen, in-your-face evils out in the open this year for a lot of people (including lots of non-Catholics) to finally wake up to it. What people did in the past before they became aware of certain evils - nothing can be done about that. What we do in the future, once we know of them, is another matter.

e.g. I know avid pro-lifers (one might say, professional pro-lifers) who as of a few years ago were surprised when I told them there were aborted fetal cells in vaccines.

PAT317 · « **Reply #43 on:** December 15, 2020, 01:59:18 PM »

Quote from: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 01:55:28 PM

We probably shouldn't be placing too much importance on keeping our jobs either. More than 25% of the work force was unemployed in the great depression and they had much less infrastructure to fall back on. We may have to be creative and resourceful. There is a guy in Pasadena who grows enough food on a 1/5 acre suburban lot to not only feed his family but to actually make enough income (selling food to restaurants) to live comfortably. You may not be able to afford cable tv and a cell phone. Who cares? You may have to home school. You may have to wear clothes from Good Will or whatever. Maybe sew your own clothes. The vaccine is just the beginning. They are not going to allow you to have a Catholic bible because it is racist/homophobic etc. They will fire you from your job if you believe sodomy is a sin. They are not going to be satisfied with you taking the vaccine. They will only leave you alone if you deny Christ. But then you lose your soul and go to hell. So time to make a commitment now. We're not going to join the new one-world religion even if it costs us our jobs or our lives.

Another excellent post, CM!

Perhaps related (or not!): Comments of Bp. Strickland of TX:

“I think we should all resist any mandates of vaccines, because a mandatory vaccine is taking our God-given freedom away to make those choices for ourselves. Certainly, I understand that companies and states are under a lot of pressure, but I would encourage people of faith to really push back on any mandating of vaccines … I think we need to resist that."

Mr G · « **Reply #44 on:** December 15, 2020, 02:06:04 PM »

Quote from: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 01:55:28 PM

.... The vaccine is just the beginning. They are not going to allow you to have a Catholic bible because it is racist/homophobic etc. They will fire you from your job if you believe sodomy is a sin. They are not going to be satisfied with you taking the vaccine. They will only leave you alone if you deny Christ. But then you lose your soul and go to hell. So time to make a commitment now. We're not going to join the new one-world religion even if it costs us our jobs or our lives.

This is correct. If only half of Trad Catholics were to realize this, then we would be able to start resisting these evil plots now and see some results. But if we do nothing then it will not take too long before we are sitting in our prison cell, or hiding in the forest wishing we stood up against these criminals when we had a chance.

Author Topic: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate (Read 9334 times)

Clemens Maria

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate

Clemens Maria

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate

Pax Vobis

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate

SeanJohnson

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate

SeanJohnson

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate

Matthew

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate

Seraphina

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate

SeanJohnson

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate

Matthew

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate

Pax Vobis

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate

Clemens Maria

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate

Clemens Maria

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate

PAT317

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate

PAT317

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate

Mr G

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate