Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate  (Read 9335 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12237
  • Reputation: +7742/-2354
  • Gender: Male
Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2020, 08:57:48 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    By your own citation, they referred to abortion as "ONE OF" mankind's greatest crimes, and you go on to attack them as if they were asserting that it is THE single greatest crime of mankind.
    My point stands.  I am showing that their moral compass can't be completely trusted because 1) being these 4 bishops are still part of the V2 machine, they have yet to chastise the new mass and V2 with the same gusto and fervor that they use against abortion.  And it's beyond a doubt that a single new mass is more offensive to God than all abortions added together.  Mocking Our Lord's sacrifice on the cross is so heinous that it doesn't even come close to the crime of murder.
    .
    2) I agree, it's a small point, but still valid.  On a natural level, their words say abortion is not the greatest evil, but their actions say otherwise.  What other sin gets the V2 clergy riled up and motivated to preach/write, but abortion? 

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46813
    • Reputation: +27669/-5138
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #16 on: December 15, 2020, 09:00:36 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Problem 3 - These 4 Bishops make allowances for material cooperation in some sins, but not in abortion.  Why?
    The most problematic paragraph of the article written by the 4 bishops is the following.  I split the paragraph into 3 parts, because each part is a different argument, and which corresponds to the 3 Problems I laid out above:
    .
    The theological principle of material cooperation is certainly valid and may be applied to a whole host of cases (e.g. in paying taxes, the use of products made from slave labor, and so on).

    Your problems 1b and 2 are more of the same, complaining about how the NO has overemphasized their opposition to abortion ... to the exclusion of all other moral issues.  I'm not even going to bother with that, since it has nothing to do with the question at hand.

    There must be some PROPORTIONATE reason even for REMOTE MATERIAL participation in evil, and the justifying reason must somehow be proportionate to the gravity of the original crime.  So, for instance, the standard for me to materially participate in someone having stolen a candy bar from a convenience store is much lower than for me to materially participate in murder or in an entire murder industry.

    What these bishops are saying, and this is, as I said, their major contribution, which woke Bishop Williamson up, is that we are NOT merely participating in a single isolated act of abortion but in the entire abortion industry, this silent genocide that has been taking place for decades now.

    There are different ways to be party to sin.  Let's take the example of sodomy.  Even if someone isn't a sodomite and has never committed an act of sodomy and would never think of it, one can be a formal active participant in the crime of sodomy if one were to publicly advocate that there's nothing wrong with it, or more directly, if one were a politician promoting legislation to legalize it and give it recognition.  This person would be guilty of something else than actual sodomy.

    Similarly, there are two crimes taking place here in the vaccines.  One was an abortion that took place 60 years ago.  If that's ALL there were and this act could be viewed in isolation, where it was done by some woman in a back alley using coat hangers, against the law, then I could see the remote material cooperation argument being made.  But here we have a society which has LEGALIZED abortion and LEGALIZED the use of aborted fetal tissue in vaccines (and for other uses), and the vaccine is in fact the product of this legalization of abortion.  Consequently, by accepting the vaccine, we are participating in the legalization and approbation of abortion, and not merely in that single isolated abortion ... just like with the sodomy issue, where the guy is guilty, having never committed sodomy, of participating in the legalization and approbation of sodomy.

    There's also the ongoing and present crime regarding the desecration of the human remains, part of which are arguably still present in the vaccine.  Even if it has been since transformed into a different substance, the fact that it derived from a human being still makes it a sin to abuse the remains.  Even if a person were cremated into a pile of ashes (which were not longer substantially his essence), the material continuity would preclude abuse of these ashes, using them, for instance, as kitty litter.  If I buy a vehicle I know was stolen, I am guilty of participating in the theft, even if I claim not to condone the original theft.  By my actions, I am condoning it, and I am participating in a present an ongoing act of injustice by remaining in possession of something that does not belong to me in justice.

    You're so busy worried about formal this and material that, that you've lost your moral compass.  These bishops, even if they don't have as solid a grasp on scholastic terminology, have the correct moral compass regarding this issue.  God does not expect every Catholic to be a Thomistic moral theologian who can form syllogism and make distinctions.

    It is a grave sin to participate in this horror that is the legalization of abortion and the abortion industry, and every Catholic with a good moral compass knows it.  Indeed, if we were just talking about a single isolated abortion that happened a long time ago, yes, indeed, one COULD conceivably make the "remote material" argument.  But participating in a culture where abortion is legal and permitted, that's essentially a FORMAL cooperation.  As the promoter of sodomy in my earlier example did not materially commit sodomy, he nevertheless formally participated in it by advocating its legalization.  So it is THAT FORMAL ONGOING PRESENT EVIL, the promotion of abortion's LEGALITY is what we're participating in by accepting these vaccines.  It's very similar to voting for a pro-sodomite and pro-abortionist politician ... even if I have no actual inclination to sodomy or desire to commit any abortions.


    Offline confederate catholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 823
    • Reputation: +304/-44
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #17 on: December 15, 2020, 09:34:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • https://lozierinstitute.org/a-visual-aid-to-viral-infection-and-vaccine-production/

    The above has how vaccines types are created

    The file shows what ones have or use fetal cells.

    Do not agree with all that they say
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline confederate catholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 823
    • Reputation: +304/-44
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #18 on: December 15, 2020, 09:36:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #19 on: December 15, 2020, 09:57:10 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • And I'd counter it with 20 down votes.  It's total crap filled with invalid and specious arguments.  When/if I have time I'll address every one of his "points".
    Let me be clear, I am totally against the vaccine for multiple reasons, but I believe Pax makes the cogent point that many Catholics seem to wrongly believe that abortion is the ultimate sin. It is not. One should avoid any vaccine that is made using aborted baby cells, but it seems to me that double effect *could possibly* be allowed in certain cases. We are in uncharted waters and this is precisely why we need a pope to guide us.
    If the point you’re making is correct, then none of us in good conscience could give a dime in taxes or participate in any election due to our remote cooperation in government sanctioned sins. Is that your case?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Clemens Maria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2246
    • Reputation: +1485/-605
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #20 on: December 15, 2020, 09:59:35 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fr Copenhagen's article makes the same arguments as Ladislaus:

    https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/VaccineFrCopenhagen.pdf

    Restore Ye to Its Owners: on the immorality of receiving vaccines derived from abortion

    by Fr. Michael Copenhagen

    “Take heed lest perhaps it be stolen: restore ye to its owners, for it is not lawful for us to eat or to touch anything that cometh by theft.” -Tobit 2:21

    Such is the warning given by the just man Tobit, who suffered mockery, persecution, and tribulation at the hands of his own people because he sought to keep God’s law, to alone refuse idolatry and corruption in an evil age. He insisted on honoring God and neighbor by burying the dead at a time when the desecration of their remains was the state mandate. For this great deed, he was forced to flee and placed under a sentence of death. Holy Scripture relates this account because burying the dead is more than just a corporal work of mercy, it is a grave obligation so that the creature whom the Creator loves so much, fashioned after his own image and likeness, is not abandoned at the wayside to be disfigured and dishonored while the rest of us callously step over his remains to go about our daily commerce. Was not the dignity of the human body and soul elevated still more after the time of Tobit when our nature was assumed by the Son of God who took flesh of the Virgin and came in our likeness that we might be irreversibly elevated above the angels? Tobit’s predicament stemmed from honoring human nature and its Creator, and Tobit’s predicament now belongs to those who refuse vaccines made from aborted children.

    How is this so? It is best to set aside sterilizing semantics to look at the plain truth. A child is torn fromits mother’s womb, and then immediately dissected, if possible alive with beating heart so that the sample is fresh. A piece of the child’s organ is then taken to a laboratory, immersed in an enzyme to break the tissue down into individual cells, and when a continually reproducing “immortal” cell line has been obtained after many such abortions, it is patented and the cells industrially multiplied in vats to become viral factories.(1) When a sufficient amount of the infectious virus is grown in the cells, the brew is processed in a way which destroys the whole cells but leaves behind the virus along with significant amounts of the child’s DNA and cellular protein. In the various states and territories, parents are required to administer this into the bodies of their children for the sake of the public good even though the vaccine could be produced in an alternative and ethical manner. Those who refuse it are banned from the public square.

    Any healthy conscience has a natural revulsion to this ghoulish process and closer moral analysis certainly justifies that reaction. In determining the moral liceity of using vaccines derived from abortion, an assessment of cooperation with evil in terms of distance from the original abortion is a necessary but ultimately insufficient criterion because there is another distinct and more immediate category of sin involved. To conclude, as some have, that there is only mediate remote material cooperation in abortion by the vaccine recipient is a red herring. It shifts emphasis away from the specific moral character of possessing and using the cell line itself toward “historical association” with the original abortion, obscuring the central problem while even causing it to go unnamed. The recipient is an immediate participant in the commission of continuous theft of human remains obtained through deliberate killing, their desecration through exploitation and trafficking, as well as ultimate omission to respectfully bury them. While the original killing establishes the illicit character of using the remains, their possession and use becomes a distinct evil in itself, the circuмstances of which do not cease as a form of theft, desecration, exploitation, and refusal to bury, regardless of the consumer’s distance in time from the abortion, or the number of cell divisions, or the merely sub-cellular fragmentary inclusion of the child’s DNA and protein in the final dose.

    Two sanitizing mischaracterizations contribute to this unwarranted shift in emphasis away from immediate continuing theft toward “historic” completed abortion. Firstly, the broadness of labelling human remains obtained through violence as “illicit biological material” is not only insufficient but dehumanizing and offensive. Although the vast majority if not all of the cells currently used did not physically constitute part of the child’s original body, these cells still belong to the child. They are a living remnant of the child’s life in this world. If they are not the child’s cells then whose cell’s are they? Is it possible to stretch jargon so far as to say that these are no one’s cells? No person donating their tissue for cell culture and knowingly encountering the resultant cells in a lab would identify them as anything other than “my DNA, my cells.” The child has been silenced, the parents have forfeited by abortion any right of consent to respectful scientific use of the body, the scientists and patent holders have no right to possess or use the cells: these human remains belong to God, must be respectfully reposed, and it is not for Caesar to say otherwise.

    Secondly, “historical distance” from the abortion does not distance us from the possession of somethingstolen. If I am the beneficiary of a violent bank robbery where the clerk was murdered to secure funds, my personal distance from the robbery does not make it licit to possess or spend those funds or even other monies made playing the stock market with them. If this is the case with lifeless currency, how much more with the body of an innocent human being. If a copyrighted film is captured, reproduced, and sold through the internet, it does not somehow become licit to possess and use it simply because it has been copied many times over from the original, even if I have provided the means of copying, storage, and playback. The copyright protected item is the original artistic creation. Our artist is the Divine Author of human nature who produces a unique biological and spiritual work in His own image and likeness. It is absurd to say to public consumers that everyone must indefinitely use stolen work to help lessen the likelihood of a potential future problem even though a perfectly fine substitute can be easily and ethically provided. How much more with cannibalizing human remains obtained through violence. No one is bound to participate in one sin in order to avoid another. It is never permissible to do evil for a good purpose.

    For those who argue that participation becomes licit if receiving the vaccine is looked at as a temporarysolution to a significant public health danger, they should know that it is not temporary but expanding and that it will be forced regardless of whether it helps public health or not. Public authorities who support public murder cannot be taken seriously as guarantors of public health. If immortality through medicine is the new religion then the insurance card is our baptismal certificate, psychiatry its confession, doctors its priests, the medical bureaucracy its hierarchy, research its contemplation, euthanasia its anointing, and its eucharist is the pharmaceutical solution, particularly vaccination. One person is sacrificed that the nation might live, their body multiplied and distributed by the priests. “Those who do not eat the flesh and drink the blood of this sacrifice will not have life in them.” So we are told. It seems there is little more than a lab coat between this and human sacrifice as medicinal witchcraft.

    And there is an inquisition coming for those who contradict the new dogma. In one Washington Postarticle, we are put on notice:
      “The initial steps we have taken are essential: prohibit non-vaccinated children from public spaces,including schools; promote educational efforts; and, in extreme cases, force isolation on pockets ofpopulations...Viewed through the lens of public safety, it is the parents who should be punished. Why notmake them pay for the harms they are causing?...Fines for the increased public safety burdens put onthese communities by a few ought not to be the responsibility of all. In many states, when hikers ignorewarnings that certain trails are too dangerous and then have to be rescued, the fees for the rescue must bepaid by the hikers. It’s a fine for making a self-centered decision that placed an unreasonable burden ona larger community. Measles should be no different...In the same way we have created sex-offenderslists to protect our children, communities can inventory families that choose not to be vaccinated,notifying employers of these parents as well as neighbors who may choose not to expose their children.”(2)

    Isolation, fines, public humiliation, and blacklisting. There is historic precedent as to where this leads. Despite the public threat in his own day, Tobit proceeded in his work under the command that he be slain, obeying the law of God rather than the unjust law of men while risking his life to do so. God made him an example of faithfulness amidst hardship. When he was mocked by his kinsmen for adherence to these good works and told that his deeds were hopeless, he rebuked them: “Speak not so. For we are the children of saints, and look for that life which God will give to those that never change their faith from Him.”(3) I remind all those who imitate Tobit’s naysayers and persecutors that the God of heaven and earth is very much alive and very much offended, that He loves each of these murdered and exploited children as His particular creatures, that He will restore life to their bodies in the Resurrection on the last day, rejoining body and soul in these innocents who were denied baptism and the chance to live based on the whim of tinkerers trying to extend our finite years, that He will restore this “biological material” to its rightful place and its rightful owner on that day, and we will all meet these children face to face.


    1 A lengthy account of the development and use of this process is given by Dr. Leonard Hayflick in an interview where heexplicitly discusses his creation of the WI-38 fetal cell line.

    2 Julliette Kayyem. Anti-vaxxers are dangerous. Make them face isolation, fines, arrests. 30 April 2019. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/04/30/time-get-much-tougher-anti-vaccine-crowd/

    3 Tobias 2:17-18

    Offline Clemens Maria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2246
    • Reputation: +1485/-605
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #21 on: December 15, 2020, 10:08:56 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fr Wolfe article:

    https://cogforlife.org/fr-phil-wolfe/#more-840

    The Morality of using Vaccines derived from Fetal Tissue Cultures:
    A Few Considerations
    Fr. Phil Wolfe, FSSP
    Catholics troubled by the morality of using vaccines derived from fetal tissue cultures should be mindful of the ancient axiom: Bonum ex integra causa, malum ex quocuмque defectu.  (Goodness arises from an integral cause, evil arises from any defect whatsoever)

    What does this axiom mean?  It means that the moral goodness or evil of an act can be determined by a thoughtful assessment of the act itself, as well as its attending circuмstances.  A good act, attended by good circuмstances, is said to have an integral cause, and thus can be safely performed by Catholics;  but however admirable an act may be in other respects, if even one of the circuмstances is gravely evil, the act cannot be recommended to Catholics.

    How, then, can a Catholic thoughtfully assess the morality of an act, such as these vaccinations?

    He must determine the goodness by assessing the morality of the object and the circuмstances of the act.

    The first consideration is to assess the moral object of the act.  What is the moral object of a vaccination?  Let’s use a specific example to illustrate: an immunization against Measles, Mumps and Rubella using the MMR II vaccine.  Since the moral object of any act is the exterior act as proposed by reason, in this case, the moral object of the act of immunizing a child with MMR II is to give him an inoculation with this vaccine so as to induce an immune response – so that he will be immune to measles, mumps and rubella.  This – in itself – is a good moral object.

    The circuмstances which surround the MMR II vaccination must now be considered. The circuмstances are those things that “stand around” an act, and qualify it in some manner.  There are 7 circuмstances: who, what, where, by what aid, why, how and when.   (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo,q. 2, a. 6.)  If all the attending circuмstances are good, or indifferent, then that act is good; that act arises from an integral cause.  If one or more of the attending circuмstances are evil, then there is a defect, and the act itself is evil.

    For this particular act, that of immunizing a child with MMR II, the circuмstance which deserves close scrutiny is “by what aid.”  “By what aid” refers to the instrumental cause, or agent of the act, in this case the MMR II vaccine, a product produced using fetal tissue, obtained from an aborted baby, as a culture medium.

    At this point a feeling of extreme unease might overcome the Catholic who is attempting to assess the morality of this procedure.  He recognizes that the moral object of the act is good – to immunize a child against these diseases –  and he recognizes that if all the attending circuмstances were good, he could safely conclude that this act would be good.  But now he reaches the uneasy notion that this vaccine is tainted in some fashion, since it was produced using fetal tissue.  May he then use it – since he is not directly approving of the abortion which made production of this vaccine possible?  He wonders, does this circuмstance “by what aid” pertain here?  Can he disclaim the origin of this vaccine, as some have argued, on the basis that his use would only be a remote material cooperation with the intrinsic evil of the direct abortion and use of the aborted baby’s tissue?

    In order to answer these questions, he should pay thoughtful attention to the rules for restitution for a possessor in bad faith, which is to say, that he should study the “rules for returning things that he knows don’t belong to him.”

    Now, in order that a Catholic get a reasonably solid grasp on the rules for restitution for a possessor in bad faith, a few illustrations will first be offered; and then the rules will be applied to the situation at hand.
    Imagine a man steals his neighbor’s lawnmower.  He knows full well that he has NO right to this thing.  This man is in bad faith.  So possession in bad faith means that the man who has the goods in bad faith knows full well that they are not rightfully his.

    Now, suppose that the thief sells this lawnmower to another man for a very good price, and tells him that the price is so cheap because the lawnmower is stolen.   Is the man who just bought this lawnmower – knowing full well it was stolen – in good faith?  No, he’s also an example of possession in bad faith.  Now, supposing, in either of these cases, the man who has unjust possession of this lawnmower repents:  What does he have to do?

    There’s one basic rule:  A man in bad faith has to make restitution for ALL the foreseeable damage caused to the lawful owner.  It’s easy to understand – he’s responsible for the damage, so he has to fix it.
    Now what does that mean, in these cases?

    1) he has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, a stolen lawnmower.
     2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.  So, even if he doesn’t have the lawnmower anymore, he still owes the poor man he stole it from either the equivalent value in  money or an equivalent lawnmower.

    Now, suppose a little more complicated situation: Suppose that the original owner of the lawnmower used it for business.  And now he is sitting around without his equipment, unable to work, since his mower was stolen. And suppose, again, that the thief repents.  What does the thief have to do for restitution?

    1) The thief still has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, a stolen lawnmower.
     2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.

    Now, he has Another responsibility, since a man in bad faith has to make good for all the foreseeable damage caused to the lawful owner.  And that is the 3rd point:

    3) He has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered – in this case, the $ lost from being unable to work has to be restored to the owner.

    Now suppose a even more complicated situation:  Suppose the thief put some work into the lawnmower; suppose that he did 3 things – he painted it  – not because it needed paint but to make sure he didn’t get caught with a stolen lawnmower. Then, he had it tuned up since it was running a little rough, and this tune-up was definitely very useful.  Then, since the blade was so dinged up it hardly cut, he put a new blade on the mower.  And after putting all this into this stolen lawnmower, he repented.  What does he have to do now?

    1) the thief still has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: the stolen lawnmower.
     2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.
     3) He still has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered – in this case, the money lost from being unable to work has to be restored to the owner.
     4) But this time – He can deduct any useful or necessary expenses – a useful expense improves the item; a necessary expense preserves it.  For example, the tune-up was a useful expense; the new blade was a necessary expense.  But the paint wasn’t either useful or necessary but only done for the sake of camouflage, so he can’t deduct that expense.

    Now, suppose an entirely different situation: Imagine a rustler who steals about 20 head of cows., and then, 2 years later, he repents.  What is he responsible for?

    1) A thief  has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, 20 head of cows – not bulls, not steers.
     2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.  So, if he sold some of the cows, he has to replace that same number.
     3) He has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered – in this case, the money lost from not having those 2 years of a calf-crop.
     4) He can deduct any useful or necessary expenses – a useful expense improves the item; a necessary expense preserves it.  For example, veterinary bills and pasturage.

    Here’s the new addition:
     5) He has to restore all the natural products of the property.   Lawnmowers don’t have natural products.  But cows do.  What are natural products?  Something produced naturally, by the very nature of the creature.  In the case of cattle, the natural products of beef cows are calves.  Milk cows – milk and calves…. For an apple tree, it’s apples… for a peach tree, it’s the peaches, for a hay field, the hay,  and so forth… So this rustler has to return any calves, heifers, steers or bulls born out of those 20 head since he stole them.  He can’t keep them.  He can’t build up a herd on stolen cattle.  They have to go back; they belong to the original owner. He can’t profit on his rustling.

    Now how does all this apply to the situation with the MMR II vaccine?  If a man in bad faith has to restore all the natural products of the property he has unjust possession of, how can the pharmaceutical companies possibly justify their possession of the natural product of a little baby,  the tissue used to culture the vaccine; the same tissue which was – in an act of supreme injustice – carved out of the flesh of a baby?  It is crystal clear that all those involved are in bad faith, and that restitution must be made; that these tissues not only not be utilized in any sort of experimentation or production at all, but that they be allowed to die.  There are no provisos in the rules for restitution which could excuse a possessor in bad faith from returning his ill-gotten goods, on the condition that he could do all kinds of interesting research with his contraband.  These people are in bad faith, and they are in unjust possession of someone else’s tissues without any  right.

    But, you say, what if the mother agreed to donate the tissue from her aborted child for research?  The parents have no right to donate their aborted child for medical research.  Bodily rights ultimately belong to God and when He creates us He gives us conditional rights over our bodies. Through natural death, God cedes the right over the body to the next of kin (or state if there is no next of kin). When someone is murdered, they violate not only the person’s conditional rights over their body, but they also usurp God’s rights by killing that person. God’s rights are usurped because it is ultimately God’s body to give to whom He pleases. Through natural death it is clear that God is giving the body to someone else because He has taken it from the person who had it. So in abortion, the parents have usurped rights over the child’s body which is not theirs because God did not cede the rights to them; they illicitly took them. Therefore, the parents of an aborted child or the person who murders can not use the body of the person they killed. With abortion and murder, the only way that justice is served is that the body must be buried. This in a sense gives the body back to God and it respects the right of the individual by not doing anything with the body since the person’s will regarding their body can not be ascertained.

    The notion of possession in bad faith – when applied to fetal tissue culture – is only an analogical usage. Why?  Because unlike the situation wherein a rustler could actually purchase the cattle he had stolen, and thus come into legitimate possession of that previously stolen livestock –  no power on Earth can give anyone the right to possess, purchase or preserve tissue taken from a sacrificed baby.   Human tissue obtained in such a manner is not an object of possession, and can never be an object of possession, irregardless if they are producing vaccines for every disease on Earth.  The evil use of fetal tissue for someone’s good cannot justify the situation: it is a screaming violation of justice.  In this case, the circuмstance of “by what aid” is evil, and therefore the whole act of immunizing a child with the MMR II vaccine, as originally considered, is evil:  Bonum ex integra causa, malum ex quocuмque defectu.  (Goodness arises from an integral cause, evil arises from any defect whatsoever.)

    It is immoral to knowingly use any medical products – vaccines, monoclonal antibodies, stem cells, you name it, which are derived from tissue obtained via abortion or embryonic destruction.

    Appendix:

    The rules for the duty of restitution.

    A man may be possessed of the property of another without a just title either through an act of injustice, e.g., fraud, theft, usury, etc., or in good faith, e.g., by purchase, donation, or legacy.  In the former case there is a culpa theologica, i.e., a formal violation of strict justice (iustitia commutativa), in the latter there is merely a material injustice.  These two forms of unjust possession determine the manner in which restitution must be made.

    The general rules for determining the duty of restitution are the following: 
    a) “Res clamat domino,” i.e., the rightful owner is entitled to his property, no matter into whose hands it may have fallen.  This rule follows necessarily from the nature of property and ownership.  In applying it, however, due regard must be paid to prescription, etc.
     b) “Res fructificat domino,” i.e., the rightful owner is entitled to the fruits of his property, provided, of course, he has not ceded this right to others.
     c) “Res naturaliter perit domino,” i.e., the right of ownership is bound up with the object owned and ceases with that object.  If the object has perished, but its value continues, the original owner is entitled to the latter, as e.g., when a ton of wheat has been sold and the sum received is still in the hands of the seller.  If a thing has perished not from natural causes, but through the fault of the possessor, the owner is entitled to restitution.
     d) “Nemo ex re aliena locupletari potest,” i.e., no one has a right to enrich himself with the property of another, for the fruits of that property do not belong to the unlawful possessor but to the rightful owner.  

    If the possessor can not reach the owner, he must make restitution to the heirs.

    The fruits of a thing (fructus rei) may be:
    1) Fructus naturales, natural, i.e., derived from the thing itself (beneficio naturae) without the co-operation of man, or with but slight co-operation on his part, for example, fruits of trees, wood in a forest, grass on a meadow, milk, wool, etc.;
     2) Fructus industriales, i.e., fruits of human industry or toil, such as the profits from a sale or purchase, etc.;
     3) Fructus mixti, which are partly the result of industry (ex industria) and partly of the natural or artificial fertility of the property  (ex re ipsa), for instance, grain, wine, etc.;
     4) Fructus civiles, which are derived from an object by means of the civil law, e.g., rent, salary, etc.  The latter category may be reduced to the first (fructus naturales).


    I. One may be in possession of the property of another either in bad faith or in good faith.  A possessor malae fidei is one who knows, or has good reason for believing, that the property he holds belongs to another.  Such a one is bound to restore to the rightful owner whatever the latter has been unjustly deprived of, that is to say:
     a) The stolen property itself, for “res clamat domino.”  If the property no longer exists, its value must be restored.  If it has deteriorated in value whilst under the control of the unlawful possessor, restitution must be made of the value it had when it was taken from its rightful owner.  If its value has increased, it must be restored as it is, with all its fruits, for, “res fructificat domino.”  If the stolen property fluctuated in value after the theft, the owner’s loss bust be made good, and if he intended to sell it when at its highest value, that value must be restored to him.
     b) All the fruits of the property, natural, industrial, and mixed, must be restored to its owner.  But any necessary or useful expensed incurred by the legitimate possessor for the preservation or improvement of the property, as well as such fruits as may be the result of special efforts on his part, may be deducted.
     c) The damage suffered by the owner in consequence of being deprived of what belonged to him (damnum emergens) as well as any profits he may have lost (lucrum cessans), must also be restored to him.


    (From A Handbook of Moral Theology by the Reverend Antony Koch, D.D., adapted and edited by Arthur Preuss.  Volume V.  Man’s Duties to His Fellowmen.  B. Herder Book Company.  St Louis, MO.  1933 pp. 379-383.)

    Offline Clemens Maria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2246
    • Reputation: +1485/-605
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #22 on: December 15, 2020, 10:18:48 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fr Ripperger video:



    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #23 on: December 15, 2020, 10:38:13 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fr Wolfe article:

    https://cogforlife.org/fr-phil-wolfe/#more-840

    The Morality of using Vaccines derived from Fetal Tissue Cultures:
    A Few Considerations
    Fr. Phil Wolfe, FSSP
    Catholics troubled by the morality of using vaccines derived from fetal tissue cultures should be mindful of the ancient axiom: Bonum ex integra causa, malum ex quocuмque defectu.  (Goodness arises from an integral cause, evil arises from any defect whatsoever)

    What does this axiom mean?  It means that the moral goodness or evil of an act can be determined by a thoughtful assessment of the act itself, as well as its attending circuмstances.  A good act, attended by good circuмstances, is said to have an integral cause, and thus can be safely performed by Catholics;  but however admirable an act may be in other respects, if even one of the circuмstances is gravely evil, the act cannot be recommended to Catholics.

    How, then, can a Catholic thoughtfully assess the morality of an act, such as these vaccinations?

    He must determine the goodness by assessing the morality of the object and the circuмstances of the act.

    The first consideration is to assess the moral object of the act.  What is the moral object of a vaccination?  Let’s use a specific example to illustrate: an immunization against Measles, Mumps and Rubella using the MMR II vaccine.  Since the moral object of any act is the exterior act as proposed by reason, in this case, the moral object of the act of immunizing a child with MMR II is to give him an inoculation with this vaccine so as to induce an immune response – so that he will be immune to measles, mumps and rubella.  This – in itself – is a good moral object.

    The circuмstances which surround the MMR II vaccination must now be considered. The circuмstances are those things that “stand around” an act, and qualify it in some manner.  There are 7 circuмstances: who, what, where, by what aid, why, how and when.   (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo,q. 2, a. 6.)  If all the attending circuмstances are good, or indifferent, then that act is good; that act arises from an integral cause.  If one or more of the attending circuмstances are evil, then there is a defect, and the act itself is evil.

    For this particular act, that of immunizing a child with MMR II, the circuмstance which deserves close scrutiny is “by what aid.”  “By what aid” refers to the instrumental cause, or agent of the act, in this case the MMR II vaccine, a product produced using fetal tissue, obtained from an aborted baby, as a culture medium.

    At this point a feeling of extreme unease might overcome the Catholic who is attempting to assess the morality of this procedure.  He recognizes that the moral object of the act is good – to immunize a child against these diseases –  and he recognizes that if all the attending circuмstances were good, he could safely conclude that this act would be good.  But now he reaches the uneasy notion that this vaccine is tainted in some fashion, since it was produced using fetal tissue.  May he then use it – since he is not directly approving of the abortion which made production of this vaccine possible?  He wonders, does this circuмstance “by what aid” pertain here?  Can he disclaim the origin of this vaccine, as some have argued, on the basis that his use would only be a remote material cooperation with the intrinsic evil of the direct abortion and use of the aborted baby’s tissue?

    In order to answer these questions, he should pay thoughtful attention to the rules for restitution for a possessor in bad faith, which is to say, that he should study the “rules for returning things that he knows don’t belong to him.”

    Now, in order that a Catholic get a reasonably solid grasp on the rules for restitution for a possessor in bad faith, a few illustrations will first be offered; and then the rules will be applied to the situation at hand.
    Imagine a man steals his neighbor’s lawnmower.  He knows full well that he has NO right to this thing.  This man is in bad faith.  So possession in bad faith means that the man who has the goods in bad faith knows full well that they are not rightfully his.

    Now, suppose that the thief sells this lawnmower to another man for a very good price, and tells him that the price is so cheap because the lawnmower is stolen.   Is the man who just bought this lawnmower – knowing full well it was stolen – in good faith?  No, he’s also an example of possession in bad faith.  Now, supposing, in either of these cases, the man who has unjust possession of this lawnmower repents:  What does he have to do?

    There’s one basic rule:  A man in bad faith has to make restitution for ALL the foreseeable damage caused to the lawful owner.  It’s easy to understand – he’s responsible for the damage, so he has to fix it.
    Now what does that mean, in these cases?

    1) he has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, a stolen lawnmower.
     2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.  So, even if he doesn’t have the lawnmower anymore, he still owes the poor man he stole it from either the equivalent value in  money or an equivalent lawnmower.

    Now, suppose a little more complicated situation: Suppose that the original owner of the lawnmower used it for business.  And now he is sitting around without his equipment, unable to work, since his mower was stolen. And suppose, again, that the thief repents.  What does the thief have to do for restitution?

    1) The thief still has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, a stolen lawnmower.
     2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.

    Now, he has Another responsibility, since a man in bad faith has to make good for all the foreseeable damage caused to the lawful owner.  And that is the 3rd point:

    3) He has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered – in this case, the $ lost from being unable to work has to be restored to the owner.

    Now suppose a even more complicated situation:  Suppose the thief put some work into the lawnmower; suppose that he did 3 things – he painted it  – not because it needed paint but to make sure he didn’t get caught with a stolen lawnmower. Then, he had it tuned up since it was running a little rough, and this tune-up was definitely very useful.  Then, since the blade was so dinged up it hardly cut, he put a new blade on the mower.  And after putting all this into this stolen lawnmower, he repented.  What does he have to do now?

    1) the thief still has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: the stolen lawnmower.
     2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.
     3) He still has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered – in this case, the money lost from being unable to work has to be restored to the owner.
     4) But this time – He can deduct any useful or necessary expenses – a useful expense improves the item; a necessary expense preserves it.  For example, the tune-up was a useful expense; the new blade was a necessary expense.  But the paint wasn’t either useful or necessary but only done for the sake of camouflage, so he can’t deduct that expense.

    Now, suppose an entirely different situation: Imagine a rustler who steals about 20 head of cows., and then, 2 years later, he repents.  What is he responsible for?

    1) A thief  has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, 20 head of cows – not bulls, not steers.
     2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.  So, if he sold some of the cows, he has to replace that same number.
     3) He has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered – in this case, the money lost from not having those 2 years of a calf-crop.
     4) He can deduct any useful or necessary expenses – a useful expense improves the item; a necessary expense preserves it.  For example, veterinary bills and pasturage.

    Here’s the new addition:
     5) He has to restore all the natural products of the property.   Lawnmowers don’t have natural products.  But cows do.  What are natural products?  Something produced naturally, by the very nature of the creature.  In the case of cattle, the natural products of beef cows are calves.  Milk cows – milk and calves…. For an apple tree, it’s apples… for a peach tree, it’s the peaches, for a hay field, the hay,  and so forth… So this rustler has to return any calves, heifers, steers or bulls born out of those 20 head since he stole them.  He can’t keep them.  He can’t build up a herd on stolen cattle.  They have to go back; they belong to the original owner. He can’t profit on his rustling.

    Now how does all this apply to the situation with the MMR II vaccine?  If a man in bad faith has to restore all the natural products of the property he has unjust possession of, how can the pharmaceutical companies possibly justify their possession of the natural product of a little baby,  the tissue used to culture the vaccine; the same tissue which was – in an act of supreme injustice – carved out of the flesh of a baby?  It is crystal clear that all those involved are in bad faith, and that restitution must be made; that these tissues not only not be utilized in any sort of experimentation or production at all, but that they be allowed to die.  There are no provisos in the rules for restitution which could excuse a possessor in bad faith from returning his ill-gotten goods, on the condition that he could do all kinds of interesting research with his contraband.  These people are in bad faith, and they are in unjust possession of someone else’s tissues without any  right.

    But, you say, what if the mother agreed to donate the tissue from her aborted child for research?  The parents have no right to donate their aborted child for medical research.  Bodily rights ultimately belong to God and when He creates us He gives us conditional rights over our bodies. Through natural death, God cedes the right over the body to the next of kin (or state if there is no next of kin). When someone is murdered, they violate not only the person’s conditional rights over their body, but they also usurp God’s rights by killing that person. God’s rights are usurped because it is ultimately God’s body to give to whom He pleases. Through natural death it is clear that God is giving the body to someone else because He has taken it from the person who had it. So in abortion, the parents have usurped rights over the child’s body which is not theirs because God did not cede the rights to them; they illicitly took them. Therefore, the parents of an aborted child or the person who murders can not use the body of the person they killed. With abortion and murder, the only way that justice is served is that the body must be buried. This in a sense gives the body back to God and it respects the right of the individual by not doing anything with the body since the person’s will regarding their body can not be ascertained.

    The notion of possession in bad faith – when applied to fetal tissue culture – is only an analogical usage. Why?  Because unlike the situation wherein a rustler could actually purchase the cattle he had stolen, and thus come into legitimate possession of that previously stolen livestock –  no power on Earth can give anyone the right to possess, purchase or preserve tissue taken from a sacrificed baby.   Human tissue obtained in such a manner is not an object of possession, and can never be an object of possession, irregardless if they are producing vaccines for every disease on Earth.  The evil use of fetal tissue for someone’s good cannot justify the situation: it is a screaming violation of justice.  In this case, the circuмstance of “by what aid” is evil, and therefore the whole act of immunizing a child with the MMR II vaccine, as originally considered, is evil:  Bonum ex integra causa, malum ex quocuмque defectu.  (Goodness arises from an integral cause, evil arises from any defect whatsoever.)

    It is immoral to knowingly use any medical products – vaccines, monoclonal antibodies, stem cells, you name it, which are derived from tissue obtained via abortion or embryonic destruction.

    Appendix:

    The rules for the duty of restitution.

    A man may be possessed of the property of another without a just title either through an act of injustice, e.g., fraud, theft, usury, etc., or in good faith, e.g., by purchase, donation, or legacy.  In the former case there is a culpa theologica, i.e., a formal violation of strict justice (iustitia commutativa), in the latter there is merely a material injustice.  These two forms of unjust possession determine the manner in which restitution must be made.

    The general rules for determining the duty of restitution are the following:
    a) “Res clamat domino,” i.e., the rightful owner is entitled to his property, no matter into whose hands it may have fallen.  This rule follows necessarily from the nature of property and ownership.  In applying it, however, due regard must be paid to prescription, etc.
     b) “Res fructificat domino,” i.e., the rightful owner is entitled to the fruits of his property, provided, of course, he has not ceded this right to others.
     c) “Res naturaliter perit domino,” i.e., the right of ownership is bound up with the object owned and ceases with that object.  If the object has perished, but its value continues, the original owner is entitled to the latter, as e.g., when a ton of wheat has been sold and the sum received is still in the hands of the seller.  If a thing has perished not from natural causes, but through the fault of the possessor, the owner is entitled to restitution.
     d) “Nemo ex re aliena locupletari potest,” i.e., no one has a right to enrich himself with the property of another, for the fruits of that property do not belong to the unlawful possessor but to the rightful owner.  

    If the possessor can not reach the owner, he must make restitution to the heirs.

    The fruits of a thing (fructus rei) may be:
    1) Fructus naturales, natural, i.e., derived from the thing itself (beneficio naturae) without the co-operation of man, or with but slight co-operation on his part, for example, fruits of trees, wood in a forest, grass on a meadow, milk, wool, etc.;
     2) Fructus industriales, i.e., fruits of human industry or toil, such as the profits from a sale or purchase, etc.;
     3) Fructus mixti, which are partly the result of industry (ex industria) and partly of the natural or artificial fertility of the property  (ex re ipsa), for instance, grain, wine, etc.;
     4) Fructus civiles, which are derived from an object by means of the civil law, e.g., rent, salary, etc.  The latter category may be reduced to the first (fructus naturales).


    I. One may be in possession of the property of another either in bad faith or in good faith.  A possessor malae fidei is one who knows, or has good reason for believing, that the property he holds belongs to another.  Such a one is bound to restore to the rightful owner whatever the latter has been unjustly deprived of, that is to say:
     a) The stolen property itself, for “res clamat domino.”  If the property no longer exists, its value must be restored.  If it has deteriorated in value whilst under the control of the unlawful possessor, restitution must be made of the value it had when it was taken from its rightful owner.  If its value has increased, it must be restored as it is, with all its fruits, for, “res fructificat domino.”  If the stolen property fluctuated in value after the theft, the owner’s loss bust be made good, and if he intended to sell it when at its highest value, that value must be restored to him.
     b) All the fruits of the property, natural, industrial, and mixed, must be restored to its owner.  But any necessary or useful expensed incurred by the legitimate possessor for the preservation or improvement of the property, as well as such fruits as may be the result of special efforts on his part, may be deducted.
     c) The damage suffered by the owner in consequence of being deprived of what belonged to him (damnum emergens) as well as any profits he may have lost (lucrum cessans), must also be restored to him.


    (From A Handbook of Moral Theology by the Reverend Antony Koch, D.D., adapted and edited by Arthur Preuss.  Volume V.  Man’s Duties to His Fellowmen.  B. Herder Book Company.  St Louis, MO.  1933 pp. 379-383.)
    This might be the strongest argument against the permissibility of using abortive vaccines so far.
    It would seem to preclude recourse to the remote passive material cooperation argument.
    And between Fr. Copenhagen’s argument, and Fr. Wolf, they say there is nothing remote about this cooperation: They say the theft of cells is a continuous present and ongoing sin.
    I think this is what Fr. Scott was also getting at in the 2000 article.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1951
    • Reputation: +518/-147
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #24 on: December 15, 2020, 10:43:39 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • And I'd counter it with 20 down votes.  It's total crap filled with invalid and specious arguments.  When/if I have time I'll address every one of his "points".
    To be clear I upvoted it because it seemed like a sincere attempt to wrestle with a difficult issue, not because I disagreed with it per se.

    Im still kinda mulling over the issue from a philosophical standpoint, and haven't definitively come to a conclusion, but like Pax, I wouldn't take the vaccine regardless.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #25 on: December 15, 2020, 11:01:52 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Are Fr’s Copenhagen and Wolf saying that the remote material cooperation argument is erroneous and inadmissible, because, since one who would take the vaccine implicitly wills to benefit from that ongoing theft/sin, and therefore this cooperation is actually direct and formal (not remote or material)?

    I don’t recall either using the term “formal,” but that seems to be the implication of their argument.

    This is a very strong argument, and I think the burden now shifts to those who are defending the permissibility of receiving abortive vaccines in reliance upon remote material cooperation in evil to explain how/why the ongoing theft of cells is not direct and formal cooperation.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline PAT317

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 913
    • Reputation: +787/-117
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #26 on: December 15, 2020, 11:02:10 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have purchased this book VACCINATION: A Catholic Perspective - Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation and in it Pam refers to two article and one video that discuses the "PRESENT and ONGOING" aspect of it. My work computer does not allow my to get the articles but you should be able to find them here https://cogforlife.org Once there, look for the article by Fr. Wolfe and one from Fr. Copenhagen, also a video by Fr. Ripperger.
    .
    Interview with the author:
    https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=54
    .
    .
    https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=2801
    .
    ^ “The vaccines that are made in aborted fetal cells can’t be completely …all the cell debris can’t be completely purified out of those vaccine preparations, so when you’re getting vaccinated for chicken pox, you’re also receiving proteins & DNA that was originally in those aborted fetal cells. So you’re getting DNA from another human being whose cells have been growing in a laboratory since the 1970s, so who knows what kind of mutations are growing in there.  ‘Cause they had to mutate it to grow in the laboratory in the first place. This DNA is getting injected into your body.”


    https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=2886

    ^ “The chicken pox vaccine has more aborted fetal DNA in it than it has active ingredient for the chicken pox.”  

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12237
    • Reputation: +7742/-2354
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #27 on: December 15, 2020, 11:03:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    how/why the ongoing theft of cells is not direct and formal cooperation.

    Ok, but material cooperation with theft is vastly different than material cooperation with murder.
    .
    Secondly, the 4 Novus Ordo Bishops say that remote material cooperation with slave labor products is allowable.  Why is not remote material cooperation with theft also not allowable?
    .
    Seems there are multiple arguments flying around.

    Offline Clemens Maria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2246
    • Reputation: +1485/-605
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #28 on: December 15, 2020, 11:09:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Are Fr’s Copenhagen and Wolf saying that the remote material cooperation argument is erroneous and inadmissible, because, since one who would take the vaccine implicitly wills to benefit from that ongoing theft/sin, and therefore this cooperation is actually direct and formal (not remote or material)?

    I don’t recall either using the term “formal,” but that seems to be the implication of their argument.

    This is a very strong argument, and I think the burden now shifts to those who are defending the permissibility of receiving abortive vaccines in reliance upon remote material cooperation in evil to explain how/why the ongoing theft of cells is not direct and formal cooperation.
    I don't see where they say that directly but it seems like an obvious logical consequence.  If the cells are equivalent to stolen property then it is immoral to knowingly traffic in them.  You would be implicated in the crime.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #29 on: December 15, 2020, 11:09:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ok, but material cooperation with theft is vastly different than material cooperation with murder.
    .
    Secondly, the 4 Novus Ordo Bishops say that remote material cooperation with slave labor products is allowable.  Why is not remote material cooperation with theft also not allowable?
    .
    Seems there are multiple arguments flying around.

    You missed their whole argument:

    Fr’s Wolf and Copenhagen seem to be saying forget about the remote material, because anyone taking the vaccine receives stolen property (and in willing the benefit, they will the ongoing sin).

    That would make cooperation formal, and jettison the whole remote material line of argument from the conversation.

    The SSPX will need to conquer this argument if they are going to dig their heels in on the remote material argument.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."