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Author Topic: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate  (Read 9280 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
« on: December 14, 2020, 03:36:00 PM »
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  • This post is meant to play "devils advocate" against the most recent statement by the 4 novus ordo bishops, concerning the vaccine and its moral links to abortion.  Their conclusion is that it is immoral to take this vaccine.  I agree with their conclusion (generally), but I disagree with the logic upon which the conclusion is based.  And I disagree that this vaccine is immoral in all cases.  Ultimately, I do wonder if there are exceptions for one to take such a vaccine.
    .
    All of my comments are based on the following article:
    https://www.crisismagazine.com/2020/covid-vaccines-the-ends-cannot-justify-the-means
    .
    This vaccine is highly questionable, from a medical standpoint, and I would personally advice ANYONE and EVERYONE to avoid it, at all costs.  The evidence exists that such a vaccine will cause health problems, infertility or even death.  Humanly speaking, I am against this vaccine 100%.  I am only debating from a philosophical standpoint.  If you don't like such debates, them please ignore this thread.
    .
    Philosophically, I do question the novus ordo logic of these 4 bishops (excepting maybe +Vigano, with his recent and good chastising of Vatican 2 and the new mass, but still, I consider him a convert of sorts...), they do not have the full, 100% orthodox faith, nor do they follow the pure, Traditional Church, so we can certainly question whether they have a proper theological foundation to make complex distinctions, being that the V2 church's seminaries and hierarchy has been infiltrated, subverted and diabolically backwards for 50+ years.
    .
    Problem 1a - Novus Ordo Theology can't be Trusted
    Let us question the novus ordo church's assignment of abortion as "one of mankind's greatest crimes" (5th paragraph of article).  Is abortion a great evil?  Yes, of course.  Is it an intrinsic evil against the natural law?  Yes.  It is one of the 4 sins which "cries to heaven for vengeance"?  Yes, it is.  But does that make it one of the greatest crimes?  Yes in one sense, but no in another sense.
    .
    Abortion, being a type of murder, is an intrinsic (i.e. essentially, always) evil against the natural law.  But supernatural evils (blasphemy, sacrilege, atheism, anti-catholicism) are always greater than natural evils, because the former attacks God directly, while the latter attacks our neighbor.
    .
    Thus, because V2 has ultimately destroyed the Faith, and it has so perverted and desensitized us to the HORRORS of blasphemy and sacrilege which happen in the new mass (which one could argue, is the greatest of religious sins), so I question these 4 novus ordo bishop's theological logic (again, with some exception for +Vigano).  Sins against Faith/religion are FAR, FAR GREATER than abortion, a fact that these 4 did not point out.
    .
    Problem 1b - The V2 Church is so corrupt that the "fight against abortion" is the only moral battleground left.
    The V2 church, for the past 50 years, has been so corrupted that they have allowed, condoned, pardoned, and been lukewarm towards every major area of sin that exists...except abortion.  The V2 church only has one "line in the sand" left and it is abortion.  What other moral/truth do they support 100%?  I can't think of anything.
    .
    All manner of sins against God and religion are allowed, under the lies of "ecuмenism, inter-faith dialogue, (false) charity towards false religions, etc).  All manner of sacrileges and blasphemies are allowed at the new mass, and only if people complain are such abominations said to be "abuses" which will be addressed, but then such abuses never go away, for the last 50 years.
    .
    All manner of sins against impurity (divorce, remarriage, NFP) are allowed/condoned (including ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity).  Thefts, lying, deceits, half-truths, etc are practiced by the vatican daily (vatican bank scandals and lying modernist clerics).
    .
    Abortion is the only and last ounce of morality that has not been ravaged by the evils of V2.  It is no wonder that these 4 bishops claim it is one of mankind's greatest evils.  It is no wonder that they are hyper focused on this vaccine.  But is this vaccine as morally wrong as they claim?  
    .
    Problem 2 - Murder/abortion is 1 of the 4 sins that "cries to heaven for vengeance".  What about the other 3 sins?
    Why does new-rome only defend morality in this 1 area, but does not defend morality in these other 3 areas, with equal effort?  This seems hypocritical.
    .
    1.  Willful murder/abortion.
    2.  Sodomy/ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.
    3.  Oppression of the poor.
    4.  Defrauding workers of their just wages.
    .
    We know why new-rome condones #2...because most of the fake clerics are communist homos.  But where is the outrage over the oppression of the poor and defrauding workers of just wages?  Is new-rome quiet about this because of the political aspects (i.e. capitalism and communism both sin in these areas)?  And especially Communism sins against both at the same time...they oppress the people, make them poor, and then defraud them of just wages by enslaving them for life.  But where is the outrage against these moral injustices?
    .
    Problem 3 - These 4 Bishops make allowances for material cooperation in some sins, but not in abortion.  Why?
    The most problematic paragraph of the article written by the 4 bishops is the following.  I split the paragraph into 3 parts, because each part is a different argument, and which corresponds to the 3 Problems I laid out above:
    .
    The theological principle of material cooperation is certainly valid and may be applied to a whole host of cases (e.g. in paying taxes, the use of products made from slave labor, and so on).
    .
    The first is that these 4 bishops allow for "material cooperation" in the case of "products made from slave labor" but not for abortion.  This is illogical.  
    .
    A.  Slave labor is a combination of 2 sins that cry to heaven for vengeance, whereas abortion is only 1.  Slave labor involves not only oppression of the poor (slavery) but also defrauding them of their just wages.
    .
    B.  Slave labor is an ongoing, current, massively sinful operation.  Abortive cells used in vaccines are (arguably) not ongoing, but happened 30-40 years ago.  Is abortion that much more evil than slave labor?
    .
    However, this principle can hardly be applied to the case of vaccines made from fetal cell lines, because those who knowingly and voluntarily receive such vaccines enter into a kind of concatenation, albeit very remote, with the process of the abortion industry. The crime of abortion is so monstrous that any kind of concatenation with this crime, even a very remote one, is immoral and cannot be accepted under any circuмstances by a Catholic once he has become fully aware of it.
    .
    Do those who knowingly and voluntarily "buy/use products from slave labor" (i.e. communist countries) not enter into a "concatenation" with Communist, anti-catholic, atheistic governments?  Of course they do.  
    .
    If even a "very remote" participation in abortion is immoral and "cannot be accepted under any circuмstances" then slave labor has the same restrictions..and it's worse...slave labor from COMMUNIST countries would have an even GREATER immorality, because these governments, in addition to taking their wages, deprive these slaves of religion and God, which is a FAR greater evil than abortion can ever dream of being.
    .
    One who uses these vaccines must realize that his body is benefitting from the “fruits” (although steps removed through a series of chemical processes) of one of mankind’s greatest crimes.
    .
    I would argue that benefitting from the fruits of communism and slave labor is far worse than abortion, when viewed through the lens of theology and God.  Abortion only seems worse because it involves emotions and children.  But offenses against religion and God are much worse than any evil done to a creature.  Plus, slave labor in an ongoing evil, whereas fetal cells taken from abortion happened long ago.
    .
    Conclusion:  The paragraph following the above, will be edited to prove a point:
    .
    Any link to the abortion process (atheistic Communism), even the most remote and implicit, will cast a shadow over the Church’s duty to bear unwavering witness to the truth that abortion (atheism, God-less Communism and anti-catholicism) must be utterly rejected. The ends cannot justify the means. We are living through one of the worst genocides known to man. Millions upon millions of babies (Billions of men, women and children) across the world have been slaughtered in their mother’s womb (at the hands of Communists), and day after day this hidden genocide continues through the abortion industry, biomedical research and fetal technology, by the ever-growing number of Communistic governments and a push by governments and international bodies to promote such vaccines cheap, slave-labor products as one of their goals. Now is not the time for Catholics to yield; to do so would be grossly irresponsible. The acceptance of these vaccines communistic slave labor products by Catholics, on the grounds that they involve only a “remote, passive and material cooperation” with evil, would play into the hands of the Church’s enemies and weaken her as the last stronghold against the evil of abortion communistic, atheistic governments and the growing threat to religion and Catholicism.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #1 on: December 14, 2020, 03:52:41 PM »
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  • Thank you, Pax. What a tour de force. Multiple solid points. Well done. :cowboy:


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #2 on: December 14, 2020, 04:06:39 PM »
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  • Your “Problem 3” gets to the heart of the matter:

    Ladislaus and I have noted that, though we think Schneider et al. have arrived at the right conclusion, they have failed to persuasively explain why passive remote material cooperation in evil is permissible in some cases, but not others.

    In other words, what are the criteria?

    For my part, I believe the criteria are those four criteria for double effect.

    Ladislaus posits the formal/material analysis is the wrong approach altogether.

    Others suggest only satisfying 1-2 criteria for double effect suffice.

    But the bishops in the declaration don’t cite and apply any moral principles at all: They simply declare that because abortion is so horrendous, no remote cooperation is possible (implying that it is the magnitude of the initial sin which determines whether or not remote cooperation is possible).  But I have never seen such a standard referenced in any of the pre-conciliar manuals.

    The bishops also note that such concatenation contradicts the teaching, in spirit, of John Paul II’s teaching, referencing the CCC (1992) and another docuмent whose title escapes me.  This argument, bundled up with promoting the whole abortion industry, is probably stronger than the foregoing argument.  But once again, it’s essential force comes from emotional, practical/pragmatic, instinctive, and indirect concerns, rather than the application of traditional moral principles, which leave it lacking, and the reader uneasy about buying into it fully.

    If I’m going to die on this hill, all my doubts need to be erased, and my duty clear.

    I need to see a stronger argument.

    This letter came closer than any other so far, but in boxing terminology, would only be a glancing blow: It comes close, but still seems to miss the mark.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #3 on: December 14, 2020, 04:10:25 PM »
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  • Sean, even though we don't agree completely on this, I think that where we do agree is the need to back up opinions WITH TRADITIONAL MORAL THEOLOGY.  Something those Novus Ordo bishops do not do.  

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #4 on: December 14, 2020, 04:14:46 PM »
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  • Sean, even though we don't agree completely on this, I think that where we do agree is the need to back up opinions WITH TRADITIONAL MORAL THEOLOGY.  Something those Novus Ordo bishops do not do.  
    To my mind, it is admittedly a hole they need to fill.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #5 on: December 14, 2020, 04:16:08 PM »
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  • This post is meant to play "devils advocate" against the most recent statement by the 4 novus ordo bishops, concerning the vaccine and its moral links to abortion.  Their conclusion is that it is immoral to take this vaccine.  I agree with their conclusion (generally), but I disagree with the logic upon which the conclusion is based.  And I disagree that this vaccine is immoral in all cases.  Ultimately, I do wonder if there are exceptions for one to take such a vaccine.
    Same here.  Moral theology typically addresses/gives examples of any exceptions/mitigations.  So far none of the clergy have discussed this.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #6 on: December 14, 2020, 04:54:16 PM »
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  • Problem 1b - The V2 Church is so corrupt that the "fight against abortion" is the only moral battleground left.
    The V2 church, for the past 50 years, has been so corrupted that they have allowed, condoned, pardoned, and been lukewarm towards every major area of sin that exists...except abortion.  The V2 church only has one "line in the sand" left and it is abortion.  What other moral/truth do they support 100%?  I can't think of anything.
    .
    All manner of sins against God and religion are allowed, under the lies of "ecuмenism, inter-faith dialogue, (false) charity towards false religions, etc).  All manner of sacrileges and blasphemies are allowed at the new mass, and only if people complain are such abominations said to be "abuses" which will be addressed, but then such abuses never go away, for the last 50 years.
    .
    All manner of sins against impurity (divorce, remarriage, NFP) are allowed/condoned (including ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity).  Thefts, lying, deceits, half-truths, etc are practiced by the vatican daily (vatican bank scandals and lying modernist clerics).
    .
    Abortion is the only and last ounce of morality that has not been ravaged by the evils of V2.  It is no wonder that these 4 bishops claim it is one of mankind's greatest evils.  It is no wonder that they are hyper focused on this vaccine.  But is this vaccine as morally wrong as they claim?  
    .
    And yet these 4 NO bishops remain silent regarding other vaccines that use fetal cells....like the MMR.  

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #7 on: December 14, 2020, 09:08:48 PM »
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  • NO bishops maybe silent regarding vaccines, but just know that New Order supports abortion and has for a long time.  There is a myth, that some, or few bishops are pro-life.  Even Frank Pavone is new order and he knows! that catholic charities and programs of many hide abortion. No matter what they may say out one side of their mouth, the other side is supports abortion.

    I don't care what nice words of any clergy may say in the new order of pro-life they are not!  They think and hope that there are ignorant people that will continue to give the almighty dollar to them as they speak pro-life of which they are not.  And remind yourselves, these so-called priest give no life of sacraments. Their ordinations of the new rite give them nothing to give to you.  No life for your souls, for they can give no sacrament.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #8 on: December 15, 2020, 05:33:09 AM »
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  • At the doctor's office yesterday while chatting with the nurse who is a nice Novus Ordo older lady, she asked me if I was going to take the vaccine, I said no. I was about to continue on when she spoke the same words I was about to say - "I'm a Catholic, I cannot take the vaccine because they use aborted babies to make it".  

    Simple enough, even for a NOer. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #9 on: December 15, 2020, 06:07:56 AM »
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  • This post is meant to play "devils advocate" against the most recent statement by the 4 novus ordo bishops, concerning the vaccine and its moral links to abortion.  Their conclusion is that it is immoral to take this vaccine.  I agree with their conclusion (generally), but I disagree with the logic upon which the conclusion is based.  And I disagree that this vaccine is immoral in all cases.  Ultimately, I do wonder if there are exceptions for one to take such a vaccine.
    .
    All of my comments are based on the following article:
    https://www.crisismagazine.com/2020/covid-vaccines-the-ends-cannot-justify-the-means
    .
    This vaccine is highly questionable, from a medical standpoint, and I would personally advice ANYONE and EVERYONE to avoid it, at all costs.  The evidence exists that such a vaccine will cause health problems, infertility or even death.  Humanly speaking, I am against this vaccine 100%.  I am only debating from a philosophical standpoint.  If you don't like such debates, them please ignore this thread.
    .
    Philosophically, I do question the novus ordo logic of these 4 bishops (excepting maybe +Vigano, with his recent and good chastising of Vatican 2 and the new mass, but still, I consider him a convert of sorts...), they do not have the full, 100% orthodox faith, nor do they follow the pure, Traditional Church, so we can certainly question whether they have a proper theological foundation to make complex distinctions, being that the V2 church's seminaries and hierarchy has been infiltrated, subverted and diabolically backwards for 50+ years.
    .
    Problem 1a - Novus Ordo Theology can't be Trusted
    Let us question the novus ordo church's assignment of abortion as "one of mankind's greatest crimes" (5th paragraph of article).  Is abortion a great evil?  Yes, of course.  Is it an intrinsic evil against the natural law?  Yes.  It is one of the 4 sins which "cries to heaven for vengeance"?  Yes, it is.  But does that make it one of the greatest crimes?  Yes in one sense, but no in another sense.
    .
    Abortion, being a type of murder, is an intrinsic (i.e. essentially, always) evil against the natural law.  But supernatural evils (blasphemy, sacrilege, atheism, anti-catholicism) are always greater than natural evils, because the former attacks God directly, while the latter attacks our neighbor.
    .
    Thus, because V2 has ultimately destroyed the Faith, and it has so perverted and desensitized us to the HORRORS of blasphemy and sacrilege which happen in the new mass (which one could argue, is the greatest of religious sins), so I question these 4 novus ordo bishop's theological logic (again, with some exception for +Vigano).  Sins against Faith/religion are FAR, FAR GREATER than abortion, a fact that these 4 did not point out.
    .
    Problem 1b - The V2 Church is so corrupt that the "fight against abortion" is the only moral battleground left.
    The V2 church, for the past 50 years, has been so corrupted that they have allowed, condoned, pardoned, and been lukewarm towards every major area of sin that exists...except abortion.  The V2 church only has one "line in the sand" left and it is abortion.  What other moral/truth do they support 100%?  I can't think of anything.
    .
    All manner of sins against God and religion are allowed, under the lies of "ecuмenism, inter-faith dialogue, (false) charity towards false religions, etc).  All manner of sacrileges and blasphemies are allowed at the new mass, and only if people complain are such abominations said to be "abuses" which will be addressed, but then such abuses never go away, for the last 50 years.
    .
    All manner of sins against impurity (divorce, remarriage, NFP) are allowed/condoned (including ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity).  Thefts, lying, deceits, half-truths, etc are practiced by the vatican daily (vatican bank scandals and lying modernist clerics).
    .
    Abortion is the only and last ounce of morality that has not been ravaged by the evils of V2.  It is no wonder that these 4 bishops claim it is one of mankind's greatest evils.  It is no wonder that they are hyper focused on this vaccine.  But is this vaccine as morally wrong as they claim?  
    .
    Problem 2 - Murder/abortion is 1 of the 4 sins that "cries to heaven for vengeance".  What about the other 3 sins?
    Why does new-rome only defend morality in this 1 area, but does not defend morality in these other 3 areas, with equal effort?  This seems hypocritical.
    .
    1.  Willful murder/abortion.
    2.  Sodomy/ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.
    3.  Oppression of the poor.
    4.  Defrauding workers of their just wages.
    .
    We know why new-rome condones #2...because most of the fake clerics are communist homos.  But where is the outrage over the oppression of the poor and defrauding workers of just wages?  Is new-rome quiet about this because of the political aspects (i.e. capitalism and communism both sin in these areas)?  And especially Communism sins against both at the same time...they oppress the people, make them poor, and then defraud them of just wages by enslaving them for life.  But where is the outrage against these moral injustices?
    .
    Problem 3 - These 4 Bishops make allowances for material cooperation in some sins, but not in abortion.  Why?
    The most problematic paragraph of the article written by the 4 bishops is the following.  I split the paragraph into 3 parts, because each part is a different argument, and which corresponds to the 3 Problems I laid out above:
    .
    The theological principle of material cooperation is certainly valid and may be applied to a whole host of cases (e.g. in paying taxes, the use of products made from slave labor, and so on).
    .
    The first is that these 4 bishops allow for "material cooperation" in the case of "products made from slave labor" but not for abortion.  This is illogical.  
    .
    A.  Slave labor is a combination of 2 sins that cry to heaven for vengeance, whereas abortion is only 1.  Slave labor involves not only oppression of the poor (slavery) but also defrauding them of their just wages.
    .
    B.  Slave labor is an ongoing, current, massively sinful operation.  Abortive cells used in vaccines are (arguably) not ongoing, but happened 30-40 years ago.  Is abortion that much more evil than slave labor?
    .
    However, this principle can hardly be applied to the case of vaccines made from fetal cell lines, because those who knowingly and voluntarily receive such vaccines enter into a kind of concatenation, albeit very remote, with the process of the abortion industry. The crime of abortion is so monstrous that any kind of concatenation with this crime, even a very remote one, is immoral and cannot be accepted under any circuмstances by a Catholic once he has become fully aware of it.
    .
    Do those who knowingly and voluntarily "buy/use products from slave labor" (i.e. communist countries) not enter into a "concatenation" with Communist, anti-catholic, atheistic governments?  Of course they do.  
    .
    If even a "very remote" participation in abortion is immoral and "cannot be accepted under any circuмstances" then slave labor has the same restrictions..and it's worse...slave labor from COMMUNIST countries would have an even GREATER immorality, because these governments, in addition to taking their wages, deprive these slaves of religion and God, which is a FAR greater evil than abortion can ever dream of being.
    .
    One who uses these vaccines must realize that his body is benefitting from the “fruits” (although steps removed through a series of chemical processes) of one of mankind’s greatest crimes.
    .
    I would argue that benefitting from the fruits of communism and slave labor is far worse than abortion, when viewed through the lens of theology and God.  Abortion only seems worse because it involves emotions and children.  But offenses against religion and God are much worse than any evil done to a creature.  Plus, slave labor in an ongoing evil, whereas fetal cells taken from abortion happened long ago.
    .
    Conclusion:  The paragraph following the above, will be edited to prove a point:
    .
    Any link to the abortion process (atheistic Communism), even the most remote and implicit, will cast a shadow over the Church’s duty to bear unwavering witness to the truth that abortion (atheism, God-less Communism and anti-catholicism) must be utterly rejected. The ends cannot justify the means. We are living through one of the worst genocides known to man. Millions upon millions of babies (Billions of men, women and children) across the world have been slaughtered in their mother’s womb (at the hands of Communists), and day after day this hidden genocide continues through the abortion industry, biomedical research and fetal technology, by the ever-growing number of Communistic governments and a push by governments and international bodies to promote such vaccines cheap, slave-labor products as one of their goals. Now is not the time for Catholics to yield; to do so would be grossly irresponsible. The acceptance of these vaccines communistic slave labor products by Catholics, on the grounds that they involve only a “remote, passive and material cooperation” with evil, would play into the hands of the Church’s enemies and weaken her as the last stronghold against the evil of abortion communistic, atheistic governments and the growing threat to religion and Catholicism.
    I wish I could give this post 10 up votes! Excellent!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #10 on: December 15, 2020, 08:19:04 AM »
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  • I wish I could give this post 10 up votes! Excellent!

    And I'd counter it with 20 down votes.  It's total crap filled with invalid and specious arguments.  When/if I have time I'll address every one of his "points".


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #11 on: December 15, 2020, 08:23:34 AM »
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  • Ladislaus posits the formal/material analysis is the wrong approach altogether.

    That's the one issue I have, the other being that the crime being participated in is not REMOTE and PAST, but rather PRESENT and ONGOING.  This is the major contribution from the NO bishops here, even though they did not properly articulate it.

    In taking the vaccine, we are not merely participating in an isolated act of abortion that happened 60 years ago.  We're participating in the ongoing and present crime of using fetal cell tissue in vaccines.  We're participating in the entire abortion industry.  We are participating in something that's been wrongly and falsely legalized by our society and are therefore condoning this "legalization".

    And the other implied point here is that, even to justify a "remote material" participation, there must be proportionately grave reason.  These bishops assert that abortion is so grave that the proportionately grave reason to justify even a remote material participation doesn't exist.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #12 on: December 15, 2020, 08:26:38 AM »
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  • Problem 1a - Novus Ordo Theology can't be Trusted
    Let us question the novus ordo church's assignment of abortion as "one of mankind's greatest crimes" (5th paragraph of article).  Is abortion a great evil?  Yes, of course.  Is it an intrinsic evil against the natural law?  Yes.  It is one of the 4 sins which "cries to heaven for vengeance"?  Yes, it is.  But does that make it one of the greatest crimes?  Yes in one sense, but no in another sense.
    .
    Abortion, being a type of murder, is an intrinsic (i.e. essentially, always) evil against the natural law.  But supernatural evils (blasphemy, sacrilege, atheism, anti-catholicism) are always greater than natural evils, because the former attacks God directly, while the latter attacks our neighbor.
    .
    Thus, because V2 has ultimately destroyed the Faith, and it has so perverted and desensitized us to the HORRORS of blasphemy and sacrilege which happen in the new mass (which one could argue, is the greatest of religious sins), so I question these 4 novus ordo bishop's theological logic (again, with some exception for +Vigano).  Sins against Faith/religion are FAR, FAR GREATER than abortion, a fact that these 4 did not point out.
    .

    This is absurd.  By your own citation, they referred to abortion as "ONE OF" mankind's greatest crimes, and you go on to attack them as if they were asserting that it is THE single greatest crime of mankind.  They said nothing of the sort, so your argument is calumny.

    Really the question is whether it is grave ENOUGH for their point to be valid.

    Your quibbling about whether there exist greater crimes is absurd and irrelevant.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #13 on: December 15, 2020, 08:26:58 AM »
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  • You did well to style yourself the "Devil's" advocate, for that's precisely what you are on this issue.

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
    « Reply #14 on: December 15, 2020, 08:36:29 AM »
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  • That's the one issue I have, the other being that the crime being participated in is not REMOTE and PAST, but rather PRESENT and ONGOING.  This is the major contribution from the NO bishops here, even though they did not properly articulate it.

    In taking the vaccine, we are not merely participating in an isolated act of abortion that happened 60 years ago.  We're participating in the ongoing and present crime of using fetal cell tissue in vaccines.  We're participating in the entire abortion industry.  We are participating in something that's been wrongly and falsely legalized by our society and are therefore condoning this "legalization".

    And the other implied point here is that, even to justify a "remote material" participation, there must be proportionately grave reason.  These bishops assert that abortion is so grave that the proportionately grave reason to justify even a remote material participation doesn't exist.
    I have purchased this book VACCINATION: A Catholic Perspective - Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation and in it Pam refers to two article and one video that discuses the "PRESENT and ONGOING" aspect of it. My work computer does not allow my to get the articles but you should be able to find them here https://cogforlife.org Once there, look for the article by Fr. Wolfe and one from Fr. Copenhagen, also a video by Fr. Ripperger.