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Author Topic: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate  (Read 12015 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2020, 08:19:04 AM »
I wish I could give this post 10 up votes! Excellent!

And I'd counter it with 20 down votes.  It's total crap filled with invalid and specious arguments.  When/if I have time I'll address every one of his "points".

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2020, 08:23:34 AM »
Ladislaus posits the formal/material analysis is the wrong approach altogether.

That's the one issue I have, the other being that the crime being participated in is not REMOTE and PAST, but rather PRESENT and ONGOING.  This is the major contribution from the NO bishops here, even though they did not properly articulate it.

In taking the vaccine, we are not merely participating in an isolated act of abortion that happened 60 years ago.  We're participating in the ongoing and present crime of using fetal cell tissue in vaccines.  We're participating in the entire abortion industry.  We are participating in something that's been wrongly and falsely legalized by our society and are therefore condoning this "legalization".

And the other implied point here is that, even to justify a "remote material" participation, there must be proportionately grave reason.  These bishops assert that abortion is so grave that the proportionately grave reason to justify even a remote material participation doesn't exist.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2020, 08:26:38 AM »
Problem 1a - Novus Ordo Theology can't be Trusted
Let us question the novus ordo church's assignment of abortion as "one of mankind's greatest crimes" (5th paragraph of article).  Is abortion a great evil?  Yes, of course.  Is it an intrinsic evil against the natural law?  Yes.  It is one of the 4 sins which "cries to heaven for vengeance"?  Yes, it is.  But does that make it one of the greatest crimes?  Yes in one sense, but no in another sense.
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Abortion, being a type of murder, is an intrinsic (i.e. essentially, always) evil against the natural law.  But supernatural evils (blasphemy, sacrilege, atheism, anti-catholicism) are always greater than natural evils, because the former attacks God directly, while the latter attacks our neighbor.
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Thus, because V2 has ultimately destroyed the Faith, and it has so perverted and desensitized us to the HORRORS of blasphemy and sacrilege which happen in the new mass (which one could argue, is the greatest of religious sins), so I question these 4 novus ordo bishop's theological logic (again, with some exception for +Vigano).  Sins against Faith/religion are FAR, FAR GREATER than abortion, a fact that these 4 did not point out.
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This is absurd.  By your own citation, they referred to abortion as "ONE OF" mankind's greatest crimes, and you go on to attack them as if they were asserting that it is THE single greatest crime of mankind.  They said nothing of the sort, so your argument is calumny.

Really the question is whether it is grave ENOUGH for their point to be valid.

Your quibbling about whether there exist greater crimes is absurd and irrelevant.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2020, 08:26:58 AM »
You did well to style yourself the "Devil's" advocate, for that's precisely what you are on this issue.

Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2020, 08:36:29 AM »
That's the one issue I have, the other being that the crime being participated in is not REMOTE and PAST, but rather PRESENT and ONGOING.  This is the major contribution from the NO bishops here, even though they did not properly articulate it.

In taking the vaccine, we are not merely participating in an isolated act of abortion that happened 60 years ago.  We're participating in the ongoing and present crime of using fetal cell tissue in vaccines.  We're participating in the entire abortion industry.  We are participating in something that's been wrongly and falsely legalized by our society and are therefore condoning this "legalization".

And the other implied point here is that, even to justify a "remote material" participation, there must be proportionately grave reason.  These bishops assert that abortion is so grave that the proportionately grave reason to justify even a remote material participation doesn't exist.
I have purchased this book VACCINATION: A Catholic Perspective - Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation and in it Pam refers to two article and one video that discuses the "PRESENT and ONGOING" aspect of it. My work computer does not allow my to get the articles but you should be able to find them here https://cogforlife.org Once there, look for the article by Fr. Wolfe and one from Fr. Copenhagen, also a video by Fr. Ripperger.