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Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Pax Vobis on December 14, 2020, 03:36:00 PM

Title: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Pax Vobis on December 14, 2020, 03:36:00 PM
This post is meant to play "devils advocate" against the most recent statement by the 4 novus ordo bishops, concerning the vaccine and its moral links to abortion.  Their conclusion is that it is immoral to take this vaccine.  I agree with their conclusion (generally), but I disagree with the logic upon which the conclusion is based.  And I disagree that this vaccine is immoral in all cases.  Ultimately, I do wonder if there are exceptions for one to take such a vaccine.
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All of my comments are based on the following article:
https://www.crisismagazine.com/2020/covid-vaccines-the-ends-cannot-justify-the-means
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This vaccine is highly questionable, from a medical standpoint, and I would personally advice ANYONE and EVERYONE to avoid it, at all costs.  The evidence exists that such a vaccine will cause health problems, infertility or even death.  Humanly speaking, I am against this vaccine 100%.  I am only debating from a philosophical standpoint.  If you don't like such debates, them please ignore this thread.
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Philosophically, I do question the novus ordo logic of these 4 bishops (excepting maybe +Vigano, with his recent and good chastising of Vatican 2 and the new mass, but still, I consider him a convert of sorts...), they do not have the full, 100% orthodox faith, nor do they follow the pure, Traditional Church, so we can certainly question whether they have a proper theological foundation to make complex distinctions, being that the V2 church's seminaries and hierarchy has been infiltrated, subverted and diabolically backwards for 50+ years.
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Problem 1a - Novus Ordo Theology can't be Trusted
Let us question the novus ordo church's assignment of abortion as "one of mankind's greatest crimes" (5th paragraph of article).  Is abortion a great evil?  Yes, of course.  Is it an intrinsic evil against the natural law?  Yes.  It is one of the 4 sins which "cries to heaven for vengeance"?  Yes, it is.  But does that make it one of the greatest crimes?  Yes in one sense, but no in another sense.
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Abortion, being a type of murder, is an intrinsic (i.e. essentially, always) evil against the natural law.  But supernatural evils (blasphemy, sacrilege, atheism, anti-catholicism) are always greater than natural evils, because the former attacks God directly, while the latter attacks our neighbor.
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Thus, because V2 has ultimately destroyed the Faith, and it has so perverted and desensitized us to the HORRORS of blasphemy and sacrilege which happen in the new mass (which one could argue, is the greatest of religious sins), so I question these 4 novus ordo bishop's theological logic (again, with some exception for +Vigano).  Sins against Faith/religion are FAR, FAR GREATER than abortion, a fact that these 4 did not point out.
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Problem 1b - The V2 Church is so corrupt that the "fight against abortion" is the only moral battleground left.
The V2 church, for the past 50 years, has been so corrupted that they have allowed, condoned, pardoned, and been lukewarm towards every major area of sin that exists...except abortion.  The V2 church only has one "line in the sand" left and it is abortion.  What other moral/truth do they support 100%?  I can't think of anything.
.
All manner of sins against God and religion are allowed, under the lies of "ecuмenism, inter-faith dialogue, (false) charity towards false religions, etc).  All manner of sacrileges and blasphemies are allowed at the new mass, and only if people complain are such abominations said to be "abuses" which will be addressed, but then such abuses never go away, for the last 50 years.
.
All manner of sins against impurity (divorce, remarriage, NFP) are allowed/condoned (including ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity).  Thefts, lying, deceits, half-truths, etc are practiced by the vatican daily (vatican bank scandals and lying modernist clerics).
.
Abortion is the only and last ounce of morality that has not been ravaged by the evils of V2.  It is no wonder that these 4 bishops claim it is one of mankind's greatest evils.  It is no wonder that they are hyper focused on this vaccine.  But is this vaccine as morally wrong as they claim?  
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Problem 2 - Murder/abortion is 1 of the 4 sins that "cries to heaven for vengeance".  What about the other 3 sins?
Why does new-rome only defend morality in this 1 area, but does not defend morality in these other 3 areas, with equal effort?  This seems hypocritical.
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1.  Willful murder/abortion.
2.  Sodomy/ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.
3.  Oppression of the poor.
4.  Defrauding workers of their just wages.
.
We know why new-rome condones #2...because most of the fake clerics are communist homos.  But where is the outrage over the oppression of the poor and defrauding workers of just wages?  Is new-rome quiet about this because of the political aspects (i.e. capitalism and communism both sin in these areas)?  And especially Communism sins against both at the same time...they oppress the people, make them poor, and then defraud them of just wages by enslaving them for life.  But where is the outrage against these moral injustices?
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Problem 3 - These 4 Bishops make allowances for material cooperation in some sins, but not in abortion.  Why?
The most problematic paragraph of the article written by the 4 bishops is the following.  I split the paragraph into 3 parts, because each part is a different argument, and which corresponds to the 3 Problems I laid out above:
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The theological principle of material cooperation is certainly valid and may be applied to a whole host of cases (e.g. in paying taxes, the use of products made from slave labor, and so on).
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The first is that these 4 bishops allow for "material cooperation" in the case of "products made from slave labor" but not for abortion.  This is illogical.  
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A.  Slave labor is a combination of 2 sins that cry to heaven for vengeance, whereas abortion is only 1.  Slave labor involves not only oppression of the poor (slavery) but also defrauding them of their just wages.
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B.  Slave labor is an ongoing, current, massively sinful operation.  Abortive cells used in vaccines are (arguably) not ongoing, but happened 30-40 years ago.  Is abortion that much more evil than slave labor?
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However, this principle can hardly be applied to the case of vaccines made from fetal cell lines, because those who knowingly and voluntarily receive such vaccines enter into a kind of concatenation, albeit very remote, with the process of the abortion industry. The crime of abortion is so monstrous that any kind of concatenation with this crime, even a very remote one, is immoral and cannot be accepted under any circuмstances by a Catholic once he has become fully aware of it.
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Do those who knowingly and voluntarily "buy/use products from slave labor" (i.e. communist countries) not enter into a "concatenation" with Communist, anti-catholic, atheistic governments?  Of course they do.  
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If even a "very remote" participation in abortion is immoral and "cannot be accepted under any circuмstances" then slave labor has the same restrictions..and it's worse...slave labor from COMMUNIST countries would have an even GREATER immorality, because these governments, in addition to taking their wages, deprive these slaves of religion and God, which is a FAR greater evil than abortion can ever dream of being.
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One who uses these vaccines must realize that his body is benefitting from the “fruits” (although steps removed through a series of chemical processes) of one of mankind’s greatest crimes.
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I would argue that benefitting from the fruits of communism and slave labor is far worse than abortion, when viewed through the lens of theology and God.  Abortion only seems worse because it involves emotions and children.  But offenses against religion and God are much worse than any evil done to a creature.  Plus, slave labor in an ongoing evil, whereas fetal cells taken from abortion happened long ago.
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Conclusion:  The paragraph following the above, will be edited to prove a point:
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Any link to the abortion process (atheistic Communism), even the most remote and implicit, will cast a shadow over the Church’s duty to bear unwavering witness to the truth that abortion (atheism, God-less Communism and anti-catholicism) must be utterly rejected. The ends cannot justify the means. We are living through one of the worst genocides known to man. Millions upon millions of babies (Billions of men, women and children) across the world have been slaughtered in their mother’s womb (at the hands of Communists), and day after day this hidden genocide continues through the abortion industry, biomedical research and fetal technology, by the ever-growing number of Communistic governments and a push by governments and international bodies to promote such vaccines cheap, slave-labor products as one of their goals. Now is not the time for Catholics to yield; to do so would be grossly irresponsible. The acceptance of these vaccines communistic slave labor products by Catholics, on the grounds that they involve only a “remote, passive and material cooperation” with evil, would play into the hands of the Church’s enemies and weaken her as the last stronghold against the evil of abortion communistic, atheistic governments and the growing threat to religion and Catholicism.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Yeti on December 14, 2020, 03:52:41 PM
Thank you, Pax. What a tour de force. Multiple solid points. Well done. :cowboy:
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 14, 2020, 04:06:39 PM
Your “Problem 3” gets to the heart of the matter:

Ladislaus and I have noted that, though we think Schneider et al. have arrived at the right conclusion, they have failed to persuasively explain why passive remote material cooperation in evil is permissible in some cases, but not others.

In other words, what are the criteria?

For my part, I believe the criteria are those four criteria for double effect.

Ladislaus posits the formal/material analysis is the wrong approach altogether.

Others suggest only satisfying 1-2 criteria for double effect suffice.

But the bishops in the declaration don’t cite and apply any moral principles at all: They simply declare that because abortion is so horrendous, no remote cooperation is possible (implying that it is the magnitude of the initial sin which determines whether or not remote cooperation is possible).  But I have never seen such a standard referenced in any of the pre-conciliar manuals.

The bishops also note that such concatenation contradicts the teaching, in spirit, of John Paul II’s teaching, referencing the CCC (1992) and another docuмent whose title escapes me.  This argument, bundled up with promoting the whole abortion industry, is probably stronger than the foregoing argument.  But once again, it’s essential force comes from emotional, practical/pragmatic, instinctive, and indirect concerns, rather than the application of traditional moral principles, which leave it lacking, and the reader uneasy about buying into it fully.

If I’m going to die on this hill, all my doubts need to be erased, and my duty clear.

I need to see a stronger argument.

This letter came closer than any other so far, but in boxing terminology, would only be a glancing blow: It comes close, but still seems to miss the mark.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: 2Vermont on December 14, 2020, 04:10:25 PM
Sean, even though we don't agree completely on this, I think that where we do agree is the need to back up opinions WITH TRADITIONAL MORAL THEOLOGY.  Something those Novus Ordo bishops do not do.  
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 14, 2020, 04:14:46 PM
Sean, even though we don't agree completely on this, I think that where we do agree is the need to back up opinions WITH TRADITIONAL MORAL THEOLOGY.  Something those Novus Ordo bishops do not do.  
To my mind, it is admittedly a hole they need to fill.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: 2Vermont on December 14, 2020, 04:16:08 PM
This post is meant to play "devils advocate" against the most recent statement by the 4 novus ordo bishops, concerning the vaccine and its moral links to abortion.  Their conclusion is that it is immoral to take this vaccine.  I agree with their conclusion (generally), but I disagree with the logic upon which the conclusion is based.  And I disagree that this vaccine is immoral in all cases.  Ultimately, I do wonder if there are exceptions for one to take such a vaccine.
Same here.  Moral theology typically addresses/gives examples of any exceptions/mitigations.  So far none of the clergy have discussed this.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: 2Vermont on December 14, 2020, 04:54:16 PM


Problem 1b - The V2 Church is so corrupt that the "fight against abortion" is the only moral battleground left.
The V2 church, for the past 50 years, has been so corrupted that they have allowed, condoned, pardoned, and been lukewarm towards every major area of sin that exists...except abortion.  The V2 church only has one "line in the sand" left and it is abortion.  What other moral/truth do they support 100%?  I can't think of anything.
.
All manner of sins against God and religion are allowed, under the lies of "ecuмenism, inter-faith dialogue, (false) charity towards false religions, etc).  All manner of sacrileges and blasphemies are allowed at the new mass, and only if people complain are such abominations said to be "abuses" which will be addressed, but then such abuses never go away, for the last 50 years.
.
All manner of sins against impurity (divorce, remarriage, NFP) are allowed/condoned (including ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity).  Thefts, lying, deceits, half-truths, etc are practiced by the vatican daily (vatican bank scandals and lying modernist clerics).
.
Abortion is the only and last ounce of morality that has not been ravaged by the evils of V2.  It is no wonder that these 4 bishops claim it is one of mankind's greatest evils.  It is no wonder that they are hyper focused on this vaccine.  But is this vaccine as morally wrong as they claim?  
.
And yet these 4 NO bishops remain silent regarding other vaccines that use fetal cells....like the MMR.  
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: songbird on December 14, 2020, 09:08:48 PM
NO bishops maybe silent regarding vaccines, but just know that New Order supports abortion and has for a long time.  There is a myth, that some, or few bishops are pro-life.  Even Frank Pavone is new order and he knows! that catholic charities and programs of many hide abortion. No matter what they may say out one side of their mouth, the other side is supports abortion.

I don't care what nice words of any clergy may say in the new order of pro-life they are not!  They think and hope that there are ignorant people that will continue to give the almighty dollar to them as they speak pro-life of which they are not.  And remind yourselves, these so-called priest give no life of sacraments. Their ordinations of the new rite give them nothing to give to you.  No life for your souls, for they can give no sacrament.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Stubborn on December 15, 2020, 05:33:09 AM
At the doctor's office yesterday while chatting with the nurse who is a nice Novus Ordo older lady, she asked me if I was going to take the vaccine, I said no. I was about to continue on when she spoke the same words I was about to say - "I'm a Catholic, I cannot take the vaccine because they use aborted babies to make it".  

Simple enough, even for a NOer. 
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on December 15, 2020, 06:07:56 AM
This post is meant to play "devils advocate" against the most recent statement by the 4 novus ordo bishops, concerning the vaccine and its moral links to abortion.  Their conclusion is that it is immoral to take this vaccine.  I agree with their conclusion (generally), but I disagree with the logic upon which the conclusion is based.  And I disagree that this vaccine is immoral in all cases.  Ultimately, I do wonder if there are exceptions for one to take such a vaccine.
.
All of my comments are based on the following article:
https://www.crisismagazine.com/2020/covid-vaccines-the-ends-cannot-justify-the-means
.
This vaccine is highly questionable, from a medical standpoint, and I would personally advice ANYONE and EVERYONE to avoid it, at all costs.  The evidence exists that such a vaccine will cause health problems, infertility or even death.  Humanly speaking, I am against this vaccine 100%.  I am only debating from a philosophical standpoint.  If you don't like such debates, them please ignore this thread.
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Philosophically, I do question the novus ordo logic of these 4 bishops (excepting maybe +Vigano, with his recent and good chastising of Vatican 2 and the new mass, but still, I consider him a convert of sorts...), they do not have the full, 100% orthodox faith, nor do they follow the pure, Traditional Church, so we can certainly question whether they have a proper theological foundation to make complex distinctions, being that the V2 church's seminaries and hierarchy has been infiltrated, subverted and diabolically backwards for 50+ years.
.
Problem 1a - Novus Ordo Theology can't be Trusted
Let us question the novus ordo church's assignment of abortion as "one of mankind's greatest crimes" (5th paragraph of article).  Is abortion a great evil?  Yes, of course.  Is it an intrinsic evil against the natural law?  Yes.  It is one of the 4 sins which "cries to heaven for vengeance"?  Yes, it is.  But does that make it one of the greatest crimes?  Yes in one sense, but no in another sense.
.
Abortion, being a type of murder, is an intrinsic (i.e. essentially, always) evil against the natural law.  But supernatural evils (blasphemy, sacrilege, atheism, anti-catholicism) are always greater than natural evils, because the former attacks God directly, while the latter attacks our neighbor.
.
Thus, because V2 has ultimately destroyed the Faith, and it has so perverted and desensitized us to the HORRORS of blasphemy and sacrilege which happen in the new mass (which one could argue, is the greatest of religious sins), so I question these 4 novus ordo bishop's theological logic (again, with some exception for +Vigano).  Sins against Faith/religion are FAR, FAR GREATER than abortion, a fact that these 4 did not point out.
.
Problem 1b - The V2 Church is so corrupt that the "fight against abortion" is the only moral battleground left.
The V2 church, for the past 50 years, has been so corrupted that they have allowed, condoned, pardoned, and been lukewarm towards every major area of sin that exists...except abortion.  The V2 church only has one "line in the sand" left and it is abortion.  What other moral/truth do they support 100%?  I can't think of anything.
.
All manner of sins against God and religion are allowed, under the lies of "ecuмenism, inter-faith dialogue, (false) charity towards false religions, etc).  All manner of sacrileges and blasphemies are allowed at the new mass, and only if people complain are such abominations said to be "abuses" which will be addressed, but then such abuses never go away, for the last 50 years.
.
All manner of sins against impurity (divorce, remarriage, NFP) are allowed/condoned (including ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity).  Thefts, lying, deceits, half-truths, etc are practiced by the vatican daily (vatican bank scandals and lying modernist clerics).
.
Abortion is the only and last ounce of morality that has not been ravaged by the evils of V2.  It is no wonder that these 4 bishops claim it is one of mankind's greatest evils.  It is no wonder that they are hyper focused on this vaccine.  But is this vaccine as morally wrong as they claim?  
.
Problem 2 - Murder/abortion is 1 of the 4 sins that "cries to heaven for vengeance".  What about the other 3 sins?
Why does new-rome only defend morality in this 1 area, but does not defend morality in these other 3 areas, with equal effort?  This seems hypocritical.
.
1.  Willful murder/abortion.
2.  Sodomy/ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.
3.  Oppression of the poor.
4.  Defrauding workers of their just wages.
.
We know why new-rome condones #2...because most of the fake clerics are communist homos.  But where is the outrage over the oppression of the poor and defrauding workers of just wages?  Is new-rome quiet about this because of the political aspects (i.e. capitalism and communism both sin in these areas)?  And especially Communism sins against both at the same time...they oppress the people, make them poor, and then defraud them of just wages by enslaving them for life.  But where is the outrage against these moral injustices?
.
Problem 3 - These 4 Bishops make allowances for material cooperation in some sins, but not in abortion.  Why?
The most problematic paragraph of the article written by the 4 bishops is the following.  I split the paragraph into 3 parts, because each part is a different argument, and which corresponds to the 3 Problems I laid out above:
.
The theological principle of material cooperation is certainly valid and may be applied to a whole host of cases (e.g. in paying taxes, the use of products made from slave labor, and so on).
.
The first is that these 4 bishops allow for "material cooperation" in the case of "products made from slave labor" but not for abortion.  This is illogical.  
.
A.  Slave labor is a combination of 2 sins that cry to heaven for vengeance, whereas abortion is only 1.  Slave labor involves not only oppression of the poor (slavery) but also defrauding them of their just wages.
.
B.  Slave labor is an ongoing, current, massively sinful operation.  Abortive cells used in vaccines are (arguably) not ongoing, but happened 30-40 years ago.  Is abortion that much more evil than slave labor?
.
However, this principle can hardly be applied to the case of vaccines made from fetal cell lines, because those who knowingly and voluntarily receive such vaccines enter into a kind of concatenation, albeit very remote, with the process of the abortion industry. The crime of abortion is so monstrous that any kind of concatenation with this crime, even a very remote one, is immoral and cannot be accepted under any circuмstances by a Catholic once he has become fully aware of it.
.
Do those who knowingly and voluntarily "buy/use products from slave labor" (i.e. communist countries) not enter into a "concatenation" with Communist, anti-catholic, atheistic governments?  Of course they do.  
.
If even a "very remote" participation in abortion is immoral and "cannot be accepted under any circuмstances" then slave labor has the same restrictions..and it's worse...slave labor from COMMUNIST countries would have an even GREATER immorality, because these governments, in addition to taking their wages, deprive these slaves of religion and God, which is a FAR greater evil than abortion can ever dream of being.
.
One who uses these vaccines must realize that his body is benefitting from the “fruits” (although steps removed through a series of chemical processes) of one of mankind’s greatest crimes.
.
I would argue that benefitting from the fruits of communism and slave labor is far worse than abortion, when viewed through the lens of theology and God.  Abortion only seems worse because it involves emotions and children.  But offenses against religion and God are much worse than any evil done to a creature.  Plus, slave labor in an ongoing evil, whereas fetal cells taken from abortion happened long ago.
.
Conclusion:  The paragraph following the above, will be edited to prove a point:
.
Any link to the abortion process (atheistic Communism), even the most remote and implicit, will cast a shadow over the Church’s duty to bear unwavering witness to the truth that abortion (atheism, God-less Communism and anti-catholicism) must be utterly rejected. The ends cannot justify the means. We are living through one of the worst genocides known to man. Millions upon millions of babies (Billions of men, women and children) across the world have been slaughtered in their mother’s womb (at the hands of Communists), and day after day this hidden genocide continues through the abortion industry, biomedical research and fetal technology, by the ever-growing number of Communistic governments and a push by governments and international bodies to promote such vaccines cheap, slave-labor products as one of their goals. Now is not the time for Catholics to yield; to do so would be grossly irresponsible. The acceptance of these vaccines communistic slave labor products by Catholics, on the grounds that they involve only a “remote, passive and material cooperation” with evil, would play into the hands of the Church’s enemies and weaken her as the last stronghold against the evil of abortion communistic, atheistic governments and the growing threat to religion and Catholicism.
I wish I could give this post 10 up votes! Excellent!
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Ladislaus on December 15, 2020, 08:19:04 AM
I wish I could give this post 10 up votes! Excellent!

And I'd counter it with 20 down votes.  It's total crap filled with invalid and specious arguments.  When/if I have time I'll address every one of his "points".
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Ladislaus on December 15, 2020, 08:23:34 AM
Ladislaus posits the formal/material analysis is the wrong approach altogether.

That's the one issue I have, the other being that the crime being participated in is not REMOTE and PAST, but rather PRESENT and ONGOING.  This is the major contribution from the NO bishops here, even though they did not properly articulate it.

In taking the vaccine, we are not merely participating in an isolated act of abortion that happened 60 years ago.  We're participating in the ongoing and present crime of using fetal cell tissue in vaccines.  We're participating in the entire abortion industry.  We are participating in something that's been wrongly and falsely legalized by our society and are therefore condoning this "legalization".

And the other implied point here is that, even to justify a "remote material" participation, there must be proportionately grave reason.  These bishops assert that abortion is so grave that the proportionately grave reason to justify even a remote material participation doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Ladislaus on December 15, 2020, 08:26:38 AM
Problem 1a - Novus Ordo Theology can't be Trusted
Let us question the novus ordo church's assignment of abortion as "one of mankind's greatest crimes" (5th paragraph of article).  Is abortion a great evil?  Yes, of course.  Is it an intrinsic evil against the natural law?  Yes.  It is one of the 4 sins which "cries to heaven for vengeance"?  Yes, it is.  But does that make it one of the greatest crimes?  Yes in one sense, but no in another sense.
.
Abortion, being a type of murder, is an intrinsic (i.e. essentially, always) evil against the natural law.  But supernatural evils (blasphemy, sacrilege, atheism, anti-catholicism) are always greater than natural evils, because the former attacks God directly, while the latter attacks our neighbor.
.
Thus, because V2 has ultimately destroyed the Faith, and it has so perverted and desensitized us to the HORRORS of blasphemy and sacrilege which happen in the new mass (which one could argue, is the greatest of religious sins), so I question these 4 novus ordo bishop's theological logic (again, with some exception for +Vigano).  Sins against Faith/religion are FAR, FAR GREATER than abortion, a fact that these 4 did not point out.
.

This is absurd.  By your own citation, they referred to abortion as "ONE OF" mankind's greatest crimes, and you go on to attack them as if they were asserting that it is THE single greatest crime of mankind.  They said nothing of the sort, so your argument is calumny.

Really the question is whether it is grave ENOUGH for their point to be valid.

Your quibbling about whether there exist greater crimes is absurd and irrelevant.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Ladislaus on December 15, 2020, 08:26:58 AM
You did well to style yourself the "Devil's" advocate, for that's precisely what you are on this issue.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Mr G on December 15, 2020, 08:36:29 AM
That's the one issue I have, the other being that the crime being participated in is not REMOTE and PAST, but rather PRESENT and ONGOING.  This is the major contribution from the NO bishops here, even though they did not properly articulate it.

In taking the vaccine, we are not merely participating in an isolated act of abortion that happened 60 years ago.  We're participating in the ongoing and present crime of using fetal cell tissue in vaccines.  We're participating in the entire abortion industry.  We are participating in something that's been wrongly and falsely legalized by our society and are therefore condoning this "legalization".

And the other implied point here is that, even to justify a "remote material" participation, there must be proportionately grave reason.  These bishops assert that abortion is so grave that the proportionately grave reason to justify even a remote material participation doesn't exist.
I have purchased this book VACCINATION: A Catholic Perspective - Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation (https://www.kolbecenter.org/product/vaccination-a-catholic-perspective/) and in it Pam refers to two article and one video that discuses the "PRESENT and ONGOING" aspect of it. My work computer does not allow my to get the articles but you should be able to find them here https://cogforlife.org Once there, look for the article by Fr. Wolfe and one from Fr. Copenhagen, also a video by Fr. Ripperger.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Pax Vobis on December 15, 2020, 08:57:48 AM

Quote
By your own citation, they referred to abortion as "ONE OF" mankind's greatest crimes, and you go on to attack them as if they were asserting that it is THE single greatest crime of mankind.
My point stands.  I am showing that their moral compass can't be completely trusted because 1) being these 4 bishops are still part of the V2 machine, they have yet to chastise the new mass and V2 with the same gusto and fervor that they use against abortion.  And it's beyond a doubt that a single new mass is more offensive to God than all abortions added together.  Mocking Our Lord's sacrifice on the cross is so heinous that it doesn't even come close to the crime of murder.
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2) I agree, it's a small point, but still valid.  On a natural level, their words say abortion is not the greatest evil, but their actions say otherwise.  What other sin gets the V2 clergy riled up and motivated to preach/write, but abortion? 
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Ladislaus on December 15, 2020, 09:00:36 AM
Problem 3 - These 4 Bishops make allowances for material cooperation in some sins, but not in abortion.  Why?
The most problematic paragraph of the article written by the 4 bishops is the following.  I split the paragraph into 3 parts, because each part is a different argument, and which corresponds to the 3 Problems I laid out above:
.
The theological principle of material cooperation is certainly valid and may be applied to a whole host of cases (e.g. in paying taxes, the use of products made from slave labor, and so on).

Your problems 1b and 2 are more of the same, complaining about how the NO has overemphasized their opposition to abortion ... to the exclusion of all other moral issues.  I'm not even going to bother with that, since it has nothing to do with the question at hand.

There must be some PROPORTIONATE reason even for REMOTE MATERIAL participation in evil, and the justifying reason must somehow be proportionate to the gravity of the original crime.  So, for instance, the standard for me to materially participate in someone having stolen a candy bar from a convenience store is much lower than for me to materially participate in murder or in an entire murder industry.

What these bishops are saying, and this is, as I said, their major contribution, which woke Bishop Williamson up, is that we are NOT merely participating in a single isolated act of abortion but in the entire abortion industry, this silent genocide that has been taking place for decades now.

There are different ways to be party to sin.  Let's take the example of sodomy.  Even if someone isn't a sodomite and has never committed an act of sodomy and would never think of it, one can be a formal active participant in the crime of sodomy if one were to publicly advocate that there's nothing wrong with it, or more directly, if one were a politician promoting legislation to legalize it and give it recognition.  This person would be guilty of something else than actual sodomy.

Similarly, there are two crimes taking place here in the vaccines.  One was an abortion that took place 60 years ago.  If that's ALL there were and this act could be viewed in isolation, where it was done by some woman in a back alley using coat hangers, against the law, then I could see the remote material cooperation argument being made.  But here we have a society which has LEGALIZED abortion and LEGALIZED the use of aborted fetal tissue in vaccines (and for other uses), and the vaccine is in fact the product of this legalization of abortion.  Consequently, by accepting the vaccine, we are participating in the legalization and approbation of abortion, and not merely in that single isolated abortion ... just like with the sodomy issue, where the guy is guilty, having never committed sodomy, of participating in the legalization and approbation of sodomy.

There's also the ongoing and present crime regarding the desecration of the human remains, part of which are arguably still present in the vaccine.  Even if it has been since transformed into a different substance, the fact that it derived from a human being still makes it a sin to abuse the remains.  Even if a person were cremated into a pile of ashes (which were not longer substantially his essence), the material continuity would preclude abuse of these ashes, using them, for instance, as kitty litter.  If I buy a vehicle I know was stolen, I am guilty of participating in the theft, even if I claim not to condone the original theft.  By my actions, I am condoning it, and I am participating in a present an ongoing act of injustice by remaining in possession of something that does not belong to me in justice.

You're so busy worried about formal this and material that, that you've lost your moral compass.  These bishops, even if they don't have as solid a grasp on scholastic terminology, have the correct moral compass regarding this issue.  God does not expect every Catholic to be a Thomistic moral theologian who can form syllogism and make distinctions.

It is a grave sin to participate in this horror that is the legalization of abortion and the abortion industry, and every Catholic with a good moral compass knows it.  Indeed, if we were just talking about a single isolated abortion that happened a long time ago, yes, indeed, one COULD conceivably make the "remote material" argument.  But participating in a culture where abortion is legal and permitted, that's essentially a FORMAL cooperation.  As the promoter of sodomy in my earlier example did not materially commit sodomy, he nevertheless formally participated in it by advocating its legalization.  So it is THAT FORMAL ONGOING PRESENT EVIL, the promotion of abortion's LEGALITY is what we're participating in by accepting these vaccines.  It's very similar to voting for a pro-sodomite and pro-abortionist politician ... even if I have no actual inclination to sodomy or desire to commit any abortions.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: confederate catholic on December 15, 2020, 09:34:54 AM
https://lozierinstitute.org/a-visual-aid-to-viral-infection-and-vaccine-production/

The above has how vaccines types are created

The file shows what ones have or use fetal cells.

Do not agree with all that they say
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: confederate catholic on December 15, 2020, 09:36:02 AM
https://lozierinstitute.org/update-covid-19-vaccine-candidates-and-abortion-derived-cell-lines/

Posted in case pdf doesn't work
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on December 15, 2020, 09:57:10 AM
And I'd counter it with 20 down votes.  It's total crap filled with invalid and specious arguments.  When/if I have time I'll address every one of his "points".
Let me be clear, I am totally against the vaccine for multiple reasons, but I believe Pax makes the cogent point that many Catholics seem to wrongly believe that abortion is the ultimate sin. It is not. One should avoid any vaccine that is made using aborted baby cells, but it seems to me that double effect *could possibly* be allowed in certain cases. We are in uncharted waters and this is precisely why we need a pope to guide us.
If the point you’re making is correct, then none of us in good conscience could give a dime in taxes or participate in any election due to our remote cooperation in government sanctioned sins. Is that your case?
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 09:59:35 AM
Fr Copenhagen's article makes the same arguments as Ladislaus:

https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/VaccineFrCopenhagen.pdf

Restore Ye to Its Owners: on the immorality of receiving vaccines derived from abortion

by Fr. Michael Copenhagen

“Take heed lest perhaps it be stolen: restore ye to its owners, for it is not lawful for us to eat or to touch anything that cometh by theft.” -Tobit 2:21

Such is the warning given by the just man Tobit, who suffered mockery, persecution, and tribulation at the hands of his own people because he sought to keep God’s law, to alone refuse idolatry and corruption in an evil age. He insisted on honoring God and neighbor by burying the dead at a time when the desecration of their remains was the state mandate. For this great deed, he was forced to flee and placed under a sentence of death. Holy Scripture relates this account because burying the dead is more than just a corporal work of mercy, it is a grave obligation so that the creature whom the Creator loves so much, fashioned after his own image and likeness, is not abandoned at the wayside to be disfigured and dishonored while the rest of us callously step over his remains to go about our daily commerce. Was not the dignity of the human body and soul elevated still more after the time of Tobit when our nature was assumed by the Son of God who took flesh of the Virgin and came in our likeness that we might be irreversibly elevated above the angels? Tobit’s predicament stemmed from honoring human nature and its Creator, and Tobit’s predicament now belongs to those who refuse vaccines made from aborted children.

How is this so? It is best to set aside sterilizing semantics to look at the plain truth. A child is torn fromits mother’s womb, and then immediately dissected, if possible alive with beating heart so that the sample is fresh. A piece of the child’s organ is then taken to a laboratory, immersed in an enzyme to break the tissue down into individual cells, and when a continually reproducing “immortal” cell line has been obtained after many such abortions, it is patented and the cells industrially multiplied in vats to become viral factories.(1) When a sufficient amount of the infectious virus is grown in the cells, the brew is processed in a way which destroys the whole cells but leaves behind the virus along with significant amounts of the child’s DNA and cellular protein. In the various states and territories, parents are required to administer this into the bodies of their children for the sake of the public good even though the vaccine could be produced in an alternative and ethical manner. Those who refuse it are banned from the public square.

Any healthy conscience has a natural revulsion to this ghoulish process and closer moral analysis certainly justifies that reaction. In determining the moral liceity of using vaccines derived from abortion, an assessment of cooperation with evil in terms of distance from the original abortion is a necessary but ultimately insufficient criterion because there is another distinct and more immediate category of sin involved. To conclude, as some have, that there is only mediate remote material cooperation in abortion by the vaccine recipient is a red herring. It shifts emphasis away from the specific moral character of possessing and using the cell line itself toward “historical association” with the original abortion, obscuring the central problem while even causing it to go unnamed. The recipient is an immediate participant in the commission of continuous theft of human remains obtained through deliberate killing, their desecration through exploitation and trafficking, as well as ultimate omission to respectfully bury them. While the original killing establishes the illicit character of using the remains, their possession and use becomes a distinct evil in itself, the circuмstances of which do not cease as a form of theft, desecration, exploitation, and refusal to bury, regardless of the consumer’s distance in time from the abortion, or the number of cell divisions, or the merely sub-cellular fragmentary inclusion of the child’s DNA and protein in the final dose.

Two sanitizing mischaracterizations contribute to this unwarranted shift in emphasis away from immediate continuing theft toward “historic” completed abortion. Firstly, the broadness of labelling human remains obtained through violence as “illicit biological material” is not only insufficient but dehumanizing and offensive. Although the vast majority if not all of the cells currently used did not physically constitute part of the child’s original body, these cells still belong to the child. They are a living remnant of the child’s life in this world. If they are not the child’s cells then whose cell’s are they? Is it possible to stretch jargon so far as to say that these are no one’s cells? No person donating their tissue for cell culture and knowingly encountering the resultant cells in a lab would identify them as anything other than “my DNA, my cells.” The child has been silenced, the parents have forfeited by abortion any right of consent to respectful scientific use of the body, the scientists and patent holders have no right to possess or use the cells: these human remains belong to God, must be respectfully reposed, and it is not for Caesar to say otherwise.

Secondly, “historical distance” from the abortion does not distance us from the possession of somethingstolen. If I am the beneficiary of a violent bank robbery where the clerk was murdered to secure funds, my personal distance from the robbery does not make it licit to possess or spend those funds or even other monies made playing the stock market with them. If this is the case with lifeless currency, how much more with the body of an innocent human being. If a copyrighted film is captured, reproduced, and sold through the internet, it does not somehow become licit to possess and use it simply because it has been copied many times over from the original, even if I have provided the means of copying, storage, and playback. The copyright protected item is the original artistic creation. Our artist is the Divine Author of human nature who produces a unique biological and spiritual work in His own image and likeness. It is absurd to say to public consumers that everyone must indefinitely use stolen work to help lessen the likelihood of a potential future problem even though a perfectly fine substitute can be easily and ethically provided. How much more with cannibalizing human remains obtained through violence. No one is bound to participate in one sin in order to avoid another. It is never permissible to do evil for a good purpose.

For those who argue that participation becomes licit if receiving the vaccine is looked at as a temporarysolution to a significant public health danger, they should know that it is not temporary but expanding and that it will be forced regardless of whether it helps public health or not. Public authorities who support public murder cannot be taken seriously as guarantors of public health. If immortality through medicine is the new religion then the insurance card is our baptismal certificate, psychiatry its confession, doctors its priests, the medical bureaucracy its hierarchy, research its contemplation, euthanasia its anointing, and its eucharist is the pharmaceutical solution, particularly vaccination. One person is sacrificed that the nation might live, their body multiplied and distributed by the priests. “Those who do not eat the flesh and drink the blood of this sacrifice will not have life in them.” So we are told. It seems there is little more than a lab coat between this and human sacrifice as medicinal witchcraft.

And there is an inquisition coming for those who contradict the new dogma. In one Washington Postarticle, we are put on notice:
  “The initial steps we have taken are essential: prohibit non-vaccinated children from public spaces,including schools; promote educational efforts; and, in extreme cases, force isolation on pockets ofpopulations...Viewed through the lens of public safety, it is the parents who should be punished. Why notmake them pay for the harms they are causing?...Fines for the increased public safety burdens put onthese communities by a few ought not to be the responsibility of all. In many states, when hikers ignorewarnings that certain trails are too dangerous and then have to be rescued, the fees for the rescue must bepaid by the hikers. It’s a fine for making a self-centered decision that placed an unreasonable burden ona larger community. Measles should be no different...In the same way we have created sex-offenderslists to protect our children, communities can inventory families that choose not to be vaccinated,notifying employers of these parents as well as neighbors who may choose not to expose their children.”(2)

Isolation, fines, public humiliation, and blacklisting. There is historic precedent as to where this leads. Despite the public threat in his own day, Tobit proceeded in his work under the command that he be slain, obeying the law of God rather than the unjust law of men while risking his life to do so. God made him an example of faithfulness amidst hardship. When he was mocked by his kinsmen for adherence to these good works and told that his deeds were hopeless, he rebuked them: “Speak not so. For we are the children of saints, and look for that life which God will give to those that never change their faith from Him.”(3) I remind all those who imitate Tobit’s naysayers and persecutors that the God of heaven and earth is very much alive and very much offended, that He loves each of these murdered and exploited children as His particular creatures, that He will restore life to their bodies in the Resurrection on the last day, rejoining body and soul in these innocents who were denied baptism and the chance to live based on the whim of tinkerers trying to extend our finite years, that He will restore this “biological material” to its rightful place and its rightful owner on that day, and we will all meet these children face to face.


1 A lengthy account of the development and use of this process is given by Dr. Leonard Hayflick in an interview where heexplicitly discusses his creation of the WI-38 fetal cell line.

2 Julliette Kayyem. Anti-vaxxers are dangerous. Make them face isolation, fines, arrests. 30 April 2019. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/04/30/time-get-much-tougher-anti-vaccine-crowd/

3 Tobias 2:17-18
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 10:08:56 AM
Fr Wolfe article:

https://cogforlife.org/fr-phil-wolfe/#more-840

The Morality of using Vaccines derived from Fetal Tissue Cultures:
A Few Considerations
Fr. Phil Wolfe, FSSP
Catholics troubled by the morality of using vaccines derived from fetal tissue cultures should be mindful of the ancient axiom: Bonum ex integra causa, malum ex quocuмque defectu.  (Goodness arises from an integral cause, evil arises from any defect whatsoever)

What does this axiom mean?  It means that the moral goodness or evil of an act can be determined by a thoughtful assessment of the act itself, as well as its attending circuмstances.  A good act, attended by good circuмstances, is said to have an integral cause, and thus can be safely performed by Catholics;  but however admirable an act may be in other respects, if even one of the circuмstances is gravely evil, the act cannot be recommended to Catholics.

How, then, can a Catholic thoughtfully assess the morality of an act, such as these vaccinations?

He must determine the goodness by assessing the morality of the object and the circuмstances of the act.

The first consideration is to assess the moral object of the act.  What is the moral object of a vaccination?  Let’s use a specific example to illustrate: an immunization against Measles, Mumps and Rubella using the MMR II vaccine.  Since the moral object of any act is the exterior act as proposed by reason, in this case, the moral object of the act of immunizing a child with MMR II is to give him an inoculation with this vaccine so as to induce an immune response – so that he will be immune to measles, mumps and rubella.  This – in itself – is a good moral object.

The circuмstances which surround the MMR II vaccination must now be considered. The circuмstances are those things that “stand around” an act, and qualify it in some manner.  There are 7 circuмstances: who, what, where, by what aid, why, how and when.   (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo,q. 2, a. 6.)  If all the attending circuмstances are good, or indifferent, then that act is good; that act arises from an integral cause.  If one or more of the attending circuмstances are evil, then there is a defect, and the act itself is evil.

For this particular act, that of immunizing a child with MMR II, the circuмstance which deserves close scrutiny is “by what aid.”  “By what aid” refers to the instrumental cause, or agent of the act, in this case the MMR II vaccine, a product produced using fetal tissue, obtained from an aborted baby, as a culture medium.

At this point a feeling of extreme unease might overcome the Catholic who is attempting to assess the morality of this procedure.  He recognizes that the moral object of the act is good – to immunize a child against these diseases –  and he recognizes that if all the attending circuмstances were good, he could safely conclude that this act would be good.  But now he reaches the uneasy notion that this vaccine is tainted in some fashion, since it was produced using fetal tissue.  May he then use it – since he is not directly approving of the abortion which made production of this vaccine possible?  He wonders, does this circuмstance “by what aid” pertain here?  Can he disclaim the origin of this vaccine, as some have argued, on the basis that his use would only be a remote material cooperation with the intrinsic evil of the direct abortion and use of the aborted baby’s tissue?

In order to answer these questions, he should pay thoughtful attention to the rules for restitution for a possessor in bad faith, which is to say, that he should study the “rules for returning things that he knows don’t belong to him.”

Now, in order that a Catholic get a reasonably solid grasp on the rules for restitution for a possessor in bad faith, a few illustrations will first be offered; and then the rules will be applied to the situation at hand.
Imagine a man steals his neighbor’s lawnmower.  He knows full well that he has NO right to this thing.  This man is in bad faith.  So possession in bad faith means that the man who has the goods in bad faith knows full well that they are not rightfully his.

Now, suppose that the thief sells this lawnmower to another man for a very good price, and tells him that the price is so cheap because the lawnmower is stolen.   Is the man who just bought this lawnmower – knowing full well it was stolen – in good faith?  No, he’s also an example of possession in bad faith.  Now, supposing, in either of these cases, the man who has unjust possession of this lawnmower repents:  What does he have to do?

There’s one basic rule:  A man in bad faith has to make restitution for ALL the foreseeable damage caused to the lawful owner.  It’s easy to understand – he’s responsible for the damage, so he has to fix it.
Now what does that mean, in these cases?

1) he has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, a stolen lawnmower.
 2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.  So, even if he doesn’t have the lawnmower anymore, he still owes the poor man he stole it from either the equivalent value in  money or an equivalent lawnmower.

Now, suppose a little more complicated situation: Suppose that the original owner of the lawnmower used it for business.  And now he is sitting around without his equipment, unable to work, since his mower was stolen. And suppose, again, that the thief repents.  What does the thief have to do for restitution?

1) The thief still has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, a stolen lawnmower.
 2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.

Now, he has Another responsibility, since a man in bad faith has to make good for all the foreseeable damage caused to the lawful owner.  And that is the 3rd point:

3) He has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered – in this case, the $ lost from being unable to work has to be restored to the owner.

Now suppose a even more complicated situation:  Suppose the thief put some work into the lawnmower; suppose that he did 3 things – he painted it  – not because it needed paint but to make sure he didn’t get caught with a stolen lawnmower. Then, he had it tuned up since it was running a little rough, and this tune-up was definitely very useful.  Then, since the blade was so dinged up it hardly cut, he put a new blade on the mower.  And after putting all this into this stolen lawnmower, he repented.  What does he have to do now?

1) the thief still has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: the stolen lawnmower.
 2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.
 3) He still has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered – in this case, the money lost from being unable to work has to be restored to the owner.
 4) But this time – He can deduct any useful or necessary expenses – a useful expense improves the item; a necessary expense preserves it.  For example, the tune-up was a useful expense; the new blade was a necessary expense.  But the paint wasn’t either useful or necessary but only done for the sake of camouflage, so he can’t deduct that expense.

Now, suppose an entirely different situation: Imagine a rustler who steals about 20 head of cows., and then, 2 years later, he repents.  What is he responsible for?

1) A thief  has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, 20 head of cows – not bulls, not steers.
 2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.  So, if he sold some of the cows, he has to replace that same number.
 3) He has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered – in this case, the money lost from not having those 2 years of a calf-crop.
 4) He can deduct any useful or necessary expenses – a useful expense improves the item; a necessary expense preserves it.  For example, veterinary bills and pasturage.

Here’s the new addition:
 5) He has to restore all the natural products of the property.   Lawnmowers don’t have natural products.  But cows do.  What are natural products?  Something produced naturally, by the very nature of the creature.  In the case of cattle, the natural products of beef cows are calves.  Milk cows – milk and calves…. For an apple tree, it’s apples… for a peach tree, it’s the peaches, for a hay field, the hay,  and so forth… So this rustler has to return any calves, heifers, steers or bulls born out of those 20 head since he stole them.  He can’t keep them.  He can’t build up a herd on stolen cattle.  They have to go back; they belong to the original owner. He can’t profit on his rustling.

Now how does all this apply to the situation with the MMR II vaccine?  If a man in bad faith has to restore all the natural products of the property he has unjust possession of, how can the pharmaceutical companies possibly justify their possession of the natural product of a little baby,  the tissue used to culture the vaccine; the same tissue which was – in an act of supreme injustice – carved out of the flesh of a baby?  It is crystal clear that all those involved are in bad faith, and that restitution must be made; that these tissues not only not be utilized in any sort of experimentation or production at all, but that they be allowed to die.  There are no provisos in the rules for restitution which could excuse a possessor in bad faith from returning his ill-gotten goods, on the condition that he could do all kinds of interesting research with his contraband.  These people are in bad faith, and they are in unjust possession of someone else’s tissues without any  right.

But, you say, what if the mother agreed to donate the tissue from her aborted child for research?  The parents have no right to donate their aborted child for medical research.  Bodily rights ultimately belong to God and when He creates us He gives us conditional rights over our bodies. Through natural death, God cedes the right over the body to the next of kin (or state if there is no next of kin). When someone is murdered, they violate not only the person’s conditional rights over their body, but they also usurp God’s rights by killing that person. God’s rights are usurped because it is ultimately God’s body to give to whom He pleases. Through natural death it is clear that God is giving the body to someone else because He has taken it from the person who had it. So in abortion, the parents have usurped rights over the child’s body which is not theirs because God did not cede the rights to them; they illicitly took them. Therefore, the parents of an aborted child or the person who murders can not use the body of the person they killed. With abortion and murder, the only way that justice is served is that the body must be buried. This in a sense gives the body back to God and it respects the right of the individual by not doing anything with the body since the person’s will regarding their body can not be ascertained.

The notion of possession in bad faith – when applied to fetal tissue culture – is only an analogical usage. Why?  Because unlike the situation wherein a rustler could actually purchase the cattle he had stolen, and thus come into legitimate possession of that previously stolen livestock –  no power on Earth can give anyone the right to possess, purchase or preserve tissue taken from a sacrificed baby.   Human tissue obtained in such a manner is not an object of possession, and can never be an object of possession, irregardless if they are producing vaccines for every disease on Earth.  The evil use of fetal tissue for someone’s good cannot justify the situation: it is a screaming violation of justice.  In this case, the circuмstance of “by what aid” is evil, and therefore the whole act of immunizing a child with the MMR II vaccine, as originally considered, is evil:  Bonum ex integra causa, malum ex quocuмque defectu.  (Goodness arises from an integral cause, evil arises from any defect whatsoever.)

It is immoral to knowingly use any medical products – vaccines, monoclonal antibodies, stem cells, you name it, which are derived from tissue obtained via abortion or embryonic destruction.

Appendix:

The rules for the duty of restitution.

A man may be possessed of the property of another without a just title either through an act of injustice, e.g., fraud, theft, usury, etc., or in good faith, e.g., by purchase, donation, or legacy.  In the former case there is a culpa theologica, i.e., a formal violation of strict justice (iustitia commutativa), in the latter there is merely a material injustice.  These two forms of unjust possession determine the manner in which restitution must be made.

The general rules for determining the duty of restitution are the following: 
a) “Res clamat domino,” i.e., the rightful owner is entitled to his property, no matter into whose hands it may have fallen.  This rule follows necessarily from the nature of property and ownership.  In applying it, however, due regard must be paid to prescription, etc.
 b) “Res fructificat domino,” i.e., the rightful owner is entitled to the fruits of his property, provided, of course, he has not ceded this right to others.
 c) “Res naturaliter perit domino,” i.e., the right of ownership is bound up with the object owned and ceases with that object.  If the object has perished, but its value continues, the original owner is entitled to the latter, as e.g., when a ton of wheat has been sold and the sum received is still in the hands of the seller.  If a thing has perished not from natural causes, but through the fault of the possessor, the owner is entitled to restitution.
 d) “Nemo ex re aliena locupletari potest,” i.e., no one has a right to enrich himself with the property of another, for the fruits of that property do not belong to the unlawful possessor but to the rightful owner.  

If the possessor can not reach the owner, he must make restitution to the heirs.

The fruits of a thing (fructus rei) may be:
1) Fructus naturales, natural, i.e., derived from the thing itself (beneficio naturae) without the co-operation of man, or with but slight co-operation on his part, for example, fruits of trees, wood in a forest, grass on a meadow, milk, wool, etc.;
 2) Fructus industriales, i.e., fruits of human industry or toil, such as the profits from a sale or purchase, etc.;
 3) Fructus mixti, which are partly the result of industry (ex industria) and partly of the natural or artificial fertility of the property  (ex re ipsa), for instance, grain, wine, etc.;
 4) Fructus civiles, which are derived from an object by means of the civil law, e.g., rent, salary, etc.  The latter category may be reduced to the first (fructus naturales).


I. One may be in possession of the property of another either in bad faith or in good faith.  A possessor malae fidei is one who knows, or has good reason for believing, that the property he holds belongs to another.  Such a one is bound to restore to the rightful owner whatever the latter has been unjustly deprived of, that is to say:
 a) The stolen property itself, for “res clamat domino.”  If the property no longer exists, its value must be restored.  If it has deteriorated in value whilst under the control of the unlawful possessor, restitution must be made of the value it had when it was taken from its rightful owner.  If its value has increased, it must be restored as it is, with all its fruits, for, “res fructificat domino.”  If the stolen property fluctuated in value after the theft, the owner’s loss bust be made good, and if he intended to sell it when at its highest value, that value must be restored to him.
 b) All the fruits of the property, natural, industrial, and mixed, must be restored to its owner.  But any necessary or useful expensed incurred by the legitimate possessor for the preservation or improvement of the property, as well as such fruits as may be the result of special efforts on his part, may be deducted.
 c) The damage suffered by the owner in consequence of being deprived of what belonged to him (damnum emergens) as well as any profits he may have lost (lucrum cessans), must also be restored to him.


(From A Handbook of Moral Theology by the Reverend Antony Koch, D.D., adapted and edited by Arthur Preuss.  Volume V.  Man’s Duties to His Fellowmen.  B. Herder Book Company.  St Louis, MO.  1933 pp. 379-383.)
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 10:18:48 AM
Fr Ripperger video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfRvMqxWLlA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfRvMqxWLlA)
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 15, 2020, 10:38:13 AM
Fr Wolfe article:

https://cogforlife.org/fr-phil-wolfe/#more-840

The Morality of using Vaccines derived from Fetal Tissue Cultures:
A Few Considerations
Fr. Phil Wolfe, FSSP
Catholics troubled by the morality of using vaccines derived from fetal tissue cultures should be mindful of the ancient axiom: Bonum ex integra causa, malum ex quocuмque defectu.  (Goodness arises from an integral cause, evil arises from any defect whatsoever)

What does this axiom mean?  It means that the moral goodness or evil of an act can be determined by a thoughtful assessment of the act itself, as well as its attending circuмstances.  A good act, attended by good circuмstances, is said to have an integral cause, and thus can be safely performed by Catholics;  but however admirable an act may be in other respects, if even one of the circuмstances is gravely evil, the act cannot be recommended to Catholics.

How, then, can a Catholic thoughtfully assess the morality of an act, such as these vaccinations?

He must determine the goodness by assessing the morality of the object and the circuмstances of the act.

The first consideration is to assess the moral object of the act.  What is the moral object of a vaccination?  Let’s use a specific example to illustrate: an immunization against Measles, Mumps and Rubella using the MMR II vaccine.  Since the moral object of any act is the exterior act as proposed by reason, in this case, the moral object of the act of immunizing a child with MMR II is to give him an inoculation with this vaccine so as to induce an immune response – so that he will be immune to measles, mumps and rubella.  This – in itself – is a good moral object.

The circuмstances which surround the MMR II vaccination must now be considered. The circuмstances are those things that “stand around” an act, and qualify it in some manner.  There are 7 circuмstances: who, what, where, by what aid, why, how and when.   (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo,q. 2, a. 6.)  If all the attending circuмstances are good, or indifferent, then that act is good; that act arises from an integral cause.  If one or more of the attending circuмstances are evil, then there is a defect, and the act itself is evil.

For this particular act, that of immunizing a child with MMR II, the circuмstance which deserves close scrutiny is “by what aid.”  “By what aid” refers to the instrumental cause, or agent of the act, in this case the MMR II vaccine, a product produced using fetal tissue, obtained from an aborted baby, as a culture medium.

At this point a feeling of extreme unease might overcome the Catholic who is attempting to assess the morality of this procedure.  He recognizes that the moral object of the act is good – to immunize a child against these diseases –  and he recognizes that if all the attending circuмstances were good, he could safely conclude that this act would be good.  But now he reaches the uneasy notion that this vaccine is tainted in some fashion, since it was produced using fetal tissue.  May he then use it – since he is not directly approving of the abortion which made production of this vaccine possible?  He wonders, does this circuмstance “by what aid” pertain here?  Can he disclaim the origin of this vaccine, as some have argued, on the basis that his use would only be a remote material cooperation with the intrinsic evil of the direct abortion and use of the aborted baby’s tissue?

In order to answer these questions, he should pay thoughtful attention to the rules for restitution for a possessor in bad faith, which is to say, that he should study the “rules for returning things that he knows don’t belong to him.”

Now, in order that a Catholic get a reasonably solid grasp on the rules for restitution for a possessor in bad faith, a few illustrations will first be offered; and then the rules will be applied to the situation at hand.
Imagine a man steals his neighbor’s lawnmower.  He knows full well that he has NO right to this thing.  This man is in bad faith.  So possession in bad faith means that the man who has the goods in bad faith knows full well that they are not rightfully his.

Now, suppose that the thief sells this lawnmower to another man for a very good price, and tells him that the price is so cheap because the lawnmower is stolen.   Is the man who just bought this lawnmower – knowing full well it was stolen – in good faith?  No, he’s also an example of possession in bad faith.  Now, supposing, in either of these cases, the man who has unjust possession of this lawnmower repents:  What does he have to do?

There’s one basic rule:  A man in bad faith has to make restitution for ALL the foreseeable damage caused to the lawful owner.  It’s easy to understand – he’s responsible for the damage, so he has to fix it.
Now what does that mean, in these cases?

1) he has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, a stolen lawnmower.
 2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.  So, even if he doesn’t have the lawnmower anymore, he still owes the poor man he stole it from either the equivalent value in  money or an equivalent lawnmower.

Now, suppose a little more complicated situation: Suppose that the original owner of the lawnmower used it for business.  And now he is sitting around without his equipment, unable to work, since his mower was stolen. And suppose, again, that the thief repents.  What does the thief have to do for restitution?

1) The thief still has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, a stolen lawnmower.
 2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.

Now, he has Another responsibility, since a man in bad faith has to make good for all the foreseeable damage caused to the lawful owner.  And that is the 3rd point:

3) He has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered – in this case, the $ lost from being unable to work has to be restored to the owner.

Now suppose a even more complicated situation:  Suppose the thief put some work into the lawnmower; suppose that he did 3 things – he painted it  – not because it needed paint but to make sure he didn’t get caught with a stolen lawnmower. Then, he had it tuned up since it was running a little rough, and this tune-up was definitely very useful.  Then, since the blade was so dinged up it hardly cut, he put a new blade on the mower.  And after putting all this into this stolen lawnmower, he repented.  What does he have to do now?

1) the thief still has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: the stolen lawnmower.
 2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.
 3) He still has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered – in this case, the money lost from being unable to work has to be restored to the owner.
 4) But this time – He can deduct any useful or necessary expenses – a useful expense improves the item; a necessary expense preserves it.  For example, the tune-up was a useful expense; the new blade was a necessary expense.  But the paint wasn’t either useful or necessary but only done for the sake of camouflage, so he can’t deduct that expense.

Now, suppose an entirely different situation: Imagine a rustler who steals about 20 head of cows., and then, 2 years later, he repents.  What is he responsible for?

1) A thief  has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, 20 head of cows – not bulls, not steers.
 2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.  So, if he sold some of the cows, he has to replace that same number.
 3) He has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered – in this case, the money lost from not having those 2 years of a calf-crop.
 4) He can deduct any useful or necessary expenses – a useful expense improves the item; a necessary expense preserves it.  For example, veterinary bills and pasturage.

Here’s the new addition:
 5) He has to restore all the natural products of the property.   Lawnmowers don’t have natural products.  But cows do.  What are natural products?  Something produced naturally, by the very nature of the creature.  In the case of cattle, the natural products of beef cows are calves.  Milk cows – milk and calves…. For an apple tree, it’s apples… for a peach tree, it’s the peaches, for a hay field, the hay,  and so forth… So this rustler has to return any calves, heifers, steers or bulls born out of those 20 head since he stole them.  He can’t keep them.  He can’t build up a herd on stolen cattle.  They have to go back; they belong to the original owner. He can’t profit on his rustling.

Now how does all this apply to the situation with the MMR II vaccine?  If a man in bad faith has to restore all the natural products of the property he has unjust possession of, how can the pharmaceutical companies possibly justify their possession of the natural product of a little baby,  the tissue used to culture the vaccine; the same tissue which was – in an act of supreme injustice – carved out of the flesh of a baby?  It is crystal clear that all those involved are in bad faith, and that restitution must be made; that these tissues not only not be utilized in any sort of experimentation or production at all, but that they be allowed to die.  There are no provisos in the rules for restitution which could excuse a possessor in bad faith from returning his ill-gotten goods, on the condition that he could do all kinds of interesting research with his contraband.  These people are in bad faith, and they are in unjust possession of someone else’s tissues without any  right.

But, you say, what if the mother agreed to donate the tissue from her aborted child for research?  The parents have no right to donate their aborted child for medical research.  Bodily rights ultimately belong to God and when He creates us He gives us conditional rights over our bodies. Through natural death, God cedes the right over the body to the next of kin (or state if there is no next of kin). When someone is murdered, they violate not only the person’s conditional rights over their body, but they also usurp God’s rights by killing that person. God’s rights are usurped because it is ultimately God’s body to give to whom He pleases. Through natural death it is clear that God is giving the body to someone else because He has taken it from the person who had it. So in abortion, the parents have usurped rights over the child’s body which is not theirs because God did not cede the rights to them; they illicitly took them. Therefore, the parents of an aborted child or the person who murders can not use the body of the person they killed. With abortion and murder, the only way that justice is served is that the body must be buried. This in a sense gives the body back to God and it respects the right of the individual by not doing anything with the body since the person’s will regarding their body can not be ascertained.

The notion of possession in bad faith – when applied to fetal tissue culture – is only an analogical usage. Why?  Because unlike the situation wherein a rustler could actually purchase the cattle he had stolen, and thus come into legitimate possession of that previously stolen livestock –  no power on Earth can give anyone the right to possess, purchase or preserve tissue taken from a sacrificed baby.   Human tissue obtained in such a manner is not an object of possession, and can never be an object of possession, irregardless if they are producing vaccines for every disease on Earth.  The evil use of fetal tissue for someone’s good cannot justify the situation: it is a screaming violation of justice.  In this case, the circuмstance of “by what aid” is evil, and therefore the whole act of immunizing a child with the MMR II vaccine, as originally considered, is evil:  Bonum ex integra causa, malum ex quocuмque defectu.  (Goodness arises from an integral cause, evil arises from any defect whatsoever.)

It is immoral to knowingly use any medical products – vaccines, monoclonal antibodies, stem cells, you name it, which are derived from tissue obtained via abortion or embryonic destruction.

Appendix:

The rules for the duty of restitution.

A man may be possessed of the property of another without a just title either through an act of injustice, e.g., fraud, theft, usury, etc., or in good faith, e.g., by purchase, donation, or legacy.  In the former case there is a culpa theologica, i.e., a formal violation of strict justice (iustitia commutativa), in the latter there is merely a material injustice.  These two forms of unjust possession determine the manner in which restitution must be made.

The general rules for determining the duty of restitution are the following:
a) “Res clamat domino,” i.e., the rightful owner is entitled to his property, no matter into whose hands it may have fallen.  This rule follows necessarily from the nature of property and ownership.  In applying it, however, due regard must be paid to prescription, etc.
 b) “Res fructificat domino,” i.e., the rightful owner is entitled to the fruits of his property, provided, of course, he has not ceded this right to others.
 c) “Res naturaliter perit domino,” i.e., the right of ownership is bound up with the object owned and ceases with that object.  If the object has perished, but its value continues, the original owner is entitled to the latter, as e.g., when a ton of wheat has been sold and the sum received is still in the hands of the seller.  If a thing has perished not from natural causes, but through the fault of the possessor, the owner is entitled to restitution.
 d) “Nemo ex re aliena locupletari potest,” i.e., no one has a right to enrich himself with the property of another, for the fruits of that property do not belong to the unlawful possessor but to the rightful owner.  

If the possessor can not reach the owner, he must make restitution to the heirs.

The fruits of a thing (fructus rei) may be:
1) Fructus naturales, natural, i.e., derived from the thing itself (beneficio naturae) without the co-operation of man, or with but slight co-operation on his part, for example, fruits of trees, wood in a forest, grass on a meadow, milk, wool, etc.;
 2) Fructus industriales, i.e., fruits of human industry or toil, such as the profits from a sale or purchase, etc.;
 3) Fructus mixti, which are partly the result of industry (ex industria) and partly of the natural or artificial fertility of the property  (ex re ipsa), for instance, grain, wine, etc.;
 4) Fructus civiles, which are derived from an object by means of the civil law, e.g., rent, salary, etc.  The latter category may be reduced to the first (fructus naturales).


I. One may be in possession of the property of another either in bad faith or in good faith.  A possessor malae fidei is one who knows, or has good reason for believing, that the property he holds belongs to another.  Such a one is bound to restore to the rightful owner whatever the latter has been unjustly deprived of, that is to say:
 a) The stolen property itself, for “res clamat domino.”  If the property no longer exists, its value must be restored.  If it has deteriorated in value whilst under the control of the unlawful possessor, restitution must be made of the value it had when it was taken from its rightful owner.  If its value has increased, it must be restored as it is, with all its fruits, for, “res fructificat domino.”  If the stolen property fluctuated in value after the theft, the owner’s loss bust be made good, and if he intended to sell it when at its highest value, that value must be restored to him.
 b) All the fruits of the property, natural, industrial, and mixed, must be restored to its owner.  But any necessary or useful expensed incurred by the legitimate possessor for the preservation or improvement of the property, as well as such fruits as may be the result of special efforts on his part, may be deducted.
 c) The damage suffered by the owner in consequence of being deprived of what belonged to him (damnum emergens) as well as any profits he may have lost (lucrum cessans), must also be restored to him.


(From A Handbook of Moral Theology by the Reverend Antony Koch, D.D., adapted and edited by Arthur Preuss.  Volume V.  Man’s Duties to His Fellowmen.  B. Herder Book Company.  St Louis, MO.  1933 pp. 379-383.)
This might be the strongest argument against the permissibility of using abortive vaccines so far.
It would seem to preclude recourse to the remote passive material cooperation argument.
And between Fr. Copenhagen’s argument, and Fr. Wolf, they say there is nothing remote about this cooperation: They say the theft of cells is a continuous present and ongoing sin.
I think this is what Fr. Scott was also getting at in the 2000 article.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: ByzCat3000 on December 15, 2020, 10:43:39 AM
And I'd counter it with 20 down votes.  It's total crap filled with invalid and specious arguments.  When/if I have time I'll address every one of his "points".
To be clear I upvoted it because it seemed like a sincere attempt to wrestle with a difficult issue, not because I disagreed with it per se.

Im still kinda mulling over the issue from a philosophical standpoint, and haven't definitively come to a conclusion, but like Pax, I wouldn't take the vaccine regardless.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 15, 2020, 11:01:52 AM
Are Fr’s Copenhagen and Wolf saying that the remote material cooperation argument is erroneous and inadmissible, because, since one who would take the vaccine implicitly wills to benefit from that ongoing theft/sin, and therefore this cooperation is actually direct and formal (not remote or material)?

I don’t recall either using the term “formal,” but that seems to be the implication of their argument.

This is a very strong argument, and I think the burden now shifts to those who are defending the permissibility of receiving abortive vaccines in reliance upon remote material cooperation in evil to explain how/why the ongoing theft of cells is not direct and formal cooperation.

Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: PAT317 on December 15, 2020, 11:02:10 AM
I have purchased this book VACCINATION: A Catholic Perspective - Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation (https://www.kolbecenter.org/product/vaccination-a-catholic-perspective/) and in it Pam refers to two article and one video that discuses the "PRESENT and ONGOING" aspect of it. My work computer does not allow my to get the articles but you should be able to find them here https://cogforlife.org Once there, look for the article by Fr. Wolfe and one from Fr. Copenhagen, also a video by Fr. Ripperger.
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Interview with the author:
https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=54
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https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=2801
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^ “The vaccines that are made in aborted fetal cells can’t be completely …all the cell debris can’t be completely purified out of those vaccine preparations, so when you’re getting vaccinated for chicken pox, you’re also receiving proteins & DNA that was originally in those aborted fetal cells. So you’re getting DNA from another human being whose cells have been growing in a laboratory since the 1970s, so who knows what kind of mutations are growing in there.  ‘Cause they had to mutate it to grow in the laboratory in the first place. This DNA is getting injected into your body.”


https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=288 (https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=2885)6

^ “The chicken pox vaccine has more aborted fetal DNA in it than it has active ingredient for the chicken pox.”  
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Pax Vobis on December 15, 2020, 11:03:32 AM

Quote
how/why the ongoing theft of cells is not direct and formal cooperation.

Ok, but material cooperation with theft is vastly different than material cooperation with murder.
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Secondly, the 4 Novus Ordo Bishops say that remote material cooperation with slave labor products is allowable.  Why is not remote material cooperation with theft also not allowable?
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Seems there are multiple arguments flying around.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 11:09:02 AM
Are Fr’s Copenhagen and Wolf saying that the remote material cooperation argument is erroneous and inadmissible, because, since one who would take the vaccine implicitly wills to benefit from that ongoing theft/sin, and therefore this cooperation is actually direct and formal (not remote or material)?

I don’t recall either using the term “formal,” but that seems to be the implication of their argument.

This is a very strong argument, and I think the burden now shifts to those who are defending the permissibility of receiving abortive vaccines in reliance upon remote material cooperation in evil to explain how/why the ongoing theft of cells is not direct and formal cooperation.
I don't see where they say that directly but it seems like an obvious logical consequence.  If the cells are equivalent to stolen property then it is immoral to knowingly traffic in them.  You would be implicated in the crime.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 15, 2020, 11:09:50 AM
Ok, but material cooperation with theft is vastly different than material cooperation with murder.
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Secondly, the 4 Novus Ordo Bishops say that remote material cooperation with slave labor products is allowable.  Why is not remote material cooperation with theft also not allowable?
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Seems there are multiple arguments flying around.

You missed their whole argument:

Fr’s Wolf and Copenhagen seem to be saying forget about the remote material, because anyone taking the vaccine receives stolen property (and in willing the benefit, they will the ongoing sin).

That would make cooperation formal, and jettison the whole remote material line of argument from the conversation.

The SSPX will need to conquer this argument if they are going to dig their heels in on the remote material argument.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 11:45:36 AM
.
Interview with the author:
https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=54
.
.
https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=2801
.
^ “The vaccines that are made in aborted fetal cells can’t be completely …all the cell debris can’t be completely purified out of those vaccine preparations, so when you’re getting vaccinated for chicken pox, you’re also receiving proteins & DNA that was originally in those aborted fetal cells. So you’re getting DNA from another human being whose cells have been growing in a laboratory since the 1970s, so who knows what kind of mutations are growing in there.  ‘Cause they had to mutate it to grow in the laboratory in the first place. This DNA is getting injected into your body.”


https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=288 (https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=2885)6

^ “The chicken pox vaccine has more aborted fetal DNA in it than it has active ingredient for the chicken pox.”  
Thanks for this!  I'm not halfway through yet but she already has said that the idea that the vaccines are from one abortion in the early 70s is a lie.  These vaccines are being developed with many aborted babies.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 11:53:58 AM
Sean, please listen to Pamela Acker at about 35:30 mark: https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=54 (https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=54)

I think maybe Fr Ripperger would still support the idea that it is remote material cooperation.  Clearly, all these different commentators are not on the same page.  But the idea that these fetal cell lines (DNA from aborted babies) are the equivalent of stolen property is persistent and seems to be gaining traction.  We should take the more cautious position which in my mind is the stricter view that taking these vaccines is immoral.  If every one who claims to be Catholic took the same view, the abortion industry is dead.  How can we be justified if our actions contribute to the ongoing murder of babies?
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Pax Vobis on December 15, 2020, 12:09:31 PM

Quote
Fr’s Wolf and Copenhagen seem to be saying forget about the remote material, because anyone taking the vaccine receives stolen property (and in willing the benefit, they will the ongoing sin).

That would make cooperation formal, and jettison the whole remote material line of argument from the conversation.

Ok, even if the cooperation is formal, it means you are cooperating with stealing cells, not abortion.  If some mad scientist drugged me and stole my kidney, that's not murder.  If he stole my kidney and THEN killed me, then murder is a second sin, on top of stealing my kidney.
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If the fetal cells have to be taken from a live baby, then how is murder part of this discussion?  Does the taking of cells kill the child?  Or is it survivable?  If it's survivable, then one could argue that the taking of cells is separate from the abortion.  Even if it's done by the same doctor, these are 2 different acts.
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Example:  A thief goes into a bank and shoots the teller in the foot, so that she'll open the vault and let him take $.  The thief gets the money and before he leaves, he decides to shoot her dead, just for fun.  The thief's buddies that take part in the stolen $ are (arguably) not guilty for the murder because it wasn't essential to the robbery.  His buddies are only guilty for taking part in the theft.  The murder was the sole decision of the thief.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 15, 2020, 12:12:10 PM
Sean, please listen to Pamela Acker at about 35:30 mark: https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=54 (https://youtu.be/9PDvhKyUu2Y?t=54)

I think maybe Fr Ripperger would still support the idea that it is remote material cooperation.  Clearly, all these different commentators are not on the same page.  But the idea that these fetal cell lines (DNA from aborted babies) are the equivalent of stolen property is persistent and seems to be gaining traction.  We should take the more cautious position which in my mind is the stricter view that taking these vaccines is immoral.  If every one who claims to be Catholic took the same view, the abortion industry is dead.  How can we be justified if our actions contribute to the ongoing murder of babies?

Clemens-

Others have mentioned it, but you have been making some rock-solid posts on this topic.

Thank you for your efforts on this difficult subject!!
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 15, 2020, 12:21:28 PM
Ok, even if the cooperation is formal, it means you are cooperating with stealing cells, not abortion.  If some mad scientist drugged me and stole my kidney, that's not murder.  If he stole my kidney and THEN killed me, then murder is a second sin, on top of stealing my kidney.
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If the fetal cells have to be taken from a live baby, then how is murder part of this discussion?  Does the taking of cells kill the child?  Or is it survivable?  If it's survivable, then one could argue that the taking of cells is separate from the abortion.  Even if it's done by the same doctor, these are 2 different acts.
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Example:  A thief goes into a bank and shoots the teller in the foot, so that she'll open the vault and let him take $.  The thief gets the money and before he leaves, he decides to shoot her dead, just for fun.  The thief's buddies that take part in the stolen $ are (arguably) not guilty for the murder because it wasn't essential to the robbery.  His buddies are only guilty for taking part in the theft.  The murder was the sole decision of the thief.

The vaccine is predicated upon murder (not removing a kidney while you were drugged).

Its not the same thing:

If I steal money from an old lady, then give it to my wife before I go to jail, and she knows how I got the money, but decides to keep it and benefit from it anyway, then her consent to my crime is formal, and she shares in my sin (i.e., theft).

More to the point:

If I kill an old lady in order to steal her money, then give it to my wife before I go to jail, and she knows how I got the money, but decides to keep it and benefit from it anyway, then her consent to my crime (i.e., theft AND murder) is formal, and she shares in my sins.

Is this not correct?

In any case, if you would concede the cooperation in evil is formal, then every manual on moral theology will tell you it is NEVER permissible to cooperate in it.

That's why the SSPX will have to trump this argument (of Fr's Copenhagen and Wolfe), or reverse their position.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Matthew on December 15, 2020, 12:33:53 PM
The vaccine is predicated upon murder (not removing a kidney while you were drugged).
Its not the same thing:

If I steal money from an old lady, then give it to my wife before I go to jail, and she knows how I got the money, but decides to keep it and benefit from it anyway, then her consent to my crime is formal, and she shares in my sin (i.e., theft).

More to the point:

If I kill an old lady in order to steal her money, then give it to my wife before I go to jail, and she knows how I got the money, but decides to keep it and benefit from it anyway, then her consent to my crime (i.e., theft AND murder) is formal, and she shares in my sins.

Is this not correct?

Yes.

And this whole scamdemic stinks to high heaven. You need to look into Bill Gates, the patents he has, his projects and goals, etc. You also need to look into the "Fourth Industrial Revolution", the World Economic Summit, Klaus Schwab, and "The Great Reset".

This vaccine is NOT what it claims to be. This whole discussion is academic.

IF IF IF IF

- there was a real dangerous plague loose on the world ("pandemic")
- it claimed the lives of many victims, not just those on death's door
- there was no treatment or cure
- it was usually fatal
- a vaccine was feasible or possible, and was developed normally
- vaccines worked, and didn't cause worse problems than the diseases they purport to cure
- the Pharma/Vaccine industry was trustworthy
- said industry didn't get a free pass from government(s) for "immunity from all lawsuits"
- patents/vaccines/war games for THIS VERY PANDEMIC weren't run and prepared for a few months before the "pandemic" started!

Then we might be having this discussion.

And if I had wheels, I'd be a bicycle!
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Seraphina on December 15, 2020, 12:37:38 PM
And yet these 4 NO bishops remain silent regarding other vaccines that use fetal cells....like the MMR.  
For a time, Kraft Foods utilized abortive fetal cell lines in the development or making of their flavored coffee creamers.  I believe they stopped, but I’m pretty sure there are other food products, animal feed, and make-up/cosmetics that are guilty.  We do not hear anything about this.  
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 15, 2020, 12:39:32 PM
For a time, Kraft Foods utilized abortive fetal cell lines in the development or making of their flavored coffee creamers.  I believe they stopped, but I’m pretty sure there are other food products, animal feed, and make-up/cosmetics that are guilty.  We do not hear anything about this.  
Here's the most current list (as of July, 2020): https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/fetalproductsall.pdf 
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Matthew on December 15, 2020, 12:45:39 PM
Here's the most current list (as of July, 2020): https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/fetalproductsall.pdf
That's a mercifully short list. I was expecting a much longer list, TBH.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Pax Vobis on December 15, 2020, 12:53:13 PM

Quote
If I kill an old lady in order to steal her money, then give it to my wife before I go to jail, and she knows how I got the money, but decides to keep it and benefit from it anyway, then her consent to my crime (i.e., theft AND murder) is formal, and she shares in my sins.

The moral conclusion may be the same, but your argument is that the theft DEPENDS on the murder.  My argument is the theft happens independent of the murder, but the murder is done anyway. 
.
Again, if a thief HAS to kill someone to rob a bank, then the murder/theft are intertwined, as dependent upon one another.  But if the thief robs the bank, but kills for revenge/fun, then the theft and murder are independent acts. 
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 01:29:58 PM
Yes.

And this whole scamdemic stinks to high heaven. You need to look into Bill Gates, the patents he has, his projects and goals, etc. You also need to look into the "Fourth Industrial Revolution", the World Economic Summit, Klaus Schwab, and "The Great Reset".

This vaccine is NOT what it claims to be. This whole discussion is academic.

IF IF IF IF

- there was a real dangerous plague loose on the world ("pandemic")
- it claimed the lives of many victims, not just those on death's door
- there was no treatment or cure
- it was usually fatal
- a vaccine was feasible or possible, and was developed normally
- vaccines worked, and didn't cause worse problems than the diseases they purport to cure
- the Pharma/Vaccine industry was trustworthy
- said industry didn't get a free pass from government(s) for "immunity from all lawsuits"
- patents/vaccines/war games for THIS VERY PANDEMIC weren't run and prepared for a few months before the "pandemic" started!

Then we might be having this discussion.

And if I had wheels, I'd be a bicycle!
Well, that gets back to Sean's other point that there isn't a sufficiently grave reason to take the vaccine in the first place.  So even remote material cooperation couldn't be justified.  And I agree with the people who are saying that there is never going to be sufficiently grave reason to justify remote material cooperation in the most heinous crime of murdering a baby before it can be baptized.  It is one of the 4 crimes which cry out to heaven for vengeance.  And then to inject that baby's cells into your body so you won't lose your job?  Sorry, I don't sympathize.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 01:55:28 PM
We probably shouldn't be placing too much importance on keeping our jobs either.  More than 25% of the work force was unemployed in the great depression and they had much less infrastructure to fall back on.  We may have to be creative and resourceful.  There is a guy in Pasadena who grows enough food on a 1/5 acre suburban lot to not only feed his family but to actually make enough income (selling food to restaurants) to live comfortably.  You may not be able to afford cable tv and a cell phone.  Who cares?  You may have to home school.  You may have to wear clothes from Good Will or whatever.  Maybe sew your own clothes.  The vaccine is just the beginning.  They are not going to allow you to have a Catholic bible because it is racist/homophobic etc.  They will fire you from your job if you believe sodomy is a sin.  They are not going to be satisfied with you taking the vaccine.  They will only leave you alone if you deny Christ.  But then you lose your soul and go to hell.  So time to make a commitment now.  We're not going to join the new one-world religion even if it costs us our jobs or our lives.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: PAT317 on December 15, 2020, 01:56:37 PM
For a time, Kraft Foods utilized abortive fetal cell lines in the development or making of their flavored coffee creamers.  I believe they stopped, but I’m pretty sure there are other food products, animal feed, and make-up/cosmetics that are guilty.  We do not hear anything about this.  
.
Why did they stop?  
.
If people haven't heard about it in the past, so be it.  Once we hear about it, then we need to make moral choices.  If I'm not mistaken, the "food" (if we can call their garbage "food") producers stopped because people found out, and there was an outcry.  Does anyone think they would have stopped if everyone opposed to it said, "yes, but it's not a mortal sin to eat that food.  It's only remote material cooperation, and I can eat it based on the principle of double-effect."
.
There have been many evils going on in the world for decades, and yet, it took the blatant, brazen, in-your-face evils out in the open this year for a lot of people (including lots of non-Catholics) to finally wake up to it.  What people did in the past before they became aware of certain evils - nothing can be done about that.  What we do in the future, once we know of them, is another matter.  

e.g. I know avid pro-lifers (one might say, professional pro-lifers) who as of a few years ago were surprised when I told them there were aborted fetal cells in vaccines.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: PAT317 on December 15, 2020, 01:59:18 PM
We probably shouldn't be placing too much importance on keeping our jobs either.  More than 25% of the work force was unemployed in the great depression and they had much less infrastructure to fall back on.  We may have to be creative and resourceful.  There is a guy in Pasadena who grows enough food on a 1/5 acre suburban lot to not only feed his family but to actually make enough income (selling food to restaurants) to live comfortably.  You may not be able to afford cable tv and a cell phone.  Who cares?  You may have to home school.  You may have to wear clothes from Good Will or whatever.  Maybe sew your own clothes.  The vaccine is just the beginning.  They are not going to allow you to have a Catholic bible because it is racist/homophobic etc.  They will fire you from your job if you believe sodomy is a sin.  They are not going to be satisfied with you taking the vaccine.  They will only leave you alone if you deny Christ.  But then you lose your soul and go to hell.  So time to make a commitment now.  We're not going to join the new one-world religion even if it costs us our jobs or our lives.
Another excellent post, CM!


Perhaps related (or not!):  Comments of Bp. Strickland of TX:

“I think we should all resist any mandates of vaccines, because a mandatory vaccine is taking our God-given freedom away to make those choices for ourselves.  Certainly, I understand that companies and states are under a lot of pressure, but I would encourage people of faith to really push back on any mandating of vaccines … I think we need to resist that."

Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Mr G on December 15, 2020, 02:06:04 PM
.... The vaccine is just the beginning.  They are not going to allow you to have a Catholic bible because it is racist/homophobic etc.  They will fire you from your job if you believe sodomy is a sin.  They are not going to be satisfied with you taking the vaccine.  They will only leave you alone if you deny Christ.  But then you lose your soul and go to hell.  So time to make a commitment now.  We're not going to join the new one-world religion even if it costs us our jobs or our lives.
This is correct. If only half of Trad Catholics were to realize this, then we would be able to start resisting these evil plots now and see some results. But if we do nothing then it will not take too long before we are sitting in our prison cell, or hiding in the forest wishing we stood up against these criminals when we had a chance.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: PAT317 on December 15, 2020, 02:08:45 PM
This is correct. If only half of Trad Catholics were to realize this, then we would be able to start resisting these evil plots now and see some results. But if we do nothing then it will not take too long before we are sitting in our prison cell, or hiding in the forest wishing we stood up against these criminals when we had a chance.
Yes.  It seems like some are waiting for Big Brother to say, "Deny Jesus Christ, or we'll kill you!", but comply with everything up to that point. The devil learned long ago to be a little more subtle than that.  

Quote
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn:

“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have
been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make
an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to
say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as
for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire
city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror
at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase,
but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up
in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes,
hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very
quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and,
notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have
ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more
– we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply
deserved everything that happened afterward.”
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Carissima on December 15, 2020, 02:20:56 PM
Yes.  It seems like some are waiting for Big Brother to say, "Deny Jesus Christ, or we'll kill you!", but comply with everything up to that point. The devil learned long ago to be a little more subtle than that.  
It’s like the ‘pinch’ of incense. 
Sounds like a lot of the arguments here are whether it’s a pinch, a cup or bucket of incense being offered. Why have so many forgotten it only took a ‘pinch’? Why is so much thought given to how much? Or what brand? Or the exact ingredients of? Or who gives it? And so on..
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Mr G on December 15, 2020, 02:42:08 PM
It’s like the ‘pinch’ of incense.
Sounds like a lot of the arguments here are whether it’s a pinch, a cup or bucket of incense being offered. Why have so many forgotten it only took a ‘pinch’? Why is so much thought given to how much? Or what brand? Or the exact ingredients of? Or who gives it? And so on..
I suspect it is because it is easier to find a loop-hole to compromise with what everyone agrees is wrong and live a "new-normal" life, rather than take some sort of physical action that will be hard, uncomfortable, costly in time and money or (depending on the action) dangerous.

For starters, I recommend everyone print this and give to your sheriff: Microsoft Word - Sheriffs Handbook (nationallibertyalliance.org) (https://www.nationallibertyalliance.org/sites/default/files/sheriffs_handbook.pdf) For those that are brave, it is better to meet the sheriff in person with a small group of supporters.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Pax Vobis on December 15, 2020, 03:24:56 PM

Quote
Sounds like a lot of the arguments here are whether it’s a pinch, a cup or bucket of incense being offered. Why have so many forgotten it only took a ‘pinch’? Why is so much thought given to how much? Or what brand? Or the exact ingredients of? Or who gives it?

These are complex questions.  A pinch of incense is a sin against Faith; a vaccine is a sin against the natural law.  Not apples-oranges.
.
I reiterate my "3rd Problem".  If a vaccine is a moral cooperation with the abortion industry and not allowed then...why is buying slave labor goods from communist china not a cooperation with atheism and catholic persecution?  The 4 bishops allow cooperation with communism, but say cooperation with abortion is a GREATER sin?  Makes no sense.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: 2Vermont on December 15, 2020, 03:46:49 PM
Are Fr’s Copenhagen and Wolf saying that the remote material cooperation argument is erroneous and inadmissible, because, since one who would take the vaccine implicitly wills to benefit from that ongoing theft/sin, and therefore this cooperation is actually direct and formal (not remote or material)?

I don’t recall either using the term “formal,” but that seems to be the implication of their argument.

This is a very strong argument, and I think the burden now shifts to those who are defending the permissibility of receiving abortive vaccines in reliance upon remote material cooperation in evil to explain how/why the ongoing theft of cells is not direct and formal cooperation.
Why don't they just come out and say it then?  So far not one traditional priest comes out and says it...WHY?
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Carissima on December 15, 2020, 04:02:41 PM
I reiterate my "3rd Problem".  If a vaccine is a moral cooperation with the abortion industry and not allowed then...why is buying slave labor goods from communist china not a cooperation with atheism and catholic persecution?  The 4 bishops allow cooperation with communism, but say cooperation with abortion is a GREATER sin?  Makes no sense.
We’re not even talking about purchasing something with our dollars, we are talking about something being injected into our own bloodstream via a needle. Along with all the other problematic ingredients on its list. 
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Tallinn Trad on December 15, 2020, 04:15:36 PM
Not even worth debating until the risk from the disease is 100 times more deadly than it is currently.

At the moment you need to be over 70 and have comorbidities or over 80 and in lower than average health to have a 5% chance of dying. So let those people take the vaccine if they wish.

There is absolutely no point in someone of 50 years old or less taking it because the risk of death for a healthy person is so small.  Why bother?

Just because idiots are wondering around in face-nappies (which accomplish nothing) it does not make the virus more dangerous.  Neither does media hype and scare stories.  Reject the brainwashing and look at the hard data.

I would not even consider an untested vaccine until the risk of death was at least 10% of those than acquired the virus.  A 90% survival rate I would take my chances.  No worse than summiting Mount Everest and plenty of rich people do that for fun and die of hypoxia on the way back down to their tent.  Add to that the human cells used to make it originally from aborted babies and it is not something anyone not close to death needs to consider.

This virus is essentially killing people who would die very soon anyway.  The old and the very infirm.  Given what Presidents hαɾɾιs and Xi may very well have in store for us we might be wishing we died of CV over the next few years.  The vaccine might leave you envying the dead.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 05:07:46 PM
Fr William Jenkins, SSPV in May 2019 rejecting the idea that Catholics can take vaccines based on fetal cell lines (first 13:30 minutes of the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGcuVgl1Eg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGcuVgl1Eg)


He refers to the following testimony from Dr Plotkin:

Plotkin excerpt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NACBHtFMllA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NACBHtFMllA)

Plotkin deposition:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiNzMmNUVHukXBG7ZdFzt7A/videos?disable_polymer=1 (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiNzMmNUVHukXBG7ZdFzt7A/videos?disable_polymer=1)


Here is the original Fr Jenkins video that they were referring to:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a80vcahaxOE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a80vcahaxOE)
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: PAT317 on December 15, 2020, 05:18:12 PM
Fr William Jenkins, SSPV in May 2019 rejecting the idea that Catholics can take vaccines based on fetal cell lines (first 13:30 minutes of the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGcuVgl1Eg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGcuVgl1Eg)


He refers to the following testimony from Dr Plotkin:

Plotkin excerpt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NACBHtFMllA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NACBHtFMllA)

Plotkin deposition:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiNzMmNUVHukXBG7ZdFzt7A/videos?disable_polymer=1 (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiNzMmNUVHukXBG7ZdFzt7A/videos?disable_polymer=1)
In case Plotkin disappears from youtube:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/b4R89lAe3gs/
https://www.bitchute.com/search/?query=stanley%20plotkin&kind=video


(https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/te1/1/28/1f60b.png)   Wow, this discussion really makes me want to go get shot up with dozens of these things!
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 05:26:37 PM
Even if you a firmly convinced that taking the shot is merely remote material cooperation, how can you justify it if there is no grave circuмstance which would warrant taking it.  Would you actually risk your life (on an untested medicine) in order to keep your job?  Really?  But you would inject a murdered baby's cells into your body in order to keep your job?  We have to take a stand now.  A few years from now will be too late.  We have to make these people pay the piper.  They are murdering babies.  We put nαzιs to death even though they broke none of their own laws.  You can argue about whether they were actually guilty of any crimes but if the nαzιs were murdering babies legally according to their own laws, they certainly deserved to be put to death for having violated the natural law.  And that's what we have in this country.  We shouldn't be cooperating with them in any way.  Rather we should be rounding them up and putting THEM to death.  And as far as not wanting the cure to produce more disorder than the disease, how much more disordered does it have to get before we realize that there is no public order?  Fake vaccine, fake pandemic, fake news, fake election, fake lockdowns, fake masks.  There is very little order left.  Maybe it's not worth preserving?  Lance the infection to make it heal faster.  A little pain now to avoid a much greater pain (and maybe death) in the future.  And at this point we don't even have to take up arms.  We could get away with simple non-compliance and that would really help to bring these people down.  But if we keep waiting, we are going to be faced with an absolute need of violent resistance.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: forlorn on December 15, 2020, 07:45:58 PM
It seems like everyone of good character knows from a moral or even instinctual basis that this vaccine is bad news, but explaining why in terms of moral theology is much harder. The answer's out there for sure, but a lot of very weak explanations have been given heretofore. 
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 15, 2020, 08:01:59 PM
It seems like everyone of good character knows from a moral or even instinctual basis that this vaccine is bad news, but explaining why in terms of moral theology is much harder. The answer's out there for sure, but a lot of very weak explanations have been given heretofore.

Fr. Wolfe’s is the best so far, and in my mind, shifts the burden to the “remote materialists” to defend their position against his “continuous theft” argument and what amounts to formal cooperation.

I don’t think the SSPX will be able to escape his argument, but they may ignore it.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 08:06:25 PM
It seems like everyone of good character knows from a moral or even instinctual basis that this vaccine is bad news, but explaining why in terms of moral theology is much harder. The answer's out there for sure, but a lot of very weak explanations have been given heretofore.
If you watch the first 13 minutes of the Fr Jenkins video (the one at the top of my post above), you will see that when he thought the vaccine was based on one abortion 50 years ago, he thought it would be remote material cooperation.  But when he learned that these vaccines need ongoing abortions in order to develop each new vaccine (which is confirmed by the research of Pamela Acker, see the link to her interview above), Fr Jenkins then changed his position and said that it would be an immoral formal cooperation with evil to take a vaccine which has been developed with aborted baby flesh.  Bishop Williamson changed his position when he heard the argument of the NO clergy who also pointed out the ongoing use of aborted baby flesh.  Fr. McKenna thinks that it was just one abortion 50 years ago so that's why he says it is remote material cooperation.  So it all depends on whether you believe these pharma corps are continuing to use new aborted baby flesh.  And we have good reason to believe they are given Project Veritas' expose of Planned Parenthood in which the PP execs admitted that the baby flesh market is lucrative.  Every clergyman who admits this ongoing baby flesh industry says that taking the baby flesh vaccine is immoral.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Clemens Maria on December 15, 2020, 08:15:16 PM
And, yes, as Sean just pointed out, there is even debate on whether it is actually remote material cooperation in the case where it was one abortion 50 years ago.  Those cell lines are the DNA of that murdered baby.  Even the derived material is the baby's DNA.  And the DNA is IN THE VACCINE that you put in your body.  Pamela Acker says there is more baby DNA in the shot than there is viral material.  So you are shooting baby flesh into your body.  That flesh should be buried.  Stop victimizing this poor child!
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: PAT317 on December 15, 2020, 08:52:38 PM
And, yes, as Sean just pointed out, there is even debate on whether it is actually remote material cooperation in the case where it was one abortion 50 years ago. ...
.
Bishop Strickland said this: 

Quote
But to me the bottom line is, if they’ve used unborn children, and they talk about ‘oh, it’s remote or whatever’, I’m not sure when you say ‘Okay; it was long enough ago when you killed this child that it doesn’t matter anymore.'  I just disagree with that.  And I know I'm in the minority, but I think we’ve all got to really think about that …I believe that part of the reason in my lifetime we haven’t made real great headway with changing hearts to believe that abortion is taking a human life is because we’re compromised in how we deal with it.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Benzel on December 16, 2020, 02:18:19 AM
Fr. Wolfe’s is the best so far, and in my mind, shifts the burden to the “remote materialists” to defend their position against his “continuous theft” argument and what amounts to formal cooperation.

I don’t think the SSPX will be able to escape his argument, but they may ignore it.
Keeping alive cell lines obtained through abortion constitutes another sin: abuse of tissues from an aborted fetus. And who commits that sin? The pharmaceutical laboratory that uses those cells. The people who use the vaccines of that laboratory cooperate formally or materially to the sins of the pharmaceutical laboratories. But if you are looking for an approved text of moral theology that teaches that there can be no remote material cooperation regarding actual sin, you will not find it. "Remote" doesn't just refer to a distance of time.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: 2Vermont on December 16, 2020, 06:55:56 AM
From McHugh and Callan.  Note the bolded.  :

976. Coöperation in Religious Activities.—A third danger of making external profession of a false religion is coöperation in activities whose tendency or principles are erroneous (see 944). Coöperation in a false religion is of two kinds, immediate and mediate. (a) Coöperation is immediate, when one takes a part in an act of a false religion itself (e.g., by worshipping an idol). This kind of coöperation was discussed above, as participation or communication (see 956-975). (b) Coöperation is mediate, when one takes part, not in an act of a false religion, but in some other act which is a preparation for a help to the act of a false religion. This is the kind of coöperation we are now considering.

977. Mediate coöperation is of various kinds. (a) It is proximate or remote, according as the preparation or help afforded to false religion is near to or far from the religious act. Thus, to make ready the lights, incense, flowers, etc. in front of an idol is proximate coöperation; to give money to an idolatrous priest or bonze is remote coöperation. (b) Mediate coöperation is material or formal, according as the intention of the coöperator is to share in or help error itself, or merely to help those who are in error, while disapproving of their error. Thus, if one prepares a pagan temple for worship or contributes money towards its maintenance because one's sympathies are with its idolatry, one's coöperation is formal; if one does these things only in order to make a living or to show friendship to an individual pagan, one's coöperation is material. It is clear that formal coöperation is a grave sin against faith, and hence we shall speak now only of material coöperation.

So, when we refer to the material/formal distinctions laid out by moral theologians, we see that material cooperation can be applied even to matters pertaining to the sin of idolatry.  
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 16, 2020, 07:12:04 AM
From McHugh and Callan.  Note the bolded.  :

976. Coöperation in Religious Activities.—A third danger of making external profession of a false religion is coöperation in activities whose tendency or principles are erroneous (see 944). Coöperation in a false religion is of two kinds, immediate and mediate. (a) Coöperation is immediate, when one takes a part in an act of a false religion itself (e.g., by worshipping an idol). This kind of coöperation was discussed above, as participation or communication (see 956-975). (b) Coöperation is mediate, when one takes part, not in an act of a false religion, but in some other act which is a preparation for a help to the act of a false religion. This is the kind of coöperation we are now considering.

977. Mediate coöperation is of various kinds. (a) It is proximate or remote, according as the preparation or help afforded to false religion is near to or far from the religious act. Thus, to make ready the lights, incense, flowers, etc. in front of an idol is proximate coöperation; to give money to an idolatrous priest or bonze is remote coöperation. (b) Mediate coöperation is material or formal, according as the intention of the coöperator is to share in or help error itself, or merely to help those who are in error, while disapproving of their error. Thus, if one prepares a pagan temple for worship or contributes money towards its maintenance because one's sympathies are with its idolatry, one's coöperation is formal; if one does these things only in order to make a living or to show friendship to an individual pagan, one's coöperation is material. It is clear that formal coöperation is a grave sin against faith, and hence we shall speak now only of material coöperation.

So, when we refer to the material/formal distinctions laid out by moral theologians, we see that material cooperation can be applied even to matters pertaining to the sin of idolatry.  

I am forming a stronger conviction that the argument of Fr. Wolfe has made the remote material cooperation argument irrelevant (ie., to get back to it, the remote materialists must disprove the “continuous theft” and formal argument).

Supposing that could be done, and the conversation devolve back into the remote material domain, I would need to see the double effect standard satisfied (as must always happen in order to defer to the direct voluntary).

And finally, supposing that could happen (and it can’t, which is why the remote materialists are avoiding any mention of it), they would still need to navigate the issue of exceedingly grave scandal mentioned by Fr. Selegny.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: 2Vermont on December 16, 2020, 07:31:53 AM
I am forming a stronger conviction that the argument of Fr. Wolfe has made the remote material cooperation argument irrelevant (ie., to get back to it, the remote materialists must disprove the “continuous theft” and formal argument).

Supposing that could be done, and the conversation devolve back into the remote material domain, I would need to see the double effect standard satisfied (as must always happen in order to defer to the direct voluntary).

And finally, supposing that could happen (and it can’t, which is why the remote materialists are avoiding any mention of it), they would still need to navigate the issue of exceedingly grave scandal mentioned by Fr. Selegny.
So far, I have yet to see the use of the term "formal cooperation in sin".  The quote I gave from McHugh and Callan shows that it is possible to have material cooperation even in matters of idolatry which is much worse than theft.        

As for double effect, I thought we already discussed that it is irrelevant after the fact for material cooperation here:

https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/cardinalsbishops-formally-repudiate-2005-vaccine-docs/msg725089/#msg725089

Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 16, 2020, 08:17:25 AM
So far, I have yet to see the use of the term "formal cooperation in sin".  The quote I gave from McHugh and Callan shows that it is possible to have material cooperation even in matters of idolatry which is much worse than theft.        

As for double effect, I thought we already discussed that it is irrelevant after the fact for material cooperation here:

https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/cardinalsbishops-formally-repudiate-2005-vaccine-docs/msg725089/#msg725089

I pointed out the term is not used, but the logic of the argument and conclusion seems to be based on it (“a rose by any other name...”).  And the same McHugh-Callan (late 1950’s) manual acknowledges formal cooperation is never permitted (that “never” would include sins less serious than idolatry).

Note also, Fr. Wolfe is not talking about theft alone, but theft predicated upon murder (ie., see my “stealing money from grandma” example earlier in the thread).

As for double effect being irrelevant when having recourse to the direct voluntary, which of the following criteria are you not concerned with:

1) The object be good or indifferent (ie., receiving stolen property obtained by murder);

2) The intention must be good (to knowingly benefit from the double sin is to become an accomplice in it);

3) The good effect cannot come from the bad effect (clear fail: doing evil that good may come by continuous theft);

4) Proportionality: Can I become complicit in murder and theft to keep my job?  Or to fly on a plane?  If my boss or governor ordered me to desecrate a dead body or grave, I could do it to keep my job?

To get around all this, and contrary to what the old SSPX and Fr. Scott taught, can you tell me why double effect need not be satisfied when deferring to the direct voluntary?

Ps: As regards the late 1950’s McHugh manual, did you know that many moralist, after WWII, began to shift their thinking and morals to focus more on quality of life?  I attended a conference with Fr. Is cars (SSPX seminary professor for 25+ years) on end of life issues, where he explained this trend broke out at V2.  But if it broke out there, it was certainly present in the minds of some moralists in the 40’s-50’s, which is why I’m suspicious of a manual in 1958.  In the words of Fr. Is cars, “If you think I’m going to accept some doctrine just because it has the imprimatur from some American Bishop in the 1930’s, you’re crazy.”

That said, I do not understand your point “after the fact.”  Could you refresh my memory?
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Pax Vobis on December 16, 2020, 09:03:10 AM
Quote
Note also, Fr. Wolfe is not talking about theft alone, but theft predicated upon murder (ie., see my “stealing money from grandma” example earlier in the thread).

I really wish we had some catholic scientist who could answer the questions of the vaccine process.  For me, it's hard to create an accurate analogy of all the sinful activities in order to properly analyze the morality of each.  If the debate has now shifted to theft of fetal cells, then the important question is:  Does the taking of fetal cells ALWAYS cause death, or is it survivable?
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This is the best analogy I can come up with:  Suppose you have an international criminal ring who's main work is to αssαssιnαtҽ people for money.  75% of their business is to sneak around and kill rich people.  Most of their customers are the family members or business partners of these rich people, who want inheritance money or they want to own the business partnership fully.  
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Now, a smaller part of this criminal ring's business (25%) is to kidnap people and steal their organs, which they then sell to pharmacies who use these organs to make a drug that cures a specific kidney/lung/heart disease.  Sometimes they steal kidneys, sometimes hearts, sometimes lungs, etc.  The theft of 1 kidney or 1 lung does not kill a person, so this criminal ring's theft of this kind is not murder, even though 1) 75% of this criminal ring's business is assassination, and 2) they may still decide to kill the victim after taking a kidney/lung so the victim can't call the cops.  Obviously, the theft of a heart causes the murder of the victim, but a kidney/lung does not (unless you take both kidneys or both lungs).  But we'll assume they just take 1.
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So, here are my questions:
1.  Does a person who knowingly receives a "life saving"** drug made from this criminal ring's activities participate in the 75% of the criminal's "murder industry", or just the 25% of organ theft activities?  I would say just the organ theft part.
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** We'll assume for argument that covid vaccines are "life saving" as that's the established medical/political/social lie of the day.**
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2.  If the theft of a kidney/lung does not cause death, then how can one be involved with murder?  If the criminal ring decides to kill the person after stealing their organs, that's their decision, but murder is not an effect of the organ theft, but a separate sin.
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I wish I knew more about this vaccine process.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: B from A on December 16, 2020, 09:13:33 AM
I really wish we had some catholic scientist who could answer the questions of the vaccine process.  For me, it's hard to create an accurate analogy of all the sinful activities in order to properly analyze the morality of each.  If the debate has now shifted to theft of fetal cells, then the important question is:  Does the taking of fetal cells ALWAYS cause death, or is it survivable?
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I wish I knew more about this vaccine process.
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Pax, have you listened to the explanation by Marcella Piper-Terry, posted many times on these boards?  Or the one by Pam Acker, also posted & recommended here?
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And do you seriously think the devils that create these vaccines take a living pre-term baby, harvest his cells, and then put him in an incubator to maximize his chances of survival?  Seriously?  
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Listen to and read the copious information folks have provided here in these threads, please.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: choakley on December 16, 2020, 10:28:55 AM
(https://gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/060/740/368/original/122c64641eed5f20.jpeg)
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Mr G on December 16, 2020, 10:40:23 AM
I really wish we had some catholic scientist who could answer the questions of the vaccine process.  For me, it's hard to create an accurate analogy of all the sinful activities in order to properly analyze the morality of each.  If the debate has now shifted to theft of fetal cells, then the important question is:  Does the taking of fetal cells ALWAYS cause death, or is it survivable?
....
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I wish I knew more about this vaccine process.
In that case, I strongly suggest you contact Catholic Scientist, Pam Acker. But first you should read her book and watch any video interviews of her on these subjects. Then as you obtain some preliminary background information on the vaccine development and processes, you can then ask Hugh Owen of the Kolbe Center to forward your questions.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Pax Vobis on December 16, 2020, 10:53:24 AM
Dear all, please don't be scandalized at these questions.  If you read the opening thread, I said the purpose of this thread is NOT to debate the morality of these vaccines (which are obviously immoral).  The purpose is to debate the GRAVITY of immorality.  If you don't understand the difference, or don't have the patience to theorize, then please leave the thread. 
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: 2Vermont on December 16, 2020, 10:55:41 AM
Sean, 

I can't spend more time right now as I am working, but I put the link regarding "after the fact" in my previous post.


Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Pax Vobis on December 16, 2020, 10:57:22 AM
Quote
And do you seriously think the devils that create these vaccines take a living pre-term baby, harvest his cells, and then put him in an incubator to maximize his chances of survival?

But could they keep the baby alive?  That's the question.  If a child can survive the taking of these cells, then murder/abortion is not a result of cell harvesting, but a separate immoral act.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 16, 2020, 10:58:29 AM
Sean,

I can't spend more time right now as I am working, but I put the link regarding "after the fact" in my previous post.
Ok, I will go back and check it out, but the argument on the table now is not “after the fact,” but “continuous theft” (ie., present now).
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: 2Vermont on December 16, 2020, 11:00:33 AM
Ok, I will go back and check it out, but the argument on the table now is not “after the fact,” but “continuous theft” (ie., present now).
I'd like to see moral principles that deal with "continuous sins".  The "after the fact" deals with applying double effect after the material cooperation is determined.  There is no need to do so once it is determined the cooperation is material.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 16, 2020, 11:02:16 AM
I'd like to see moral principles that deal with "continuous sins".  The "after the fact" deals with applying double effect after the material cooperation is determined.  There is no need to do so once it is determined the cooperation is material.
Can you explain why?

If you are correct, it means we need not concern ourselves with:

1) Whether the act is good/indifferent or evil

2) Whether we can do evil that good may come

3) Whether the intention is good or evil

4) Whether or not there is a good at least equal to the evil.

I just can’t get my mind around how those questions become irrelevant to the morality of a human act (particularly one which cooperated in evil).

Ps: Can you find anything is a traditional manual on remote material cooperation which distinguishes between “in the present” cooperation from “after the fact” cooperation (and why double effect should apply for the former, but not the latter)?
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: B from A on December 16, 2020, 11:26:17 AM
But could they keep the baby alive?  That's the question.  If a child can survive the taking of these cells, then murder/abortion is not a result of cell harvesting, but a separate immoral act.
You did not answer my first question:
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Pax, have you listened to the explanation by Marcella Piper-Terry, posted many times on these boards?  Or the one by Pam Acker, also posted & recommended here?
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...
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Listen to and read the copious information folks have provided here in these threads, please.
If you haven't, please explain why you have not.   If, as you claim, you wish you knew more about this vaccine process, why have you not taken advantage of these resources?  
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Pax Vobis on December 16, 2020, 01:21:02 PM
I started this thread a few days ago.  I've not yet had time to listen to hours and hours of videos of people talking about vaccines, which may or may not address the questions I have.  If anyone can point to an article, which I can read much quicker than hours of videos, then I'll get to it.  In the meantime, I'll debate and maybe someone who has done all this research can give me a summary.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Carissima on December 16, 2020, 03:27:40 PM
I started this thread a few days ago.  I've not yet had time to listen to hours and hours of videos of people talking about vaccines, which may or may not address the questions I have.  If anyone can point to an article, which I can read much quicker than hours of videos, then I'll get to it.  In the meantime, I'll debate and maybe someone who has done all this research can give me a summary.
From the Walvax-2 article I posted a couple of weeks ago:
https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/fr-chazal-on-sspxcovid19-vaccinations-article/270/ (https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/fr-chazal-on-sspxcovid19-vaccinations-article/270/)

“Human diploid cell vaccines (HDCVs) have been licensed all over the world. Many studies have demonstrated superior immunogenicity and safety of HDCVs relative to those using any other tissue culture, such as hamster kidney cells or vero cell vaccines.9 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4526020/?fbclid=IwAR1rPCP2TDZibTB0ujNiur_6rt4gZDJcWMYx3FxwMx_7EVGjvTd4sXliwZc#cit0009) The WHO recommends HDCS as the safest cell culture substrate for the production of viral vaccines10 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4526020/?fbclid=IwAR1rPCP2TDZibTB0ujNiur_6rt4gZDJcWMYx3FxwMx_7EVGjvTd4sXliwZc#cit0010) and consequently they have become the preferred cell substrate for vaccine production worldwide.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4526020/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4526020/)


If you want to know more about how vaccines are made today then read this article. The most disturbing fact here is that babies are born alive and then experimented on to obtain fresh specimens. 
Sadly this is normal to these Science worshipping monsters. 
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Yeti on December 16, 2020, 08:44:54 PM
We probably shouldn't be placing too much importance on keeping our jobs either.  More than 25% of the work force was unemployed in the great depression and they had much less infrastructure to fall back on.
Just curious, what do you do for a living? Or are you retired?
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Yeti on December 16, 2020, 09:00:13 PM
[From the article by Fr. Copenhagen]
Although the vast majority if not all of the cells currently used did not
physically constitute part of the child’s original body, these cells still belong to the child.
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This is so bizarre. Cells that were never part of a human body now belong to someone who is dead? How can a dead person own anything? How do you restore property to a dead person?
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Quote
They are a living remnant of the child’s life in this world. If they are not the child’s cells then whose cell’s are they? Is it possible to stretch jargon so far as to say that these are no one’s cells?

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Huh? I suppose they belong to the lab, but I don't see what this has to do with anything, certainly not with someone who gets an injection against a flu virus.
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Quote
No person donating their tissue for cell culture and knowingly encountering the resultant cells in a lab would identify them as anything other than “my DNA, my cells.”

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Speak for yourself. I would certainly never say anything so sentimental and bizarre. I would definitely not consider such cells to be my property, or part of my body, which they obviously are not. I would not consider it immoral for anyone to use them for experimental purposes, nor would I care particularly what became of them, since they have no human soul and are not, and never had been, part of my body, and what happens to them has not the slightest effect on me. This entire example is truly weird.
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Quote
The child has been silenced, the parents have forfeited by abortion any right of consent to respectful scientific use of the body, the scientists and patent holders have no right to possess or use the cells: these human remains belong to God, must be respectfully reposed, and it is not for Caesar to say otherwise.

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Says who? If people want to make claims like this, they need to provide some sort of argument. Otherwise, what is gratuitously asserted can be gratuitously denied.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Incredulous on December 16, 2020, 09:10:03 PM
Ok, even if the cooperation is formal, it means you are cooperating with stealing cells, not abortion.  If some mad scientist drugged me and stole my kidney, that's not murder.  If he stole my kidney and THEN killed me, then murder is a second sin, on top of stealing my kidney.
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If the fetal cells have to be taken from a live baby, then how is murder part of this discussion?  Does the taking of cells kill the child?  Or is it survivable?  If it's survivable, then one could argue that the taking of cells is separate from the abortion.  Even if it's done by the same doctor, these are 2 different acts.
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Example:  A thief goes into a bank and shoots the teller in the foot, so that she'll open the vault and let him take $.  The thief gets the money and before he leaves, he decides to shoot her dead, just for fun.  The thief's buddies that take part in the stolen $ are (arguably) not guilty for the murder because it wasn't essential to the robbery.  His buddies are only guilty for taking part in the theft.

 The murder was the sole decision of the thief.

Please back up a minute and explain to us what is the technical function of fetal cells in a vaccine?

How does the medical industry explain their purpose?

What do they do?
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: andy on December 16, 2020, 09:49:37 PM
But could they keep the baby alive?  That's the question.  If a child can survive the taking of these cells, then murder/abortion is not a result of cell harvesting, but a separate immoral act.
Maybe, but extracting fetal cell from undeveloped person is recipe for a disaster. Hight risk at least. 
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: PAT317 on December 16, 2020, 09:52:51 PM
Quote
Although the vast majority if not all of the cells currently used did not physically constitute part of the child’s original body, these cells still belong to the child.

This is so bizarre. Cells that were never part of a human body now belong to someone who is dead? 
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Dr. Joseph Mercola:
Quote
The Nonsensical ‘Clone’ Defense

The claim that fetal cells are not used in vaccine development because they are clones of the original is perhaps the most ludicrous justification used by fact checkers.25 That’s like saying your 20-year-old or 40-year-old body is no longer your body because all the cells are mere copies of the cells found in the original fetus that grew inside your mother.

If the cells in your body are still you, then the cells in the petri dish are still that of the original fetus that was aborted.

Cells grow and multiply naturally. The cells in your adult body are no longer the original individual cells of you as a fetus. They are in essence “clones” of the originals. They’ve been growing and multiplying, dying and being replaced, with each passing moment from the time of your conception when a sperm entered an egg.

There’s virtually no difference between cells growing and multiplying indefinitely in a petri dish and cells growing and multiplying in your body during your lifetime. If the cells in your body are still you, then the cells in the petri dish are still that of the original fetus that was aborted.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: andy on December 16, 2020, 09:57:27 PM
The purpose is to debate the GRAVITY of immorality.
This is an excellent point. I still maintain, that those fetal cell lines, are in fact artificially kept alive body pieces of specific individuals. Almost as same as frozen embryos. They are ALIVE. The cooperation with the abortion is very remote if in fact at all present (be definition, cooperate - means to be part of a cause). The cooperation with dishonoring that human body, which happens constantly is probably closer than we think.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Yeti on December 17, 2020, 08:12:10 AM
Quote
The Nonsensical ‘Clone’ Defense

The claim that fetal cells are not used in vaccine development because they are clones of the original is perhaps the most ludicrous justification used by fact checkers.25 That’s like saying your 20-year-old or 40-year-old body is no longer your body because all the cells are mere copies of the cells found in the original fetus that grew inside your mother.

If the cells in your body are still you, then the cells in the petri dish are still that of the original fetus that was aborted.

Cells grow and multiply naturally. The cells in your adult body are no longer the original individual cells of you as a fetus. They are in essence “clones” of the originals. They’ve been growing and multiplying, dying and being replaced, with each passing moment from the time of your conception when a sperm entered an egg.

There’s virtually no difference between cells growing and multiplying indefinitely in a petri dish and cells growing and multiplying in your body during your lifetime. If the cells in your body are still you, then the cells in the petri dish are still that of the original fetus that was aborted.
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I think this guy's reality check has bounced. He's a medical doctor??! And he can speak this kind of nonsense? Wow, I'm not letting him cut into me.

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Um, the difference between cells growing in a petri dish and cells in a living human being is that one is part of a human being and the other is not. One is informed by a human soul and the other is not. Yes, your cells at the age of 40 are different cells from the ones you had when you were born, but they are all part of your body. Cells multiplying in a petri dish are not part of a human body. They have no human soul. They are not a human being. Yes, they are part of the building blocks of a human being, but that does not make them a human being. You don't even need to be a doctor to understand that cells from a human being living in a petri dish are not a human being. All you need is common sense. Bbut this guy thinks there's "virtually no difference" between that and a live human body.
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Quote
If the cells in your body are still you, then the cells in the petri dish are still that of the original fetus that was aborted.

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Please tell me this is some sort of weird joke? Cells that have been removed from a human body are no long part of a human body.
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Quote
The cells in your adult body are no longer the original individual cells of you as a fetus. They are in essence “clones” of the originals. They’ve been growing and multiplying, dying and being replaced, with each passing moment from the time of your conception when a sperm entered an egg.

There’s virtually no difference between cells growing and multiplying indefinitely in a petri dish and cells growing and multiplying in your body during your lifetime. If the cells in your body are still you, then the cells in the petri dish are still that of the original fetus that was aborted.

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Virtually no difference?! So there's virtually no difference between cutting a finger off an arm that has been severed, but which is being kept alive artificially, and cutting off a person's finger? That's what his argument leads to. What a wild ride this one was.
Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: josefamenendez on December 17, 2020, 08:47:14 AM
When these fetal tissue vaccines are taken, they cause a great auto-immune response. That is why the incidence of diseases such as Crohn's, IBS , scleroderma, eczema, severe allergies (peanuts), certain types of arthritis, many neurological diseases such as MS, guilliane barre, hypothyroidism ( Hashimoto) probable autism and sterility. Many more of these chronic conditions have skyrocketed in the age of fetal cell injection. Of course linkage to vaccines is denied ,but the direct relationship of it is in our faces.

Why? Because fetal cell transfer in the vaccines is a literal transplant, transferring cells from one human to another, without the benefit of anti-rejection drugs to combat the side effects. In truth the reactions may be significantly less acute than a large organ rejection, with chronic low level auto-immunity that is the cause for a lifetime of illness.  The baby cell DNA is NOT supposed to be in your body and will manifest rejection in some way at some point. 

In truth, it is objectively the baby's cells, not some neutral far distanced occurrence that has shed it's connection to it's rightful owner- the child ( living when harvested; murdered soon after) . Otherwise why would these living cells cause such a rejection/reaction?

Title: Re: Vaccines - Devil's Advocate
Post by: Incredulous on December 17, 2020, 09:03:22 PM

The “sorcerers” have tricked us into accepting the “mainlining” of dead foreign bodies into our bloodstreams that will naturally be rejected, like an organ transplant.

When you inject dead foreign tissue, recombinant DNA and other toxic substances straight into your bloodstream, you’ve bypassed your body’s natural defenses.  

Vaccine poisoning is a huge medical issue that has been covered-up by the ʝʊdɛօ-masonic media.

They create new diseases, names and treatments from the illnesses erupting from vaccines.  The goy are none the wiser.

SIDS (sudden infant death syndrome) is an example of judaic marketing.  It’s much more probable that these infants died from fatal reactions to foreign matter in vaccines.

Title: Re: ναccιnєs - Devil's Advocate
Post by: PAT317 on January 14, 2021, 09:32:36 AM
I have purchased this book VACCINATION: A Catholic Perspective - Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation (https://www.kolbecenter.org/product/vaccination-a-catholic-perspective/) and in it Pam refers to two article and one video that discuses the "PRESENT and ONGOING" aspect of it. My work computer does not allow my to get the articles but you should be able to find them here https://cogforlife.org Once there, look for the article by Fr. Wolfe and one from Fr. Copenhagen, also a video by Fr. Ripperger.
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The unborn babies used for ναccιnє development were alive at tissue extraction (https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/the-unborn-babies-used-for-ναccιnє-development-were-alive-at-tissue-extraction?utm_source=The%20John-Henry%20Westen%20Show&utm_campaign=5801b2fd27-EMAIL_TJHWS_Season2_Ep59_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b7be5a6f12-5801b2fd27-406047721)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joWZmcHhfBg&feature=emb_title