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Author Topic: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei  (Read 58483 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #235 on: February 05, 2019, 02:00:08 PM »
Benedict is saying the modernists didn't think it was necessary to allow the latin mass (i.e. force the heretic bishops to admit that the latin mass was legal) from 1969 til 1988 because (they hoped) all catholics would've accepted the new mass and the old mass would be forgotten.  He was speaking practically, not legally.

Notice, he never said that those who used/attended the latin mass from 1969 til 1988 (i.e. BEFORE THE INDULT) were illegally attending this mass, because they weren't.  And they still aren't, indult or not.

The indult only applies if you want to attend a diocesan church which is "in communion with" new-rome.  No one is prevented legally/morally from the 1962 missal by new-rome.  The only consequence is that you'll be considered "not in full communion" (i.e. not a heretic).  Which is a badge of honor and a sign you're a True Catholic.

Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #236 on: February 05, 2019, 04:15:17 PM »
PAX:

Quote
Benedict is saying the modernists didn't think it was necessary to allow the latin mass (i.e. force the heretic bishops to admit that the latin mass was legal) from 1969 til 1988 because (they hoped) all catholics would've accepted the new mass and the old mass would be forgotten.  He was speaking practically, not legally.
 

OH, excuse me! He was talking about the Modernists! And Benedict is not one? When did you see him offer even ONE public Mass according to the 1962 Missal after Summorum Pontificuм?


PAX:
Quote
Notice, he never said that those who used/attended the latin mass from 1969 til 1988 (i.e. BEFORE THE INDULT) were illegally attending this mass, because they weren't.  And they still aren't, indult or not.

Of course not. It wasn't abrogated. They hadn't thought it necessary until 1984 (First indult). Not until Summorum Pontificuм some really saw the direction the 1962 missal was going. Do you think AB Lefebvre would have kept the 1962 missal after Summorum Pontificuм? You didn't answer. Would he have accepted the 1962 missal as the "Extraordinary Form" and the Novus Ordo as the "Ordinary Form"? Or would he have been appalled and adopted another missal?

PAX:
Quote
The indult only applies if you want to attend a diocesan church which is "in communion with" new-rome.  No one is prevented legally/morally from the 1962 missal by new-rome.  The only consequence is that you'll be considered "not in full communion" (i.e. not a heretic).  Which is a badge of honor and a sign you're a True Catholic.

The "badge of honor" will go to those who saw clearly after S.P. and did not wait until it was juridically abrogated, which has to happen after the new missal according to the "new norms" is out.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #237 on: February 05, 2019, 04:51:10 PM »
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OH, excuse me! He was talking about the Modernists! And Benedict is not one?
The modernists "in charge" in 1969, of which Benedict wasn't one.  He was also a modernist, but wasn't pope in 1969.  Don't put words in my mouth.

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Of course not. It wasn't abrogated. They hadn't thought it necessary until 1984 (First indult).
THIS IS THE POINT.  The indult laws DID NOT ABROGATE THE 1962 MISSAL.  None of them did.  And IT'S STILL NOT ABROGATED.  Therefore, it is legal to use regardless of the indults or not.

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Not until Summorum Pontificuм some really saw the direction the 1962 missal was going. Do you think AB Lefebvre would have kept the 1962 missal after Summorum Pontificuм? You didn't answer.
I don't care what he would've done.  I'm not going to put words into his mouth.

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Would he have accepted the 1962 missal as the "Extraordinary Form" and the Novus Ordo as the "Ordinary Form"? Or would he have been appalled and adopted another missal?
The only people who have to accept the new mass as the "ordinary form" are those who want to be "in communion with" new-rome.  All real Trads can just ignore the indults (there is no penalty for ignoring them) and CONTINUE TO USE THE PERMISSIONS OF THE 1962 LAW, WHICH WERE NEVER ABROGATED.

Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #238 on: February 06, 2019, 12:28:20 PM »
I see the spreaders of disinformation have done their job well.

There are none so dangerous to the traditionalist cause than those who write voluminous amounts of words that confuse the unwary.

Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #239 on: March 10, 2019, 04:13:07 PM »

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The Reform of Holy Week in the Years 1951-1956
Rorate Caeli first presented the following translation of Fr. Stefano Carusi's work on the reform of Holy Week under Pope Pius XII seven years ago. As our readership has grown dramatically over that time we are compelled to bring it back and share with new readers. This translation is the work of Fr. Charles W. Johnson, a U.S. military chaplain, and one of the first priests in the Rorate Caeli Purgatorial Society:
 
THE REFORM OF HOLY WEEK IN THE YEARS 1951-1956
 FROM LITURGY TO THEOLOGY BY WAY OF THE STATEMENTS OF CERTAIN LEADING THINKERS (ANNIBALE BUGNINI, CARLO BRAGA, FERDINANDO ANTONELLI)

 
 by Stefano Carusi
 
(link to the original Italian publication)
 


Many are familiar with the Bugnini changes in Holy Week but not many understand the liturgical and theological significance of those changes. This examination by Fr. Stefano Carusi was translated from the Italian by Rorate Caeli and posted on their blog in 2010. It was posted again in 2018. Fr. Stefano Carusi covers not just what was done but why and the theological and liturgical implications of the changes. It should be examined and reflected upon by everyone concerned in restoring the purity of divine worship. If the resistance clings to the 1962 Bugnini transitional Missal they will become a non-entity in this fight, and thus, the fight to defend dogma.

In the 2010 posting of Fr. Carusi's article, this comment was posted:

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(We) should stop using Fr. Bugnini as a liturgical bogeyman and look instead at the person who formed the Commission for Liturgical Reform, gave it its mission, appointed its members, and ordered its ideas to be implemented: the same person who, in giving the First International Congress in Pastoral Liturgy (Assisi, 1956) his "whole-hearted" Apostolic Blessing, praised the liturgical movement for making "undeniable progress... both in extent and in depth" and the new decree on Holy Week for having "helped the faithful to a better understanding and closer participation in the love, suffering, and triumph of our Lord."
Anonymous poster, quoting Pope Pius XII from The Assisi Papers, Collegeville: Liturgical Press, 1957. 


Pope Pius XII overturned the dogma, 'lex orandi, lex credendi,' initiated the liturgical reform, and lined up all the key players that would give us Vatican II and the Novus Ordo. Surprising that he has not already been declared a Novus Ordo "saint."
 
It is unfortunate that has fallen to conservative Catholics to take the lead in the work of liturgical restoration while "traditional" Bugninian apologists (whether they know it or not), who hold the pope as their rule of faith, cling to the 1962 version of the liturgical reform which includes the Bugnini mutilations of Holy Week that were implemented in 1956, but that is what in fact has happened.