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Author Topic: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei  (Read 27633 times)

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Offline X

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #120 on: January 21, 2019, 08:08:34 PM »
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  • I'm alright with a little optimism. It would be terrible for many, many souls if the SSPX continued to sink. This post is cautiously optimistic that the SSPX might be rekindling old positions more in line with Archbishop Lefebvre and I don't see anything wrong with that!
    Psalm 129 is out to lunch.
    Rekindling the old positions of ABL while having doubtfully ordained diocesan priests performing marriages in SSPX chapels?
    Inconceivable!
    Accepting conciliar bishops fully committed to Vatican II and the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo taking residence at SSPX schools?
    Inconceivable!
    No, Psalm 129 is clutching at straws.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #121 on: January 21, 2019, 08:19:02 PM »
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  • Agree.  Until they stop using new-order priests/bishops altogether, the new-sspx is just using communist tactics to pacify the laity.  Actions speak louder than words.  They can quote +ABL all they want to, but if they continue to accept V2's changes, then they are moving farther and farther away from Tradition than they already are.


    Offline poche

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #122 on: January 21, 2019, 10:33:11 PM »
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  • Maybe the Psalm 129 blogger wrote a day too soon. News that the SSPX has now acquired a Conciliar bishop (reported only one day after the dissolution of Ecclesia Dei--that in itself an ominous sign, since it was yet one more 'gift' to the SSPX from His Humbleness), doesn't exactly inspire confidence that things are headed back in the right direction. Do we really think +Fellay is out of the picture now? No way. Rorate Caeli's report is correct in that the SSPX is "fast reaching full regularization by installments", and so it saddens me to see those who are holding on to false hope, even still.
    Who is this new 'conciliar bishop?'

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Offline JmJ2cents

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #124 on: January 22, 2019, 06:14:34 AM »
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  • What doesn't make sense to me is that Bennie doesn't seem to give a darn what they do, so why wait until he dies?  I mean, honestly.  Does anyone really think if they put this through while he was still alive that he was going to condemn Francis for it??  :laugh1:
    The people who think this theory of Pope Benedict being αssαssιnαtҽd are the ones who think he is still the pope and that he was coerced into resigning therefore it is null.  People like Louis Verrachio and Fr. Kramer.  They somehow want to believe he was a good pope.........


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #125 on: January 22, 2019, 12:31:27 PM »
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  • 1.  If a new hybrid 62-new mass missal is released, that doesn’t mean that the 62 missal is abrogated, unless the law specially says so.  When Paul VI issued the new mass, he didn’t abrogate the 62 missal so abrogation cannot be assumed; it must be clearly spelled out in the law.  

    2.  Even if Pope Benedict put the new hybrid missal together, since he did not issue it under his papacy, then he did not “approve” it, formally and legally speaking.  When/If a new hybrid missal is issued, it will be approved by +Francis, because he’s the pope (in theory).  It doesn’t matter when the missal was put together, it matters when the law that issues the missal is put in force.  

    You don't understand Summorum Pontificuм and its related docuмents (still in effect). Your claim that: "it matters when the law that issues the missal is put in force" is meaningless. As you can see, Benedict keeps referring to the older indults througout his own docuмents. You need to read them without prejudice. The purpose of Summorum Pontificuм was never to "liberate" the 1962 missal but to give it it's proper burial. As I mentioned before, Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in his book The Spirit of the Liturgy (published in 2000), that two rites (Novus Ordo &1962) were too difficult to manage therefore they would eventually have to be merged into one (missal). That is what he accomplished through  Summorum Pontificuм. He authorized Ecclesia Dei to make all the changes necessary to the 1962 missal so that the two "FORMS" would complement each other: " new Saints and some of the new Prefaces can and should be inserted in the old Missal and that "The “Ecclesia Dei” Commission, in contact with various bodies devoted to the usus antiquior, will study the practical possibilities in this regard".

    Regarding Summorum Pontificuм, Benedict XVI says: "I now come to the positive reason which motivated my decision to issue this Motu Proprio updating that of 1988. It is a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church."

    Those who consider the Mass a matter of mere discipline and the pope "master of the liturgy" have to accept the "new norms for the use of the Roman Liturgy of 1962." Benedict XVI explains why the 1962 missal "was never juridically abrogated" (which implies that it can) : "...when the new Missal had been introduced under Pope Paul VI, it had not seemed necessary to issue guidelines regulating the use of the 1962 Liturgy..."

    After the "new norms for the use of the Roman Liturgy of 1962" are implemented, the "juridical abrogation" of the 1962 missal now in use will necesarily follow.


    All quotes are docuмented:

    Quote
    http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2007/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi.html
    SUMMORUM PONTIFIcuм
     
    "...the new Missal will certainly remain the ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, not only on account of the juridical norms, but also because of the actual situation of the communities of the faithful."
     
    "...For that matter, the two Forms of the usage of the Roman Rite can be mutually enriching: new Saints and some of the new Prefaces can and should be inserted in the old Missal.  The “Ecclesia Dei” Commission, in contact with various bodies devoted to the usus antiquior, will study the practical possibilities in this regard. The celebration of the Mass according to the Missal of Paul VI will be able to demonstrate, more powerfully than has been the case hitherto, the sacrality which attracts many people to the former usage.  The most sure guarantee that the Missal of Paul VI can unite parish communities and be loved by them consists in its being celebrated with great reverence in harmony with the liturgical directives. This will bring out the spiritual richness and the theological depth of this Missal.
    I now come to the positive reason which motivated my decision to issue this Motu Proprio updating that of 1988. It is a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church."
     
    "...There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal.  In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture ...Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books.  The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness.
    In conclusion, dear Brothers, I very much wish to stress that these new norms do not in any way lessen your own authority and responsibility, either for the liturgy or for the pastoral care of your faithful.  Each Bishop, in fact, is the moderator of the liturgy in his own Diocese (cf. Sacrosanctum Concilium, 22: “Sacrae Liturgiae moderatio ab Ecclesiae auctoritate unice pendet quae quidem est apud Apostolicam Sedem et, ad normam iuris, apud Episcopum”).
    Nothing is taken away, then, from the authority of the Bishop, whose role remains that of being watchful that all is done in peace and serenity.  Should some problem arise which the parish priest cannot resolve, the local Ordinary will always be able to intervene, in full harmony, however, with all that has been laid down by the new norms of the Motu Proprio.



    Quote
    BENEDICT XVI TO THE BISHOPS ON THE OCCASION OF THE PUBLICATION OF SUMMORUM PONTIFIcuм
     http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2007/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi.html

    "In the first place, there is the fear that the docuмent detracts from the authority of the Second Vatican Council, one of whose essential decisions – the liturgical reform – is being called into question.
    This fear is unfounded.  In this regard, it must first be said that the Missal published by Paul VI and then republished in two subsequent editions by John Paul II, obviously is and continues to be the normal Form – the Forma ordinaria – of the Eucharistic Liturgy.  The last version of the Missale Romanum prior to the Council, which was published with the authority of Pope John XXIII in 1962 and used during the Council, will now be able to be used as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgical celebration.  It is not appropriate to speak of these two versions of the Roman Missal as if they were “two Rites”.  Rather, it is a matter of a twofold use of one and the same rite.
    As for the use of the 1962 Missal as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgy of the Mass, I would like to draw attention to the fact that this Missal was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted.  At the time of the introduction of the new Missal, it did not seem necessary to issue specific norms for the possible use of the earlier Missal.  Probably it was thought that it would be a matter of a few individual cases which would be resolved, case by case, on the local level.  Afterwards, however, it soon became apparent that a good number of people remained strongly attached to this usage of the Roman Rite, which had been familiar to them from childhood..."


    Quote
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/docuмents/rc_com_ecclsdei_doc_20110430_istr-universae-ecclesiae_en.html
    INSTRUCTION ON THE APPLICATION OF THE APOSTOLIC LETTER SUMMORUM PONTIFIcuм
     
     2. With this Motu Proprio, the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI promulgated a universal law for the Church, intended to establish new regulations for the use of the Roman Liturgy in effect in 1962.
     
    7. The Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificuм was accompanied by a letter from the Holy Father to Bishops, with the same date as the Motu Proprio (7 July 2007). This letter gave further explanations regarding the appropriateness and the need for the Motu Proprio; it was a matter of overcoming a lacuna by providing new norms for the use of the Roman Liturgy of 1962. Such norms were needed particularly on account of the fact that, when the new Missal had been introduced under Pope Paul VI, it had not seemed necessary to issue guidelines regulating the use of the 1962 Liturgy...
    11. After having received the approval from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei will have the task of looking after future editions of liturgical texts pertaining to the forma extraordinaria of the Roman Rite.
     
    25. New saints and certain of the new prefaces can and ought to be inserted into the 1962 Missal[9], according to provisions which will be indicated subsequently.
    26. As foreseen by article 6 of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificuм, the readings of the Holy Mass of the Missal of 1962 can be proclaimed either solely in the Latin language, or in Latin followed by the vernacular or, in Low Masses, solely in the vernacular.



    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #126 on: January 22, 2019, 12:44:54 PM »
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  • The people who think this theory of Pope Benedict being αssαssιnαtҽd are the ones who think he is still the pope and that he was coerced into resigning therefore it is null.  People like Louis Verrachio and Fr. Kramer.  They somehow want to believe he was a good pope.........
    No, actually they know for a fact that Pope Benedict was/is a bad Pope, a  material heretic; unlike Pope Francis whom they think is an apostate and formal heretic.

    Offline JmJ2cents

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #127 on: January 22, 2019, 01:47:32 PM »
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  • No, actually they know for a fact that Pope Benedict was/is a bad Pope, a  material heretic; unlike Pope Francis whom they think is an apostate and formal heretic.
    They think he is a heretic but not as bad as Pope Francis and they do believe that Pope Benedict is still Pope.   


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #128 on: January 22, 2019, 02:40:01 PM »
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  • Marie Aux,
    You keep mixing up the present, past and future and making an argument with all 3 mixed together - that makes no sense.  We have to look at what the laws say - not the commentary, or people's OPINIONS about the law or what happened BECAUSE OF the law.  We have to look at what is OBLIGATED by the law.  This is all that matters.

    Below is a series of questions I have.  Please answer these and maybe we can get to an agreement on things.


    Quote
    You don't understand Summorum Pontificuм and its related docuмents (still in effect).
    "Summorum Pontificuм" (SP) concerns itself with when/where Bishops are to allow the latin mass to be said.  It is a revsion of the previous indult law.  It does NOT apply, in ANY way, to Quo Primum, which is still law. 

    Quo Primum says 1) any priest/catholic can say/attend this missal in perpetuity, by papal permission, with no limitations.  2) ALL catholics must ONLY use this missal.

    SP puts limitations, contrary to Quo Primum.  Quo Primum is a higher law and anything contrary to it is null and void.  The reason why it's a higher law is because it says it applies to ALL Catholics, everywhere, under pain of sin.  SP does not say it applies to anyone, there are no obligations to follow it and there is no penalty for ignoring it.  Hence, SP violates Quo Primum.  Do you agree or disagree?


    Quote
    Your claim that: "it matters when the law that issues the missal is put in force" is meaningless. As you can see, Benedict keeps referring to the older indults througout his own docuмents. You need to read them without prejudice. 
    That comment was in response to your claim that "Benedict already approved a hybrid missal."  This isn't possible, since the hybrid missal doesn't yet exist and he's not pope anymore.  A pope CANNOT approve something which hasn't happened or hasn't been finished.


    Quote
    The purpose of Summorum Pontificuм was never to "liberate" the 1962 missal but to give it it's proper burial.  As I mentioned before, Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in his book The Spirit of the Liturgy (published in 2000), that two rites (Novus Ordo &1962) were too difficult to manage therefore they would eventually have to be merged into one (missal).
    Who cares?  It hasn't happened yet.  You're projecting what the modernists want vs the present.  We're talking about CURRENT law, not the future.


    Quote
    That is what he accomplished through  Summorum Pontificuм. He authorized Ecclesia Dei to make all the changes necessary to the 1962 missal so that the two "FORMS" would complement each other: " new Saints and some of the new Prefaces can and should be inserted in the old Missal and that "The “Ecclesia Dei” Commission, in contact with various bodies devoted to the usus antiquior, will study the practical possibilities in this regard".
    Again, it doesn't matter.  Firstly, the Ecclesia Dei doesn't exist anymore (as of this month) so any authorization is pointless now.  Secondly, popes authorize commissions to do things all the time.  It's how governments work.  That doesn't mean the commission has the power of the pope or that it can do whatever it wants.  Commissions create multiple drafts, which the pope and his advisors review, then changes are made, again and again, until a final version is complete...THEN the pope signs off on it and makes it law.

    The hybrid missal which you talk about (which I assume you mean will get rid of the 1962 missal) doesn't yet exist.  The (former) Eccelsia Dei commission MIGHT have a close-to-complete draft, but no pope has approved it yet. 

    Again, the pope can't approve of a missal of the future...unless all the changes are already known and agreed to. 


    Quote
    Regarding Summorum Pontificuм, Benedict XVI says: "I now come to the positive reason which motivated my decision to issue this Motu Proprio updating that of 1988. It is a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church."
    The SP law was a continuation of the indult laws.  I've admitted this as it's very clear.  But these laws are meaningless and are null because they violate Quo Primum, as I explained above.  The indult laws oblige NO ONE to follow them, they have NO PENALTIES for violating them and since they contradict a CURRENT LAW, they can/should be ignored.

    Do you not understand the legal situation when a lower law (i.e. a city law) contradicts a higher law (i.e. state law)?  The lower law is null.


    Quote
    Those who consider the Mass a matter of mere discipline and the pope "master of the liturgy" have to accept the "new norms for the use of the Roman Liturgy of 1962." Benedict XVI explains why the 1962 missal "was never juridically abrogated" (which implies that it can) : "...when the new Missal had been introduced under Pope Paul VI, it had not seemed necessary to issue guidelines regulating the use of the 1962 Liturgy..."
    Of course the pope can abrogate teh 1962 missal (but no pope has yet).  Just like St Pope Pius V abrogated his own missal a few years after Quo Primum.  And then, 5-6 popes abrogated the missal after that and issued new ones, all the way down the line from 1571 to 1962.  The problem is not the abrogation (this happens all the time with Church law), the problem is if the new missal is DOCTRINALLY/ESSENTIALLY different than the previous ones.

    Every missal from the 600s (Pope St Gregory Great's time) til 1962 is DOCTRINALLY/ESSENTIALLY the same.  And all these missals were abrogated and replaced with a new missal (the changes being updates to the calendar and other non-essential liturgical matters).

    P.s.  The pope is "master of the liturgy" when it comes to non-essentials.  (i.e. when the pope added the genuflection to the Credo.)  Do you agree/disagree?


    Quote
    After the "new norms for the use of the Roman Liturgy of 1962" are implemented, the "juridical abrogation" of the 1962 missal now in use will necesarily follow.
    1) Hasn't happened yet.  2) When/if a new missal is made, we'll read the law and see what it says.  If the language is non-specific, non-obligatory and non-binding (like the law which created the new mass), then I'll say "who cares?" because no catholic will have to accept it and the 1962 missal will still HAVE TO be used, since Quo Primum demands it.

    Offline drew

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #129 on: January 22, 2019, 07:53:02 PM »
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  • You answered your own question. Look at the facts.  Which came first, JPIIs commission or the indults?  The commission did.  What does that mean?  It means that the commission decided BEFORE THE INDULT LAWS EXISTED that the True Mass wasn’t outlawed.  

    That means that the 62 missal wasn’t outlawed and the indults are legal trickery, trying to get people to “ask” for something that they already have the right to have.  The indults were accepted by everyone but Traditionalists because we know that Quo Primum is a higher law.  And since the commission ruled that Quo Primum is still law, and this was again confirmed in 2007 by +Benedict, then this is fact.  

    What we disagree on is which missal is the True Missal.  For some reason (which you’ve yet to explain) you say the 62 missal is illegal, immoral and unusable.  You’ve yet to prove this with any facts.  The legal fact is that if you say that the 62 missal is illegal then you’d have to use Pius Xs missal.  This would be the last valid missal.  Is this your argument?

    If so, then you’d have to say that John XXIII isn’t the pope because his 62 law abrogated Pius Xs missal and does not allow it to be used any longer.  

    Further, earlier on in this debate, it was said that the 62 missal is wrong because Bugnini was involved.  But John XXIII is the one who suspended Bugnini and took him off the liturgical commission, so that argument doesn’t fly.  

    I still don’t understand why you’re against the 62 missal, if you’re not a sedevacantist.


    The “commission,” of which Cardinal Strickler was a member, was a group of nine cardinals directed by the pope to advise him on two questions.  Nothing of this commission’s work was ever published or intended to be published.  All we have is the comments of Cardinal Strickler regarding the commission’s advice given to JPII.  From Cardinal Strickler we know that the commission said nothing about the 1962 Bugnini transitional Missal.  The commission referred only to the traditional Latin Mass.  The two questions according to Cardinal Strickler were:


    1) Did Pope Paul VI authorize the bishops to forbid the celebration of the traditional Mass?
    2) Does the priest have the right to celebrate the traditional Mass in public and in private without restriction, even against the will of his bishop?

    Cardinal Strickler said in an interview: “The answers given by the nine Cardinals in 1986 was ‘No, the Mass of Saint Pius V (Tridentine Mass) has never been suppressed,’ and "the nine Cardinals unanimously agreed that no bishop may forbid a Catholic priest from saying the Tridentine Mass."

    Considering this advice explains why JPII then permitted the 1962 Bugnini transitional Missal as an Indult.  He did not want traditional Catholics to know that they are entitled by their baptism to the “received and approved” rites so he gave them the 1962 Bugnini transitional Missal in the form of an Indult.  There is, in fact, no “legal trickery” involved here at all.    

    Your opinion that the 1962 Bugnini transitional Indult Missal “wasn’t outlawed” is taken from Benedict XVI’s Summormum Pontificuм and its accompanying letter of explanation to the world’s bishops.  If you accept these docuмents as your proof for this judgment than you must accept its authority when they say that the 1962 Bugnini Missal and the 1969 Bugnini transitional Missal are two forms on one and the same rite with a common provenance.  You must also accept the claim that the two forms of the one worship can mutually enhance one another. You must also accept the perfect legitimacy of Vatican II doctrinal teachings are without error. You must also accept the entire Bugnini liturgical reform in principle which means that the liturgy is merely a question of discipline and not dogma.  These are all affirmed in the docuмents and they constitute legal conditions for the use of the 1962 Bugnini Missal as a grant of legal privilege.  Whoever uses the 1962 Bugnini Missal affirms by that fact all the stipulations contained in all three docuмents: Quattuor abhinc annos, Ecclesia Dei, and Summorum pontificuм (read again Fr. Guy Castelain, SSPX in his magazine "The Combat of Faith" of March 2016 explaining how these three docuмents are materially related).

    The “received and approved” immemorial Roman rite could no more be reduced to a grant of legal privilege than it could be reduced to an Indult.  It is immaterial whether or not you agree with the legal norms imposed by Rome.  They are the lawmakers and the interpreters of the law, your legal opinions notwithstanding.  

    I attend a Mass that is with absolute moral certitude the “received and approved” immemorial Roman rite of Mass because it is the Mass that does not have Bugnini’s finger prints all over it.  In doing so, I do not appeal to an Indult or grant of legal privilege for its use but the right possessed by every baptized Catholic to worship God according to the “received and approved” rites of the Church.  That is, I appeal to Catholic Dogma.  Whoever uses or attends a Mass using the 1962 Bugnini transitional Missal cannot make this claim with any certainty beyond a legal opinion.  And what is more to the point, Rome will not recognize their argument if they do.

    Your opinions are ultimately grounded upon yourself as a liturgical and legal authority which is not worth the breath to say it.  Now you may in the end prove to be correct but that is very unlikely.  You like legalisms and you are not a lawyer.  Discussing the immemorial “recieved and approved” Roman rite of Mass in legalistic terms is distasteful.  You have relegated what is in its essence a matter of revealed truth to a simple question of authority and obedience.  What is worse, you offer your legal opinions as definitive grounds for the defense of proper worship of God when it can only serve to disunite and destroy any coherent reply to an abuse of authority.

    Drew

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #130 on: January 22, 2019, 08:28:31 PM »
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  • You keep treating the 62 missal as if there’s some MASSIVE changes in it which make it different from the previous one.  It’s not essentially different, that’s a fact.  

    Also, if you think John XXIII was Pope, how do you explain the fact that he specifically says that Pius X’s missal and the Pius XII Holy Week changes are abrogated?  What missal does your priest use?  Why is this law invalid?  Please explain.  


    Offline drew

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #131 on: January 22, 2019, 09:29:21 PM »
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  • You keep treating the 62 missal as if there’s some MASSIVE changes in it which make it different from the previous one.  It’s not essentially different, that’s a fact.  

    Also, if you think John XXIII was Pope, how do you explain the fact that he specifically says that Pius X’s missal and the Pius XII Holy Week changes are abrogated?  What missal does your priest use?  Why is this law invalid?  Please explain.  


    Your opinion is not worth anything to anybody but yourself.  Rome, whether you like it or not, treats the 1962 Bugnini transitional Missal as an object of mere discipline, first as an Indult and now as a grant of legal privilege tied to unacceptable conditions for any Catholic faithful to tradition.  Those that accept the 1962 Bugnini transitional Missal, as you have, by that fact alone have accepted all its explicit and implied conditions.  That is the ugly fact that you ignore placing greater stock in your legal opinions.

    You, as your own legal and liturgical expert, have determined that the 1962 Bugnini Missal is “not essentially different.”  But Rome does not agree or they would not treat the Missal as an Indult or grant of legal privilege which constitutes prima facie evidence that the 1962 Bugnini transitional Missal is NOT the “received and approved” Roman rite.  Rome is the authority on this question and you are not, and until Rome overturns this matter your opinions have no standing.  I know and admit that the 1955 pre-Bugnini Missal is different in essentials from the 1969 Bugnini Missal.  Furthermore, I do not pretend, as you do, to know the exact change and the exact moment that constitutes the break with immemorial tradition.  Because I cannot say with certainty when the break occurred, I can only defer to the legal status Rome regards the 1962 Bugnini transitional Missal as correct. I therefore attend a Mass that is without possibility of error the “received and approved” rite because it was never tampered with by Bugnini.  You do not.

    No pope has the right to adopt liturgical changes that harm the faith.  Bugnini’s changes from the very beginning were enacted with the intent to destroy the “received and approved” Roman rite.  The end is primary in practical matters.  It is the first in intent and the last in execution.  But, it is important to remember, the end determines the moral quality of each and every act along the way.  


    Drew  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #132 on: January 22, 2019, 09:48:09 PM »
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  • Still haven’t answered the question.  John XXIII abrogated St Pius Xs missal so how can anyone use it without breaking the law?

    Second, John XXIII suspended Bugnini before the 62 missal was released so your claim that this missal had a “bad intent” is unprovable because Bugnini wasn’t involved until Paul VI put him back on the commission.

    Thirdly, was St Pius Xs missal the Tridentine missal?  Yes, it was the legal child of Quo Primum, which started the Tridentine rite.   Therefore, if the 62 missal replaced St Pius Xs missal, then the 62 missal is the valid successor of the Tridentine rite.  

    The only way that your theory makes any sense is if you prove that John XXIIIs law which created the 62 missal was never legal.  Other than that, you can’t explain this law and its effects.  


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #133 on: January 22, 2019, 11:57:39 PM »
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  • Thirdly, was St Pius Xs missal the Tridentine missal?  Yes, it was the legal child of Quo Primum, which started the Tridentine rite.   Therefore, if the 62 missal replaced St Pius Xs missal, then the 62 missal is the valid successor of the Tridentine rite.  

    Quote
    After St. Pius X, little by little, the so called “Liturgical Movement” strayed from its original path, and came full circle to embrace the theories which it had been founded to combat. All the ideas of the anti-liturgical heresy — as Dom Guéranger called the liturgical theories of the 18th century — were now taken up again in the 1920s and 30s by liturgists like Dom Lambert Beauduin (1873-1960) in Belgium and France, and by Dom Pius Parsch and Romano Guardini in Austria and Germany.

    The “reformers” of the 1930s and 1940s introduced the “Dialogue Mass,” because of their “excessive emphasis on the active participation of the faithful in the liturgical functions.” In some cases — in scout camps, and other youth and student organizations — the innovators succeeded in introducing Mass in the vernacular, the celebration of Mass on a table facing the people, and even concelebration. Among the young priests who took a delight in liturgical experiments in Rome in 1933 was the chaplain of the Catholic youth movement, a certain Father Giovanni Battista Montini.

    https://www.sodalitiumpianum.com/liturgical-revolution/

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #134 on: January 23, 2019, 12:07:07 AM »
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  • The 1955 Holy Week: Other Innovations

    Here is a partial list of other innovations introduced by the new Holy Week:

    Quote
    • The Prayer for the Conversion of Heretics became the “Prayer for Church Unity”
    • The genuflection at the Prayer for the Jєωs, a practice the Church spurned for centuries in horror at the crime they committed on the first Good Friday.
    • The new rite suppressed much medieval symbolism (the opening of the door of the church at the Gloria Laus for example).
    • The new rite introduced the vernacular in some places (renewal of baptismal promises).
    • The Pater Noster was recited by all present (Good Friday).
    • The prayers for the emperor were replaced by a prayer for those governing the republic, all with a very modern flavor.
    • In the Breviary, the very moving psalm Miserere, repeated at all of the Office, was suppressed.
    • For Holy Saturday the Exultet was changed and much of the symbolism of its words suppressed.
    • Also on Holy Saturday, eight of the twelve prophecies were suppressed.
    • Sections of the Passion were suppressed, even the Last Supper disappeared, in which our Lord, already betrayed, celebrated for the first time in history the Sacrifice of the Mass.
    • On Good Friday, communion was now distributed, contrary to the tradition of the Church, and condemned by St. Pius X when people had wanted to initiate this practice
    • All the rubrics of the 1955 Holy Week rite, then, insisted continually on the “participation” of the faithful, and they scorned as abuses many of the popular devotions (so dear to the faithful) connected with Holy Week.


    This brief examination of the reform of Holy Week should allow the reader to realize how the “experts” who would come up with the New Mass fourteen years later had used and taken advantage of the 1955 Holy Week rites to test their revolutionary experiments before applying them to the whole liturgy.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.