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Author Topic: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei  (Read 27579 times)

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Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #105 on: January 19, 2019, 01:54:41 PM »
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  • Done! Ecclesia Dei was abolished January 17th. Motu Proprio is only available in Italian at this time.

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/it/motu_proprio/docuмents/papa-francesco-motu-proprio-20190117_ecclesia-dei.html

    Translation from Rorate Caeli:

    Quote
    For over thirty years, the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, established by the motu proprio Ecclesia Dei adflicta, of July 2, 1988, has acquitted with sincere and praiseworthy solicitude the task of collaborating with the Bishops and the Dicasteries of the Roman Curia, in facilitating the full ecclesial communion of priests, seminarians, communities or individual religious men and women once attached to the Fraternity founded by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who wished to remain united to the Successor of Peter in the Catholic Church, while preserving their spiritual and liturgical traditions.
     
     In this way, the Commission was able to exercise its authority and competence over said Societies and Associations in the name of the Holy See, until otherwise provided.
     
     Subsequently, under the motu proprio Summorum Pontificuм of 7 July 2007, the Pontifical Commission extended the authority of the Holy See over those Institutes and religious communities, which adhere to the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite and earlier traditions of religious life, maintaining vigilance over the observance and application of established dispositions.
     
     Two years later, my Venerable Predecessor Benedict XVI, with the motu proprio Ecclesiae Unitatem, of 2 July 2009, reorganized the structure of the Pontifical Commission, in order to make it more suitable for the new situation created with the remission of the excommunication of the four Bishops consecrated without pontifical mandate. Moreover, considering that, after such an act of grace, the matters handled by the same Pontifical Commission were primarily doctrinal, my predecessor linked the Commission to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith more organically, conserving its initial ends, but modifying its structure.
     
     Now, since the Feria IV [the regular Wednesday meeting] of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith of November 15, 2017 had formulated the request that the dialogue between the Holy See and the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X [SSPX] be conducted directly by the aforementioned Congregation, and since the issues treated are of a doctrinal nature, to which request I gave my approval in Audientia to the Cardinal Prefect [Cardinal Luis Ladaria,SJ] the following 24 November, and [since] this proposal was welcomed by the Plenary Session of the same Congregation celebrated from 23 to 26 January 2018, I have come, after ample reflection, to the following Decision.
     
     Considering today the conditions that had led the holy Pontiff, John Paul II, to the establishment of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei; noting that the Institutes and religious communities that usually celebrate in extraordinary form have today found their own stability of number and life; noting that the aims and issues dealt with by the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei are of a predominantly doctrinal nature; wishing that these aims be ever more visible to the conscience of the ecclesial communities, with the present Apostolic Letter motu proprio data;
     
     I establish (Delibero):


     
    Quote
    1. The Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, established on 2 July 1988 with the motu proprio, Ecclesia Dei adflicta, is suppressed.
     
     2. The tasks of the Commission in question are assigned in full to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, within which a special Section will be set up to continue the work of supervision, promotion and protection so far conducted by the suppressed Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.
     
     The budget of the Pontifical Commission is part of the ordinary accounting of the aforementioned Congregation.. E’soppressa la Pontificia Commissione Ecclesia Dei, istituita il 2 luglio 1988 col Motu Proprio Ecclesia Dei adflicta.

    Moreover, I establish that the present motu proprio, to be observed in spite of anything contrary, even if worthy of particular mention, is promulgated by publication in the 19 January 2019 edition of the L’Osservatore Romano newspaper, entering into immediate force, and subsequently inserted in the official gazzette of the Holy See, Acta Apostolicae Sedis.
     
     Given at Rome, in St. Peter’s, January 17, 2019, VI of Our Pontificate.

    Francesco [unofficial translation provided by the Catholic Herald]

    ____________________

    1Cf. Joannes Paulus PP. II, Litterae Apostolicae ‘Motu proprio datae’, Ecclesia Dei adflicta’, 2 Iulii 1988, AAS, LXXX (1988), 12 (15 Nov. 1988), 1495-1498, 6a.

    2 Cf. Rescriptum ex Audientia Sanctissimi, 18 Oct. 1988, AAS, LXXXII (1990), 5 (3 Maii 1990), 533-534, 6.

    3 Cf. Benedictus PP. XVI, Litterae Apostolicae ‘Motu proprio datae’, Summorum Pontificuм, 7 Iulii 2007, AAS, XCIX (2007), 9 (7 Sept. 2007), 777-781, 12.

    4 Cf. Benedictus PP. XVI, Litterae Apostolicae ‘Motu proprio datae’, Ecclesiae unitatem, 2 Iulii 2009, AAS, CI (2009),

    8 (7 Aug. 2009), 710-711, 5
    .
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline poche

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #106 on: January 19, 2019, 10:40:01 PM »
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  • Still, I don't see how that is the end of the SSPX, They are still here and they don't appear to be going anywhere .


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #107 on: January 20, 2019, 07:25:45 PM »
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  • In this article published in his magazine "The Combat for the Faith" of March 2016, Fr. Guy Castelain SSPX,  explains the legal and thematic realtionship between Quattuor Abhinc Annos in 1984, Ecclesia Dei in 1988 and Summorum Pontificuм in 2007. It makes it very clear that the purpose of these docuмents is to bring traditional Catholics under their control by conditionnally accepting Vatican II and the Novus Ordo and that Summorum Pontificuм has nothing to do with "freeing" the 1962 missal.
     
    There is much that is good in this article as well as troublesome. It was written to warn others regarding the indult communities but seems oblivious to the ugly fact that Bishop Fellay had betrayed the SSPX long before. We learn from Dr. Chonowski that the betrayal was formally underway by 2001 and by the secret GREC meetings long before that. Fr. Castelain offers no positive means to counter these measures other than avoiding indult communities and seems unaware of the reformed missal about to be introduced.

    For clarity, please use the link.

     



    Quote

    THE TRUE MISSION OF THE COMMISSION ECCLESIA DEI

    There are some who affirm that Francisco does not intend to abolish the motu proprio Summorum Pontificuм once the FSSPX is recognized. While we can not claim that it will, history has something to say about it.
     
    We present below an article on the history of the Ecclesia Dei Commission and its mission, written by Fr. Guy Castelain (FSSPX) in his magazine "The Combat of Faith" of March 2016. By reading it, we will understand that Ecclesia communities Dei exist in function of the SSPX, and they continue to exist because of it, so that if the Fraternity is "recognized" by Rome, these communities will no longer have a reason to exist.
     
    In this regard, Dr. Peter Chojnowski, a renowned Thomistic philosopher, writer and lecturer who has been a close associate of the FSSPX, tells us in his blog : " In 2001, I was told by a District Superior of the FSSPX who had just met with Bishop Fellay - who in turn had just met with Cardinal [Castrillón] Hoyos - who ... the Cardinal told Bishop Fellay that the plan was to have all the traditional groups under Bishop Fellay. When the surprised Bishop Fellay asked the Cardinal: 'And what about the Fraternity of Saint Peter?' the Cardinal said 'They will be under you!' However, the condition was that all four bishops of the SSPX should enter together. This was in the time of John Paul II . "
     
     
    "Let all those who imagine that there is a vocation identity between the Ecclesia Dei institutes and the FSSPX open their eyes. The Ecclesia Dei commission and the institutes attached to it are a great danger to the work founded by Bishop Marcel Lefebvre. They have the vocation to neutralize, paralyze and dissolve it "
     
     
    THE TRUE MISSION OF THE COMMISSION ECCLESIA DEI
     
    On November 22, 1989, Archbishop Lefebvre said in an interview with François Brigneau on Radio Courtoisie: "Despite the persecutions, we can say violent, from Rome and from the Roman commission ( Ecclesia Dei, ndlr) that is responsible for the recovery of the traditionalists to submit them to the Council [...] the situation is more stable, stronger, more dynamic than ever "(Month derniers cahiers, première série, n ° 1, Pour saluer Mgr Lefebvre, par François Brigneau, Publication FB, p.35).
     
    Archbishop Lefebvre said it right: The Ecclesia Dei commission "is responsible for the recovery of the traditionalists". Today, this mission has not changed. This we must demonstrate. To do so, it is necessary to go through the great stages they have made and make the history of the aforementioned commission. Four docuмents must be taken into account: 1) The Letter of October 3, 1984; 2) the Motu proprio of July 2, 1988; 3) the Motu proprio of July 7, 2007; 4) the Motu proprio of July 2, 2009. The letter of October 28, 2013 from the Nuncio to the San Pedro Fraternity will serve as confirmation of the thesis.
     
    1) The Circular Letter Quattuor abhinc annos of the Congregation for Divine Worship addressed to the episcopal conferences on October 2, 1984.
     
    This docuмent predates the creation of the Ecclesia Dei commission, but it is extremely important. In effect, this will remain as the fundamental docuмent that will inform the spirit of the future commission that will refer to it.
    In 1980, Rome asked all the bishops of the world to make a report on the application of the liturgical reform wanted by Pope Paul VI. This report had, among other things, to express itself on "the difficulties encountered in carrying out the liturgical reform" and "the possible resistance" that should have been "overcome".
     
    After the answers sent to Rome, it seemed that the problem of the priests and the faithful attached to the Tridentine rite was, so to speak, fixed.
     
    In fact, the problem of the old mass remained completely. Modernist Rome realizing that it could not suffocate the movement in favor of the old mass, decided to try to take control:
     
    "The sovereign pontiff, wishing to give satisfaction to these groups" granted the celebration of the Tridentine Mass "but observing the following norms", being the first: "That it is very clear that these priests and these faithful have nothing to do with those who they question the legitimacy and doctrinal rectitude of the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and that his position be unambiguously and publicly acknowledged. "
     
    Therefore it was well established that a priest could not benefit from the old Mass except on the condition of abandoning the fight against the mass of Paul VI, and that this position should be public and known to all.
     
    On the other hand, this concession should "be used without prejudice to the observance of the liturgical reform in the life of the ecclesial communities." It was also clear that this concession could not have the pretension of supplanting the mass of Paul VI and that it should retain all its rights of liturgical "primacy".
     
    There are several conclusions to be drawn from this pardon: 1) Its publication made the whole world believe that the Mass of St. Pius V was forbidden, since it was not and could not be (the docuмent of July 7, 2007 of Benedict XVI confessed it ); 2) made believe, therefore, that a special permission was necessary to celebrate the old mass; 3) far from being liberated, the old mass was, because of the conditions to be met to benefit from it, instrumentalized to achieve the acceptance of the new Mass of Paul VI.
     
    This pardon was then a "doctrinal trap". Thus, those who pretended to enjoy the Mass of St. Pius V "legally" did, in fact, a "legal" profession of officially accepting the new Mass that they had rejected until that moment. Consequently, this Motu proprio , far from being a victory for the supporters of the ancient liturgy, was in reality a victory of modernist Rome in favor of the conciliar liturgical reform. It was clear then that the SSPX could not in any way avail itself of such pardon. The priests of this Fraternity should never ask permission to celebrate their Mass in a church or sanctuary based on this pardon. The imposed conditions prohibited them, in any case, from obtaining this faculty, since their position regarding the new Mass did not allow them to comply with the requirements.
     
    2) The Apostolic Letter Ecclesia Dei of July 2, 1988, in the form of motu proprio of Pope John Paul II.
     
    Ecclesia Dei are the first two words of a text published by Rome the day after the alleged excommunication of Bishop Lefebvre. Indeed, on June 30, 1988, the bishop proceeded to what he called "the survival operation of Tradition", consecrating four bishops to whom he gave no jurisdiction. These, supported by the principles of canon law of the Church, were to ensure a substitution (provided by the ecclesiastical law in several matters) in the heart of the conciliar crisis for the preaching of the faith, the administration of the sacrament of confirmation and Sacrament of order.
     
    The excommunication, although existing on paper, was in fact devoid of foundation. Bishop Lefebvre, before consecrating, studied and studied the ancient canon law to ensure that he acted according to the Spirit of the Church contained in this axiom: Suprema lex, salus animarum . A thesis of Father Murray even had, in 1995, the audacity to prove that, according to the new right of John Paul II, excommunication was not founded!
     
    The excommunication of July 1, 1988
     
    On July 1, 1988, the decree Dominus Marcellus Lefebvre unjustly excommunicated, both from the point of view of the canon law of 1917 and the new one of 1983, the consecrating bishop and the four consecrated bishops.
     
    Excommunication null and void, ghost excommunication, excommunication of paper playing the role of scarecrow to cause fear to the poor people who had rediscovered hope in the Church thanks to the Athanasius of the twentieth century.
     
    The Motu proprio Ecclesia Dei from July 2
     
    The scarecrow was going to fulfill its effective role in precipitating the good people, the formalists and the fearful in the "open arms" of conciliar Rome: the threat of schism and therefore the fear of the eternal loss of his soul. Everything then went to effectively remove them from the Brotherhood of Bishop Lefebvre and take them forever to the conciliar Church.
     
    Thus, John Paul II decreed the establishment of a commission for those "who wish to remain united to the successor of Peter in the Catholic Church, preserving their spiritual and liturgical traditions."
     
    Therefore it was absolutely a commission of recovery of the faithful and priests who had frequented the SSPX.
     
    The effects did not wait: clerics, more formalist than canonists, believed it was their duty to leave the Brotherhood of Bishop Lefebvre to found the Fraternity of St. Peter in order to be "in law". Conciliar legality, it goes without saying.
     
    They were received by a commission that bore a name composed of the three words of the beginning of the letter that was the origin of this commission: Ecclesia Dei afflicta . That is to say: The Church of God is afflicted ... Afflicted why? For the alleged schism of Bishop Lefebvre, a schism that no one could ever prove or prove, and which many specialists have denied.
     
    It was, for these priests, accept to submit to a conciliar commission and, of this fact, go against the spirit of the law: "He who, to keep the letter of the law, goes against the spirit of the law, has sinned against the law "( Regula juris 88 ). For formalism, he committed a kind of "legal sin": a sin against the law under the pretext of being in order with it.
     
    Dissociate from the FSSPX
     
    I do not intend to make a complete analysis here of this Motu proprio of 1988. All the paragraphs deserve, not only a commentary, but a severe criticism, both the presentation they make of the facts is contrary to reality.
     
    I would simply like to call attention to the call made by John Paul II to dissociate himself from the SSPX in this docuмent: "In the present circuмstances, I wish above all to address a call at once solemn and fervent, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now they have been linked in various ways with the activities of Archbishop Lefebvre, so that they fulfill the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church and stop sustaining in any way that this reprehensible way of acting. Everyone should know that formal adherence to the schism constitutes a grave offense against God and carries with it excommunication duly established by the law of the Church "(§ 5, c).
     
    As explained above, in compensation for this separation "a Commission is constituted, with the task of collaborating with the bishops, with the dicasteries of the Roman Curia and with the interested circles, to facilitate the full ecclesial communion of the priests, seminarians, communities, religious or religious, which until now were linked in different ways to the Fraternity founded by Archbishop Lefebvre and who wish to remain united to the Successor of Peter in the Catholic Church, preserving their spiritual and liturgical traditions "(§6, a).
     
    The mission of the Ecclesia Dei commission is therefore very clear: to combat the work of spiritual health of the founding bishop of the SSPX. Then he was right to say that the Ecclesia Dei commission was "in charge of the recovery of the traditionalists."
     
    From 1984 to 1988: same combat
     
    Another extremely important point: the Motu proprio of July 2, 1988, states in point 6 c: "the sensitivity of all those who feel bound to the Latin liturgical tradition, through a wide range of and generous application of the rules issued some time ago by the Apostolic See, for the use of the Roman Missal according to the typical edition of 1962. "
     
    This paragraph refers to footnote 9, which refers to the docuмent of October 3, 1984: Cf. Congregation for Divine Worship, Letter Quattuor abhinc annos , October 3, 1984: AAS 76, 1984, 1.088 -1.089. It is clear then that the Ecclesia Dei commission continued in its original line: they will only be in legality if they no longer fight the mass of Paul VI, if they do not cause harm to the conciliar liturgical reform and if their position is publicly known throughout the world.
    So the Ecclesia Dei commission had the purpose:
     
    1) To marginalize the work of Bishop Lefebvre and make it inaccessible; 2) remove priests and the faithful from it; 3) to make all the recalcitrants accept the new Mass; 4) no longer allow anyone the exclusivity of the old mass; 5) and finally, stop the combat of Tradition. Ecclesia Dei became the refuge of Catholics who "prefer the old Mass" for personal pleasure, but have ceased the good fight that consists in rejecting the new Mass for reasons of faith and keep the old for the same reason.
     
    For or against the SSPX
     
    Since then the question of an " Ecclesia Dei option" has been raised, which has finally resulted in a dilemma "for or against Bishop Lefebvre" or "for or against the SSPX". More generally, a false problem now appears: "in the Church with Ecclesia Dei , or outside the Church with the SSPX". Even simpler: Catholic or excommunicated. There was a false dilemma in conscience and, apparently, a dilemma in serious matters, which logically compromised the salvation of those who chose knowingly. It was not, in fact, more than a scruple of conscience invented by the men of the Council to bring its liturgical revolution to a good conclusion and to make the work of Bishop Lefebvre disappear forever.
     
    3) The Apostolic Letter Summorum pontificuм of July 7, 2007 in the form of Motu proprio of Benedict XVI .
     
    This docuмent is what led many Catholics to believe that the Mass of St. Pius V had been "liberated." It deserves a comprehensive comment. However, it is necessary, in this article, to limit oneself to what follows.
     
    After falsely applying to the new Mass of Paul VI everything that could be said with all truth of the rite of St. Pius V, the pope recalls that: "In some regions, however, not a few faithful adhered and continue to adhere with much love and affection to the previous liturgical forms, which had impregnated their culture and spirit in such a profound way, that the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II, moved by pastoral concern regarding these faithful, in the year 1984, with the special pardon " Quattuor abhinc annos ", issued by the Congregation for Divine Worship, granted the faculty to use the Roman Missal edited by Blessed John XXIII in 1962; Later, in the year 1988, with the Apostolic Letter " Ecclesia Dei ", given in the form of Motu Proprio, John Paul II exhorted the bishops to widely and generously use this faculty in favor of all the faithful who requested it ". The line of thought is clear: conciliar Rome is always on the path traced by the docuмent of October 3, 1984.
     
    Twelve articles come immediately, of which the first ends in these terms: "That is why it is permissible to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass according to the typical edition of the Roman Missal promulgated by Blessed John XXIII in 1962, which has never been abrogated, as a form extraordinary of the liturgy of the Church. The conditions for the use of this missal established in the previous docuмents " Quattuor abhinc annis " and " Ecclesia Dei ", shall be replaced as set forth below ". Follow 11 articles that enunciate the new conditions to benefit from the old mass.
     
    One could believe that everything had changed, that the old Mass was definitely free, because the agreed faculties seemed truly more "broad". This is not the case, because Article 11 of the docuмent states bluntly: "The Pontifical Commission" Ecclesia Dei ", erected by John Paul II in 1988, continues to exercise its mission". And it refers to note 5 that says: "Cf. JUAN PABLO II, Lett. ap in the form of Motu proprio Ecclesia Dei , July 2, 1988, 6: AAS 80 (1988), 1498 ". What is this mission? Which is fixed in the docuмent of 1988 already mentioned: to remove the faithful from the work of Bishop Lefebvre and, in reference to the docuмent of October 3, 1984, not to grant the Tridentine rite more than to those who do not question the new mass, without prejudice to the liturgical reform and whose position is publicly known.
     
    Article 12 provides that "The Commission itself, in addition to the powers it already enjoys, will exercise the authority of the Holy See, overseeing the observance and application of these provisions." And in fact, articles 7 and 8 refer to the mentioned commission in case of litigation in the petitions to celebrate the ancient rite.
     
    The line is therefore always the same and the Motu proprio of 2007 does not do more than materially expand the ability to use the ancient rite.
     
    For, formally, its use is always conditioned by the same principles and the same spirit: those formulated in the docuмent of July 2, 1988 that refer to the docuмent of October 3, 1984. Despite appearances, the old mass it was not liberated, it remains captive of the conciliar reform and ended by a renunciation: cease the fight of the Faith regarding the mass of Paul VI and accept in principle the conciliar liturgical reform. The Wikipedia article on this is not wrong: "The provisions presented in this letter follow the logic of the previous texts Quattuor abhinc annos and Ecclesia Dei ."
     
    4) The Apostolic Letter Ecclesiae unitatem of July 2, 2009 in the form of motu proprio of Benedict XVI.
     
    In this docuмent, the successor of John Paul II recalls paragraph 6 a of the docuмent of July 2, 1988 that wants "to facilitate the full ecclesial communion of priests, seminarians, communities, religious or religious, which until now were linked from different forms to the Fraternity founded by Archbishop Lefebvre and who wish to remain united to the successor of Peter in the Catholic Church, preserving their spiritual and liturgical traditions "(n ° 2). Doing this, the pope wanted to "expand and update ... the general indication contained in the motu proprio Ecclesia Dei " (n ° 3).
     
    It is useful to underline here two significant points:
     
    1. The commission retains its original name and therefore retains the motu proprio of July 2, 1988, as the founding text, with all that it entails, especially its reference to the pardon of October 3, 1984. She then continues with her original mission: to remove Catholics from the work of Bishop Lefebvre;
     
    2. Paragraph 2 refers explicitly to the docuмent of origin: John Paul II, motu proprio Ecclesia Dei , July 2, 1988, No. 6: AAS 80 [1988] 1498. So this new docuмent remains in line with 1984 and 1988. It is always the same war against Tradition.
     
    On the other hand, in this docuмent, Benedict XVI makes a decision of great consequences. He wants to "reform the structure of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, uniting it closely with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith". Here is the purpose of the letter: to join the Ecclesia Dei commission to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The objective of this maneuver is indicated in n ° 5: "Precisely because the problems that must be dealt with at present with the Fraternity are of an essentially doctrinal nature, I decided - at the twenty-first year of the motu proprio Ecclesia Dei and in accordance with what I had reserved myself (see motu proprio Summorum Pontificuм, Article 11) - to reform the structure of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, uniting it in a close way to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ". With the pretext of focusing the discussions on the doctrinal level (what is fair), Benedict XVI takes a measure that will force the SSPX to have as interlocutor, no longer the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but a commission which was founded to make it disappear! What is this commission? Ecclesia Dei
     
    From here, the SSPX will be forced to dialogue with its sworn enemy from July 2, 1988: the commission Ecclesia Dei . And this commission, we must remember, rests, as on its cornerstone, on the excommunication of Bishop Marcel Lefebvre.
     
    5) The blessing of Pope Francis on the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the founding of the Fraternity of Saint Peter.
     
    The facts show that the Ecclesia Dei commission and Vatican II continue to carry out the same fight. In his letter of October 28, 2013, the Apostolic Nuncio of Paris, Luigi Ventura, assured the members of the San Pedro Fraternity that "Pope Francis joins the thanksgiving of his members for the work accomplished in the course for a quarter of a century in the service of ecclesial communion cuм Petro et sub Petro ". What ecclesial work is it about? The one that has consisted, as indicated by Motu proprio of July 2, 1988, in separating the faithful from the SSPX to take them to the conciliar Church. The pope, on the other hand, refers to the events that gave birth to him, that is, the consecrations of 1988 and the excommunication of Bishop Lefebvre: "It is at a moment of great proof for the Church, that the Fraternity of Saint Peter was born. "
     
    Francis then encourages them "to continue their mission of reconciliation among all the faithful, whatever their sensitivity". It can not be treated, logically, more than reconciliation with the conciliar Church and the new rite. Here is the proof: "That celebrating the Sacred Mysteries according to the extraordinary form of the Roman rite (Mass of St. Pius V) and the orientations of the Constitution on the Sacrosanctum Concilium Liturgy (arising from Vatican II), as well as transmitting the apostolic faith which is presented in the Catechism of the catholic (conciliar) Church, contribute, in fidelity to the living Tradition of the Church, to a better understanding and application of the Second Vatican Council ".
     
    conclusion
     
    Bishop Lefebvre was quite right in stating that the Roman commission ( Ecclesia Dei ) is in charge of recovering the traditionalists to submit them to the Council.
    The mission of the commission Ecclesia Dei , from July 2, 1988, is then to reconcile the priests and faithful attached to the work of Bishop Lefebvre with the conciliar Church.
     
    With this objective, she continues her mission even now: the "recovery" of the priests and faithful of the SSPX and their friendly communities to stop the fight of the Faith.
     
    May all those who imagine that there is a vocation identity between the Ecclesia Dei institutes and the SSPX open their eyes. The Ecclesia Dei commission and the institutes attached to it are a great danger to the work founded by Bishop Marcel Lefebvre. They have the vocation to neutralize, paralyze and dissolve it.
     
    This is clearly inscribed in the founding texts of this commission. Against factum, non fit argumentum. Against the facts, there is nothing to replicate.
     
    P. Guy Castelain +  
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    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #108 on: January 20, 2019, 08:08:31 PM »
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  • Yes all 3 of those legal docuмents are related, but they are legal trickery.  Yes, I agree that these laws are trying to trick people into accepting the new mass, but no one has to accept the V2 heresies, either morally or legally.  Much likes states which impose illegal gun registration on their citizens, even though the Constitution allows free ownership (without registration), so these laws seek to put limits on the True Mass, which has a papal permission "in perpetuity".

    Let's look at it another way.  The indult was started in the 80s right?  The new mass was started in 1969.  So we're talking about a period of 15 or so years where the new mass was "illegal", right?  Then the indult came along and mass was now "available", with restrictions, right?

    If this is so, why did Pope Benedict say in his "motu" of 2007 that the 1962 missal "was always allowed"?  If it was always allowed, then why did we need the indult laws?

    The truth of the matter is that the indult laws are overruled by Quo Primum's perpetual permission of the latin mass, which is why the latin mass was "always allowed".  

    Offline nottambula

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #109 on: January 20, 2019, 09:28:05 PM »
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  • The Psalm 129 blogger, and also Louie Verrecchio, are wearing rose-colored glasses!


    https://psalm129.wordpress.com/2019/01/21/contra-fellay/

    Contra Fellay?
    Ecclesia Dei is no more. Most conciliar commentators have argued this is “no big deal” and that there’s “no reason to panic,” it’s just a re-shuffling of the Vatican’s bloated bureaucracy.

    Riiiight.

    Since when have things of this magnitude become a matter of just shrugging our shoulders and acting like nothing happened? Francis is a Machiavellian pope who does everything for a very specific reason. My guess is most people on the inside know exactly why this was done and what it means but are trying to keep things relatively quiet.

    Psalm 129 believes that one possibility Ecclesia Dei is no more is that Fr. Pagliarani told Cardinal Ladaria, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, during their November meeting that he’s not interested in pursuing the Fellay approach (i.e. just recognize us as we are!) Rather, the SSPX wants Rome to come back to the true doctrine of the past.

    That this is what Fr. Pagliarani told the Cardinal is a total guess, to be sure, but recent interviews Fr. has given indicate he is interested in putting doctrine first ahead of a practical arrangement. See here and here.

    It’s also possible that after hearing this from Cardinal Ladaria, Pope Francis threw a temper tantrum and said something along the lines of “They want to talk doctrine? Alright, let’s talk doctrine!”

    That Francis is thinking this seems to be confirmed by the announcement that abolished Ecclesia Dei, which said “The aims and questions dealt with by the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei are of a predominantly doctrinal order,” and these “aims” should “be made ever more evident to the conscience of the ecclesial communities” in the Church.

    In other words, Francis is taking the SSPX up on its offer to discuss doctrine, but he is going to do it in his way, and that means, doing so more publicly. Play time is over, in other words, and Francis is going to dig in his heels and start bomb throwing, just like how he did with the countless other semi-traditional religious orders be has destroyed.

    Blogger Louie Verrechio seems to think this is what’s going on as well. He put it this way on this site AKA Catholic:

    So, what does this portend? Again, we will have to wait and see, but it very well may mean that the days of behind-the-scenes negotiating sessions between the Roman modernists and the SSPX are over. It could be that Bergoglio wants all to see just how unreasonable, intolerant, rigid, triumphalistic, behind the times, and let us not forget, anti-Semitic, the Society and others who think like them truly are. 

    To what purpose? To discredit, not just the Society, but tradition itself in the eyes of the world; setting it up for persecution by the leaders of the one-world government that he is so pleased to serve.

    Lost in all of the hubbub here is just how much it appears Fr. Pagliarani is diverging from his liberal predecessor.

    Indeed, in the SSPX’s official response to Ecclesia Dei’s abolishing, one finds words that reflect how the Archbishop approached the Conciliar Church. Here is the most important part of the SSPX’s statement:

    The so-called Ecclesia Dei communities…clearly do not count in this discussion. They can have the Mass, the “spiritual and liturgical traditions”, but not the whole doctrine that goes along with them.

    That has always been the Society of St. Pius X’s great reproach against Dom Gérard and all those who thought they should break the unity of Tradition in order to negotiate a purely practical agreement. The crisis of the Church cannot be reduced to a spiritual or liturgical question alone. It is deeper, for it touches the very heart of the Faith and the doctrine of Revelation…

    Is this not a complete and utter break with the Trad-ecuмenism of Bishop Fellay? Is this not a stark reminder of the real problems with the FSSP, ICKSP, etc. and how they aren’t SSPX friends but traitors? Is not the condemnation of those who sought out a “purely practical agreement” a harkening back to the SSPX of old? Yes, yes, and yes.

    Be that as it may, Brian McCall at Catholic Family News is claiming that  the SSPX statement “also reaffirms the position of the SSPX that difficulties between the SSPX and the Roman authorities are primarily doctrinal.” Sorry Brian. But under Bishop Fellay, the issue was not “primarily doctrinal.” With Bishop Fellay, it was always about how Rome viewed the SSPX as Catholic and that Francis is truly our friend and that the SSPX has allies everywhere, therefore, we must make a practical deal now and convert the Church later from within.

    It will be interesting to see how long the lie of “continuity” between Fellay and Pagliarani goes on for. The liberals in the SSPX must be concerned with the way things are heading. If Fellay was still in control, it isn’t hard to imagine in response to the abolition of Ecclesia Dei, he’d say something like “We thank the Holy Father for streamlining this complex process and trying to bring a resolution to our situation. It is a matter of justice we be seen as Catholic. We appreciate his fatherly affection for us, especially for granting our priests confession.” Nothing, you’d expect, would be said about how the Ecclesia Dei groups are deficient or how the those who sought a “practical agreement” with Rome in the past “broke the unity of Tradition.”

    If the first several months of Fr. Pagliarani’s reign were perhaps underwhelming, his strong emphasis on the need for the Pope to return to Tradition and his apparent making of doctrine pre-eminent above a practical arrangement is a possible sign liberalism may be on its way out in the highest levels of the SSPX. It is now up to the Superior General to make sure liberalism is driven out of the SSPX completely. And that is a much taller order. Only time will tell.


    "I think that he [Pope Benedict] was pushed... he semi-resigned... he didn't completely resign, he semi-resigned... he made way for another pope to take his place... but he kept, nevertheless, the white habit, he kept various things of the Papacy." - Bishop Williamson


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #110 on: January 20, 2019, 11:45:01 PM »
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  • The Psalm 129 blogger, and also Louie Verrecchio, are wearing rose-colored glasses!


    https://psalm129.wordpress.com/2019/01/21/contra-fellay/
    .....................

    If the first several months of Fr. Pagliarani’s reign were perhaps underwhelming, his strong emphasis on the need for the Pope to return to Tradition and his apparent making of doctrine pre-eminent above a practical arrangement is a possible sign liberalism may be on its way out in the highest levels of the SSPX. It is now up to the Superior General to make sure liberalism is driven out of the SSPX completely. And that is a much taller order. Only time will tell.
    I'm alright with a little optimism. It would be terrible for many, many souls if the SSPX continued to sink. This post is cautiously optimistic that the SSPX might be rekindling old positions more in line with Archbishop Lefebvre and I don't see anything wrong with that!
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline nottambula

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #111 on: January 21, 2019, 03:25:58 AM »
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  • I'm alright with a little optimism. It would be terrible for many, many souls if the SSPX continued to sink. This post is cautiously optimistic that the SSPX might be rekindling old positions more in line with Archbishop Lefebvre and I don't see anything wrong with that!

    Maybe the Psalm 129 blogger wrote a day too soon. News that the SSPX has now acquired a Conciliar bishop (reported only one day after the dissolution of Ecclesia Dei--that in itself an ominous sign, since it was yet one more 'gift' to the SSPX from His Humbleness), doesn't exactly inspire confidence that things are headed back in the right direction. Do we really think +Fellay is out of the picture now? No way. Rorate Caeli's report is correct in that the SSPX is "fast reaching full regularization by installments", and so it saddens me to see those who are holding on to false hope, even still.
    "I think that he [Pope Benedict] was pushed... he semi-resigned... he didn't completely resign, he semi-resigned... he made way for another pope to take his place... but he kept, nevertheless, the white habit, he kept various things of the Papacy." - Bishop Williamson

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #112 on: January 21, 2019, 05:45:22 AM »
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  • Yes all 3 of those legal docuмents are related, but they are legal trickery.  Yes, I agree that these laws are trying to trick people into accepting the new mass, but no one has to accept the V2 heresies, either morally or legally.  Much likes states which impose illegal gun registration on their citizens, even though the Constitution allows free ownership (without registration), so these laws seek to put limits on the True Mass, which has a papal permission "in perpetuity".

    Let's look at it another way.  The indult was started in the 80s right?  The new mass was started in 1969.  So we're talking about a period of 15 or so years where the new mass was "illegal", right?  Then the indult came along and mass was now "available", with restrictions, right?

    If this is so, why did Pope Benedict say in his "motu" of 2007 that the 1962 missal "was always allowed"?  If it was always allowed, then why did we need the indult laws?

    The truth of the matter is that the indult laws are overruled by Quo Primum's perpetual permission of the latin mass, which is why the latin mass was "always allowed".  


    Precisely. They are "real trickery" but it is a fact that those who accept this "trickery" have in fact accepted the "V2 heresies and the Novus Ordo" in principle in order to use the 1962 missal. Even Summorum Pontificuм makes this quite clear. The article is interesting because it shows the relationship between the three indults consistently referencing the first indult Quattour Abhinc Annos of 1984 directly or indirectly.

    But is it the Missal of Pius V they are talking about in these three indults? Or is it "real trickery"? Why is the 1962 mentioned in all? Why are all the indult communities mandated to use that missal? And their priests ordained specifically to say this missal? Why is it that the Institute of the Good Sheppard which had been regularized previous to Summorum Pontificuм was coerced (by Ecclesia Dei) around 5-6 years ago into being regulated by Summorum Pontificuм instead of the old agreement to just use the traditional Mass? And lastly, why is it that Rome convinced AB Lefebvre to sign an agreement to always do the 1962 missal?

    Quattour Abhinc Annos makes it a condition that "these celebrations must be according to the 1962 Missal."

    You are correct about permission "in perpetuity" as far as the traditional Roman Rite. But again, is the 1962 the "traditional Roman Rite"? If it was, it could not possibly be the subject of an indult. Don't be fooled by the "trickery" of BXVI in S.P. His goal and the goal of all the post V2 popes is to bring those who need this legal "trickery" back to the Novus Ordo.
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #113 on: January 21, 2019, 06:29:14 AM »
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  • And lastly, why is it that Rome convinced AB Lefebvre to sign an agreement to always do the 1962 missal?

    Excellent question, Maria.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #114 on: January 21, 2019, 09:52:37 AM »
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  • Quote
    But again, is the 1962 the "traditional Roman Rite"?
    You keep bringing up this question without a shred of evidence to prove it isn’t, other than your own opinion.  Is there one Vatican official, ever, to suggest that the 62 missal isn’t legal?

    Secondly, as far as mass is concerned, the only change of any substance is the addition of St Jospeh - all other changes aren’t essential.  And even the addition of St Joseph was added AFTER the actual 62 law, so it’s debatable if it’s even part of Quo Primum’s legal child, or an additional change which doesn’t have the same obligation to follow.  (Many priests don’t include his name for this reason so the 62 missal is basically the same as the previous one).

    So we're left with the changes to the calendar and Holy Week as to how to decide if the 62 missal is “received and approved” (which, mind you, if you believe John XXIII was pope, then you have NO RIGHT to even question the above).  ...But the mass is the same as the previous missal, (if you don’t include St Joseph) right?  So how is the 62 missal not ok?  

    This is like the 5th time I’ve asked.

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #115 on: January 21, 2019, 11:07:15 AM »
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  • Pax,

    We both have opinions but you are fixated in yours. You want to believe BXVI's "trickery" that is the same missal as the Pius V. The 1962 is legal to use because the popes have given indults (which means permission to do something otherwise considered illegal!) for its use.

    In 1986 it was acknowledged by the highest authorities in the Church after JPII's Commission of 9 Cardinals (all with Doctorates in Canon Law) that:

    1) The old Mass was never forbidden to be said by any priest in good standing. Quo Primum was never abrogated.
    2) No one (not even a religious superior, bishop or Cardinal) could forbid a priest from saying the old Mass in public or in private.

    So...why all the indults (1988 & 2007) if the 1962 missal is considered by Rome to be the "received and approved" rite of the Latin Rite?
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #116 on: January 21, 2019, 12:46:12 PM »
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  • You answered your own question. Look at the facts.  Which came first, JPIIs commission or the indults?  The commission did.  What does that mean?  It means that the commission decided BEFORE THE INDULT LAWS EXISTED that the True Mass wasn’t outlawed.  

    That means that the 62 missal wasn’t outlawed and the indults are legal trickery, trying to get people to “ask” for something that they already have the right to have.  The indults were accepted by everyone but Traditionalists because we know that Quo Primum is a higher law.  And since the commission ruled that Quo Primum is still law, and this was again confirmed in 2007 by +Benedict, then this is fact.  

    What we disagree on is which missal is the True Missal.  For some reason (which you’ve yet to explain) you say the 62 missal is illegal, immoral and unusable.  You’ve yet to prove this with any facts.  The legal fact is that if you say that the 62 missal is illegal then you’d have to use Pius Xs missal.  This would be the last valid missal.  Is this your argument?

    If so, then you’d have to say that John XXIII isn’t the pope because his 62 law abrogated Pius Xs missal and does not allow it to be used any longer.  

    Further, earlier on in this debate, it was said that the 62 missal is wrong because Bugnini was involved.  But John XXIII is the one who suspended Bugnini and took him off the liturgical commission, so that argument doesn’t fly.  

    I still don’t understand why you’re against the 62 missal, if you’re not a sedevacantist.

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #117 on: January 21, 2019, 01:32:53 PM »
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  • This is basically what was said and drew has said it better:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/a-step-for-the-regularization-of-the-sspx-dissolution-of-ecclesia-dei/msg638935/#msg638935
    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/a-step-for-the-regularization-of-the-sspx-dissolution-of-ecclesia-dei/msg639133/#msg639133
    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/a-step-for-the-regularization-of-the-sspx-dissolution-of-ecclesia-dei/msg639174/#msg639174
    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/a-step-for-the-regularization-of-the-sspx-dissolution-of-ecclesia-dei/msg639180/#msg639180
    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/a-step-for-the-regularization-of-the-sspx-dissolution-of-ecclesia-dei/msg639181/#msg639181

    I don't think saying anything else would make a difference to you. It won't be long before we KNOW more about the 1962 Missal when the SSPX Prelature is announced and the "New 1962 missal" as approved by BXVI before his retirement comes out. When that happens, the 1962 will have to be abrogated because C. Ratzinger's idea was to "merge the two rites into one". As pope, he approved it.

    We wait and see. And NO, we are NOT sedevacante.
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #118 on: January 21, 2019, 06:35:24 PM »
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  • Any changes to the 62 missal would be a new missal, with a new year.  There’s no such thing as a “new 62 missal”.  That’s an oxymoron.

    Any new missal (from Benedict or otherwise) must be legally put into use.  This promulgation for its use is the most important part because this determines the why, the obligation for its use and how we are to treat the older missals.

    If +Francis comes out with “updates” to the 62 missal this year (we would call it the 2019 missal), then what really matters is 1) if he makes the updates by ABROGATING the entire 1962 missal and commanding that the new 2019 missal is ONLY to be used.  Or 2) if he just comes out with changes or a new hybrid version between the 62 and the new mass, and does NOT ABROGATE the 62 missal, but simply creates a new missal like Paul VI, with no obligations for anyone to use it.  

    If he does the latter, then no one has to pay any concern to it, since there’s no obligation to.  If he tries to do the former, then we’ll have to read the law and see what it says, exactly.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #119 on: January 21, 2019, 07:54:15 PM »
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  • Quote
    When that happens, the 1962 will have to be abrogated because C. Ratzinger's idea was to "merge the two rites into one". As pope, he approved it.
    1.  If a new hybrid 62-new mass missal is released, that doesn’t mean that the 62 missal is abrogated, unless the law specially says so.  When Paul VI issued the new mass, he didn’t abrogate the 62 missal so abrogation cannot be assumed; it must be clearly spelled out in the law.  

    2.  Even if Pope Benedict put the new hybrid missal together, since he did not issue it under his papacy, then he did not “approve” it, formally and legally speaking.  When/If a new hybrid missal is issued, it will be approved by +Francis, because he’s the pope (in theory).  It doesn’t matter when the missal was put together, it matters when the law that issues the missal is put in force.