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Author Topic: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei  (Read 27584 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2019, 02:51:12 PM »
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    Why not just wait until "the Church settles this matter in a saner day", and in the meantime do as St. Vincent of Lerins says: "Cleave unto antiquity" and go back to the 1954 Missal?

    Because not all changes/updates to the missal are wrong; some are very necessary - like adding saints to the calendar or simplifying the feast day hierarchies (both of which the 1962 missal did, as Fr Wathen pointed out).

    Pope St Pius X completely overhauled the Breviary 100 years ago?  I mean, the changes he made were DRASTIC.  The breviary/Divine Office today is NOTHING like it was before his changes.  Can we say that Pope St Pius X's changes were anti-Tradition or that what he did was anti-antiquity?  Of course not.

    Further, what about the 1954 missal?  What missal came before it?  Why is the 1954 missal allowed to have changes/updates but the 1962 missal cannot?  What are you comparing the changes against, to make your determination of what is acceptable or not?

    The only way to have a "litmus test" on missal changes, is 1) to realize that a pope has the power over the liturgy, in all non-essential, non-Divine origin matters and 2) if the prayers/rubrics are of human/Church origin (and not Apostolic/Divine origin) then the Church/pope can change these.


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #61 on: January 08, 2019, 03:51:14 PM »
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  • We know the 1954 or earlier are "the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church", many Catholics don't have that certainty about the 1962. Not after reading Bugnini's own book. A transitional missal by his own admission. Anyhow, the divine warnings were given after the previous reforms and I believe it won't be long before we learn more about the 1962.
     

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    Canon 13, 7th Session of the Council of Trent says:  “If anyone says that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administrations of the sacraments, may be condemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed by any pastor of the churches whomsoever into new ones; let him be anathema.” 

    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #62 on: January 08, 2019, 04:11:17 PM »
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    We know the 1954 or earlier are "the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church",

    How?  Why can Pius XII make changes to St Pius V's missal but John XXIII cannot?  Didn't Bugnini start his "updates" in the 40s?  


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    In Pius XII Mediator Dei lists and censors numerous explicit liturgical acts that the reformers were already, not just contemplating, but implementing by the early 1950 in liturgical experimentation.
    Drew said the above.  If this is true, then my question is:

    Isn't the 1954 missal part of Bugnini's updates, therefore just as wrong as the 1962 missal?  How can you say that Bugnini's updates in 1954 are ok but his updates in 62 are wrong?  Please be specific.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #63 on: January 08, 2019, 05:09:40 PM »
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  • How?  Why can Pius XII make changes to St Pius V's missal but John XXIII cannot?  Didn't Bugnini start his "updates" in the 40s?  

    Drew said the above.  If this is true, then my question is:

    Isn't the 1954 missal part of Bugnini's updates, therefore just as wrong as the 1962 missal?  How can you say that Bugnini's updates in 1954 are ok but his updates in 62 are wrong?  Please be specific.
    No Bugmini's influence started with 1955.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #64 on: January 08, 2019, 05:23:16 PM »
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  • Correct. AB Bugnini was commissioned in 1948 by Pius XII to head the liturgical reform but the changes were not implemented until 1955.
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #65 on: January 08, 2019, 05:53:42 PM »
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  • Ok but you still have to show that the changes made to the 1955 and 1962 missal are wrong, are a new theology and/or teach new doctrine.  This is because, even if Bugnini was the re-incarnation of Martin Luther, his changes were reviewed/approved by the pope, who has the authority to make changes to the liturgy.  

    How do we know that what Bugnini first proposed in 62 wasn’t super-heretical (like the Novus Ordo) but John XXIII rejected the major changes and just implanted one’s that were minor?  We don’t. Does it matter?  No.  All the matters is the end result - which changes of 62 are not major, even if Bugnini was involved.  

    Until you start giving SPECIFIC examples of doctrinal/theological/heretical changes in 1962, then your arguments are baseless.  

    You are arguing against Bugnini as if he was caught planning a murder that didn’t take place until later.  I ask, was he guilty of conspiring to kill the liturgy?  Yes. When did he kill the liturgy?  1969.  You would say, What about all the preliminary attempts in 62?    I answer - did anyone die in 62?  No.  So he can only be guilty of conspiracy, he can’t be guilt of murder until 1969.  This is when his plan was realized, not before. 

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #66 on: January 08, 2019, 07:36:34 PM »
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  • We know that the 1954 or earlier are "the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church". As my husband explain in the footnote quoted in the link below: " It is a fact that the 1962 Missal has never been afforded the standing of Immemorial Tradition by Rome.  Every papal docuмent touching upon this Missal treats it entirely as a subject of Church discipline governed entirely by human positive law first under the norms of Ecclesia Dei as an Indult and now under the restrictive legal stipulations of Summorum Pontificuм as a grant of privilege by positive law.  At no time in the history of the Church has an immemorial liturgical tradition been reduced to the status of an Indult, which is the permission to do something that is not permitted by the positive law of the Church.  This constitutes presumptive proof that Rome does not regard the 1962 Missal as the Immemorial Roman Rite." (The received and approved").

    Now there are "massive liturgical changes" coming to the 1962 as approved by Summorum Pontificuм and it explanatory letter Universae Ecclessiae (of Benedict XVI, NOT Francis) though "more drastic than what was envisaged" but its purpose has always been to bring the 1962 missal back to the Novus Ordo while still calling it the "1962" missal. The article below is what all the recent  news are about. Does that sound to you as the "received and approved rite of the catholic Church? And if the pope is as the SSPX believes, "the Master of the liturgy" and as you said:  "...even if Bugnini was the re-incarnation of Martin Luther, his changes were reviewed/approved by the pope, who has the authority to make changes to the liturgy." Well Benedict, as the "master of the liturgy" had, in your opinion and the SSPX, "the authority to make changes to the 1962 missal" so why not accept it.

    I really believe that the truth about the 1962 missal will be revealed soon. Just wait one or two years when the exeption for the Prelature expires.


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    http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com/2017/10/breaking-news-massive-liturgical.html
     
    Massive liturgical changes expected in 2018!
    Reliable sources close to the Holy See have indicated that sometime in the second half of 2018, the Novus Ordo Lectionary and Calendar are to be imposed upon the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Mass.
     
    The new Roman Missal will become available on the First Sunday of Advent 2018 but the Vatican will allow a two-year period to phase it in. These changes are expected to be much more drastic than what was envisaged in Universae Ecclesiae that states:
    25. New saints and certain of the new prefaces can and ought to be inserted into the 1962 Missal, according to provisions which will be indicated subsequently. (emphasis ours)
    The Vatican approved societies and institutes, such as the Fraternity of Saint Peter and the Institute of Christ the King, will likely apply for exemptions, but all requests are expected to be turned down. The only exception seems to be the SSPX, which might be granted a temporary exemption, to ensure that an agreement is reached between the SSPX and Rome.
     

    [/url]
    Quote
       Msgr. Annibale Bugnini, an alleged Mason, directed the liturgical reform from 1948 until 1976.  The 1962 Missal, issued at the mid-point of his liturgical tenure, existed only about 2½ years.  It was regarded by Bugnini, who took credit for its authorship, as only a transitional Missal toward his ultimate goal of the Novus Ordo.  Pope Benedict XVI in Summorum Pontificuм said that the relationship of the 1962 Missal to the Novus Ordo is one of organic development, that “They are, in fact two usages of the one Roman rite.”
        This is true statement for Bugnini said in his book, The Reform of the Liturgy, 1948-1976, that the first principles of liturgical reform adopted by his commission, first principles that were novel, artificial ideological constructs, guided his work and remained absolutely consistent throughout his entire tenure.  The first principles guiding the formation of the 1962 Missal are the same principles that would give us the Novus Ordo.  When Bugnini was asked if the 1962 Missal represented the end of his liturgical innovations he said, “Not by any stretch of the imagination. Every good builder begins by removing the gross accretions, the evident distortions; then with more delicacy and attention he sets out to revise particulars.  The latter remains to be achieved for the Liturgy so that the fullness, dignity and harmony may shine forth once again” (The Organic Development of the Liturgy by Fr. Alcuin Reid).  Thus such feasts as the Solemnity of St. Joseph, the Chair of St. Peter at Rome, the Finding of the True Cross, St. John before the Latin Gate, and many, many other liturgical changes, considered “gross accretions and evident distortions” by those who would eventually give the Church the liturgical “fullness, dignity and harmony” of the Novus Ordo, were done away with in the 1962 Missal.
        It is a fact that the 1962 Missal has never been afforded the standing of Immemorial Tradition by Rome.  Every papal docuмent touching upon this Missal treats it entirely as a subject of Church discipline governed entirely by human positive law first under the norms of Ecclesia Dei as an Indult and now under the restrictive legal stipulations of Summorum Pontificuм as a grant of privilege by positive law.  At no time in the history of the Church has an immemorial liturgical tradition been reduced to the status of an Indult, which is the permission to do something that is not permitted by the positive law of the Church.  This constitutes presumptive proof that Rome does not regard the 1962 Missal as the Immemorial Roman Rite.  
        The 1962 Bugnini transitional Missal was adopted by the SSPX in 1983 as their liturgical standard.
     
    ^  footnote of the letter linked below.
    [url]http://www.saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/OPEN%20LETTERS/Culture%20Wars%20reply%20for%20web%20posting%209-10.htm[/url]
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #67 on: January 08, 2019, 08:00:07 PM »
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  • Ok but you still have to show that the changes made to the 1955 and 1962 missal are wrong, are a new theology and/or teach new doctrine.  This is because, even if Bugnini was the re-incarnation of Martin Luther, his changes were reviewed/approved by the pope, who has the authority to make changes to the liturgy.  

    How do we know that what Bugnini first proposed in 62 wasn’t super-heretical (like the Novus Ordo) but John XXIII rejected the major changes and just implanted one’s that were minor?  We don’t. Does it matter?  No.  All the matters is the end result - which changes of 62 are not major, even if Bugnini was involved.  

    Until you start giving SPECIFIC examples of doctrinal/theological/heretical changes in 1962, then your arguments are baseless.  

    You are arguing against Bugnini as if he was caught planning a murder that didn’t take place until later.  I ask, was he guilty of conspiring to kill the liturgy?  Yes. When did he kill the liturgy?  1969.  You would say, What about all the preliminary attempts in 62?    I answer - did anyone die in 62?  No.  So he can only be guilty of conspiracy, he can’t be guilt of murder until 1969.  This is when his plan was realized, not before.
    What about just the changes made to the Good Friday prayer for the Jєωs?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #68 on: January 08, 2019, 08:09:26 PM »
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     It is a fact that the 1962 Missal has never been afforded the standing of Immemorial Tradition by Rome.  Every papal docuмent touching upon this Missal treats it entirely as a subject of Church discipline governed entirely by human positive law first under the norms of Ecclesia Deias an Indult and now under the restrictive legal stipulations of Summorum Pontificuм as a grant of privilege by positive law. 
    This is just absolutely not true.  Pope John XXIII's law of 1962 is a revision of St Pius V's missal.  It precedes the Ecclesia Dei by over 20 years and "S.P." by 40 years.

    You and Drew just keep repeating yourself, with no proof.  Have you ever read the 1962 law change?  I assure you it exists.  


    Offline drew

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #69 on: January 08, 2019, 09:13:52 PM »
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  • This is just absolutely not true.  Pope John XXIII's law of 1962 is a revision of St Pius V's missal.  It precedes the Ecclesia Dei by over 20 years and "S.P." by 40 years.

    You and Drew just keep repeating yourself, with no proof.  Have you ever read the 1962 law change?  I assure you it exists.  

    PAX,

    Let's try a different approach.

    It was, of all people, Ratzinger, who commented that the idea that the liturgy is something that is “received” was done away with by the reformers and in its place developed the concept that the reformers could do whatever they wanted to the liturgy.  This is really the foundation of the Bugnini liturgical reform. It is my opinion that this became the unofficial formal policy after Pius XII in Mediator Dei in which he inverted, what Pope Celestine I called a “dogma of faith”, ‘lex orandi, lex credendi’, the law of prayers determines the law of belief became the ‘law of belief determines the law of prayer’.  

    About six months after the publication of Mediator Dei, the liturgical commission was established by Pius XII with Bugnini as its secretary in 1948.  This commission envisioned the Novus Ordo as its end from the beginning of its work and as Bugnini himself said, the principles of liturgical reform adopted in 1948 remained the same and were consistently and uniformly applied throughout his tenure which ended in 1975.  The first application of the Bugnini reform principles to the Missal was implemented in the 1956.  From the changes in 1956 until the edition of the Missal in 1969 there were constant small changes.  Each change was imposed by the same authority of the pope.  By the time the Novus Ordo was imposed in 1969 almost all the liturgical changes had already been implemented excepting the three additional canons.  The typical parishioner accustomed to liturgical innovation found nothing shocking in the Novus Ordo because they were already doing it.

    You argue that because the pope implemented these changes they should be accepted unless they are, in your personal judgment, harmful.  Therefore you accept all of Bugnini’s changes until 1962 and reject the Bugnini changes after 1962 because you regard them as harmful.  This is the same argument offered by Fr. Williamson in 1962.  It presupposes, as Fr. Williamson said, that the “pope is the master of liturgy” and he can do with it whatever he wants.  That is, the liturgy is a matter of mere discipline.  The problem with the argument is it makes the individual Catholic the “master of the liturgy” because he judges each individual liturgical change implemented by the pope.  This makes you the “master of the liturgy”.  

    Your problem is serious because it is indefensible and makes defending the “received and approved” rites impossible.  I have put before you the same question asked Fr. Richard Williamson in 1983.  On what grounds do you reject the changes of Paul VI that were implemented in 1965 by Sacram Liturgiam and Inter Oecuмenici?  These changes were accepted by Archbishop Lefebvre and used in Econe for many years until 1983.  Fr. Williamson offered no reply.  The same question was put to Fr. Laisney and he offered no reply.  I don’t think that you could reply to this question either.  

    Unlike yourself, I do not place myself as the judge of the pope and his individual liturgical experimentations.  I attend the immemorial “received and approved” rite of Mass before any of the Bugnini changes were imposed.  I do not argue at what stage the Bugnini reform in act formally corrupted the Mass, at what stage it formally ceased to be the “received and approved” Roman rite.  I have already said to my local ordinary that should Rome at some time recognize the 1962 Missal as the normative edition of the “received and approved” rite of Mass, and declare that all the legislative acts that had reduced it to an Indult or a grant of legal privilege were null and void from their inception, and that everyone of the faithful has a right to the “received and approved” rites, then it is the Missal I would accept.  But until then, I assume that the liturgical principles adopted by Bugnini and the Pian Commission constituted a break in the organic development of the liturgy which resulted in the liturgy being relegated to a matter of mere discipline untethered from its dogmatic moorings.  

    But not only has this not been done, it is unlikely to ever be done.  I do not know and neither do you what specific change that occurred between 1956 and 1969 constituted the formal breaking from the “received and approved” rite to the Novus Ordo Missa.  Our opinions are immaterial.  What is most certain is that I am attending the “received and approved” rite because I am attending the Mass that is untouched by Bugnini, and you may not.  What is also certain is that I can defend myself by appealing to dogma for what I do and I can appeal to the manner in which Rome has treated the Missal in its changes since 1956 as a matter of mere discipline open to the free and independent will of the legislator as prima facie evidence that it is not the “received and approved” rite because the “received and approved” rite could never be treated as an Indult or grant of conditional legal privilege.  You cannot.  All you can do is oppose your personal judgment against the current Roman authority as to what is or is not harmful to the liturgy because you have accepted the very first Bugnini principle of liturgical reform.

    This first principle has been accepted by nearly all traditional Catholics.  Those who attend the Latin Mass in the 1962 Bugnini transitional edition accept it as a grant of legal privilege and in doing this they will have no legal or even moral argument when it is taken away, or revised in the "reform of the reform" to incorporate the celebrations of Novus Ordo saints, three years liturgical calendar, vernacular usage, etc.

    Drew  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #70 on: January 08, 2019, 10:17:28 PM »
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    Therefore you accept all of Bugnini’s changes until 1962 and reject the Bugnini changes after 1962 because you regard them as harmful.  
    No, I accept the 62 missal because IT IS A LEGAL REVISION OF QUO PRIMUM.  Regardless of the intention of the changes, regardless of the goal of the changes, regardless of who envisioned the changes, the changes themselves WERE NOT SUBSTANTIVE alterations of the St Pius V missal.  Therefore, the revisions are “approved and received” because in non-doctrinal changes, the pope has authority to chnage the liturgy.  In non-essential matters, yes, the liturgy is a matter of discipline because a lot of the Church’s liturgy is of human origin and development.  

    The changes post 62 don’t have to be accepted because 1) they were not legally part of a revision of Quo Primum, and the docuмents never claimed they were. 2) the changes, therefore, lack the binding and authoritative legal elements that Quo Primum clearly expressed, and 3) Neither John XXIII or Paul VI ever commanded these changes to be accepted by all the Church, under pain of sin (unlike the 62 changes, which are enforced by Quo Primum’s strict regulations.)


    Quote
    Those who attend the Latin Mass in the 1962 Bugnini transitional edition accept it as a grant of legal privilege and in doing this they will have no legal or even moral argument when it is taken away, or revised in the "reform of the reform" to incorporate the celebrations of Novus Ordo saints, three years liturgical calendar, vernacular usage, etc.
    I’ll quote what I already said before.  Please read this slowly and study the legal docuмents.

    Pope John XXIII's law of 1962 is a revision of St Pius V's missal.  It precedes the Ecclesia Dei by over 20 years and "S.P." by 40 years.

    The indult laws of the 80s and 2007 are null and void because they seek to limit the permissions and commands of Quo Primum, which are legally in force “in perpetuity”.  No post 1962 law/pope has EVER revised or ended the law of Quo Primum, as Benedict XVI admitted in his “motu”.  Thus, no Catholic must follow the indults (which are legal word games with no substance or penalty for ignoring them), or needs permission for the TLM because Quo Primum grants a perpetual indult/permission which is based on both doctrine and discipline and is legally binding under pain of sin.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #71 on: January 08, 2019, 10:40:08 PM »
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    Unlike yourself, I do not place myself as the judge of the pope and his individual liturgical experimentations.  I attend the immemorial “received and approved” rite of Mass before any of the Bugnini changes were imposed.

    I do too, however, for different reasons.

    The Pope of Rome, as the legitimate successor of St. Peter, does have the right to introduce new Liturgical Rites or make changes to existing ones. If Paul VI is true Pope, then he would be at the exact same level as his predecessor, Pope Pius V. In the continuity of our Holy Religion, they are not different. To both, the entire management of the Church on earth was given by Christ. Why would you accept the changes of the pre-Tridentine Mass in the Roman Rite introduced by Pope Pius V in 1570, for example, and then reject the changes of his equal, in 1962?

    You keep saying "the immemorial received and approved" rites of Mass. What do you even mean by that? Approved by who? Without the living Pope as supreme authority on these matters, such immemorial "received and approved" rite of Mass in the Roman rite would probably be the pre-Tridentine Mass before 1570, not even the Tridentine Mass of Pius V with Quo Primum.



    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #72 on: January 08, 2019, 10:48:46 PM »
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  • Drew, you also keep repeating that the heretical intentions of Bugnini make his (minor) changes in 62 also heretical.  This makes no sense.  

    If a heretic or atheist’s evil intentions don’t affect their administration of baptism and which is valid so long as the process is followed then the evil intentions of Bugnini don’t affect his changes of the liturgy so long as the changes were minor (ie not affecting doctrine or theology) and the pope approved them legally.  

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #73 on: January 08, 2019, 10:56:46 PM »
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  • You argue that because the pope implemented these changes they should be accepted unless they are, in your personal judgment, harmful.  Therefore you accept all of Bugnini’s changes until 1962 and reject the Bugnini changes after 1962 because you regard them as harmful.  
    You keep arguing that the liturgy is "not mere discipline", yet everyone here says that.

    The 1962 liturgy came about in traditional communities for mostly prudential reasons. When the SSPX grew to the point that some uniformity in the liturgy was needed (especially for the breviary so the priests could pray together), the Archbishop, as superior general, made a decision. And the quasi-1962 liturgy was adopted by most other traditional communities associated with the SSPX. I'll only speak for myself, but he could have decided on 1965, or 1955, or 1935, or 1905, or perhaps even 1570, and it would still have been the traditional Mass.

    But it seems to me you should have a problem with the revision of the breviary by St. Pius X. Before St. Pius X, matins had 12 psalms, something constant for >1000 years of history going back to at least the rule of St. Benedict, and three psalms at the end of lauds (I think) everyday had >1500 years of history and probably dated from the ѕуηαgσgυє before Christ. St. Pius X changed matins to 9 psalms and did away with the psalms at the end of lauds. These substantially changed how the breviary looked. How do you understand these changes?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #74 on: January 08, 2019, 10:57:20 PM »
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    Without the Pope as supreme authority on these matters, such immemorial "received and approved" rite of Mass in the Roman rite would probably be the pre-Tridentine Mass,
    Good point, except the pre-Tridentine mass was revised multiple times by Pope St Gregory in the 400s, so his changes would be null as well.  Then in the 200s and 300s you had the development of the Greek, Syrian, Coptic, Byzantine and Latin rites and these would all have to be rejected too, since if the pope can’t make changes then the only “received and approved” rite would be the Aramaic rite directly from Christ.