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Author Topic: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei  (Read 57872 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2019, 02:51:12 PM »
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Why not just wait until "the Church settles this matter in a saner day", and in the meantime do as St. Vincent of Lerins says: "Cleave unto antiquity" and go back to the 1954 Missal?

Because not all changes/updates to the missal are wrong; some are very necessary - like adding saints to the calendar or simplifying the feast day hierarchies (both of which the 1962 missal did, as Fr Wathen pointed out).

Pope St Pius X completely overhauled the Breviary 100 years ago?  I mean, the changes he made were DRASTIC.  The breviary/Divine Office today is NOTHING like it was before his changes.  Can we say that Pope St Pius X's changes were anti-Tradition or that what he did was anti-antiquity?  Of course not.

Further, what about the 1954 missal?  What missal came before it?  Why is the 1954 missal allowed to have changes/updates but the 1962 missal cannot?  What are you comparing the changes against, to make your determination of what is acceptable or not?

The only way to have a "litmus test" on missal changes, is 1) to realize that a pope has the power over the liturgy, in all non-essential, non-Divine origin matters and 2) if the prayers/rubrics are of human/Church origin (and not Apostolic/Divine origin) then the Church/pope can change these.

Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2019, 03:51:14 PM »

We know the 1954 or earlier are "the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church", many Catholics don't have that certainty about the 1962. Not after reading Bugnini's own book. A transitional missal by his own admission. Anyhow, the divine warnings were given after the previous reforms and I believe it won't be long before we learn more about the 1962.
 

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Canon 13, 7th Session of the Council of Trent says:  “If anyone says that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administrations of the sacraments, may be condemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed by any pastor of the churches whomsoever into new ones; let him be anathema.” 



Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2019, 04:11:17 PM »
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We know the 1954 or earlier are "the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church",

How?  Why can Pius XII make changes to St Pius V's missal but John XXIII cannot?  Didn't Bugnini start his "updates" in the 40s?  


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In Pius XII Mediator Dei lists and censors numerous explicit liturgical acts that the reformers were already, not just contemplating, but implementing by the early 1950 in liturgical experimentation.
Drew said the above.  If this is true, then my question is:

Isn't the 1954 missal part of Bugnini's updates, therefore just as wrong as the 1962 missal?  How can you say that Bugnini's updates in 1954 are ok but his updates in 62 are wrong?  Please be specific.

Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2019, 05:09:40 PM »
How?  Why can Pius XII make changes to St Pius V's missal but John XXIII cannot?  Didn't Bugnini start his "updates" in the 40s?  

Drew said the above.  If this is true, then my question is:

Isn't the 1954 missal part of Bugnini's updates, therefore just as wrong as the 1962 missal?  How can you say that Bugnini's updates in 1954 are ok but his updates in 62 are wrong?  Please be specific.
No Bugmini's influence started with 1955.

Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2019, 05:23:16 PM »

Correct. AB Bugnini was commissioned in 1948 by Pius XII to head the liturgical reform but the changes were not implemented until 1955.