Author Topic: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei  (Read 13953 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2019, 07:40:02 PM »
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  • So if I'm understanding the last post correctly, the plan is to get rid of the old indults to make way for the new indult: the SSPX?
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #16 on: January 01, 2019, 08:19:27 PM »
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  • Apparently +Benedict’s “motu” would be discarded and the TLM for all the dioceses would be stopped.  The only churches where the TLM would be offered would be the new prelature, which would include the sspx, FSSP and all the other indults combined.  It would probably have a new name as well.  

    Traditio has long said that they think +Fellay would be in charge of this new, mega-indult “order”.  His “50 pieces of silver” payment for betraying Tradition.  Time will tell.  


    Offline poche

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #17 on: January 01, 2019, 10:34:30 PM »
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  • Time to trash the 1962 Transitional Missal (Extraordinary Form of the Novus Ordo)
    and claim the pre-Bugnini by right.


    http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2018/12/a-pact-between-pope-francis-and-society.html#more

    Monday, December 31, 2018
    A Pact Between Pope Francis and the Society of Saint Pius X for the Isolation of Tradition?

    Is Pope Francis preparing to eliminate the Ecclesia Dei communities with the help of the Pius Brotherhood?

    (Rome) More and more voices are dealing with the rumors that the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei is about to be dissolved.

    The two authors Fabrizio Cannone and Alessandro Rico see it as a papal maneuver to assassinate tradition from behind. Anzeige Fabrizio Cannone, born in 1974, holds a Doctorate in Church History and Religious Studies, and has written for Corrispondenza Romana, Fides Catholica, Homme Nouveau and numerous other Catholic media. Most recently, he published the book: "The Inconvenient Pope. History and background of the beatification of Pius IX." (1)

    Alessandro Rico, born in 1991, studied philosophy at the Sapienza and Political History of Ideas at the LUISS in Rome. In 2017 he published together with Lorenzo Castellani the book "The end of politics? Technocracy, Populism, Multiculturalism". (2) He calls himself a "Catholic, Conservative and Opponent of Political Correctness". Both are close to the Catholic tradition.



    In recent days, the rumors have been nearly confirmed that Pope Francis in January 2019 will dissolve the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei and their tasks will be transferred to the Congregation of the Faith.



    The Commission Ecclesia Dei was established in 1988 by John Paul II. It became the roof for the then and later emerging communities of tradition that remained in unity with Rome, when Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the newly-consecrated bishops of the Society of St. Pius X (FSSPX) were declared excommunicated by Rome.

    With the election of Benedict XVI. in addition, it was entrusted with discussions with the Society in preparation for reconciliation and canonical recognition. The Commission, headed by Curial Archbishop Guido Pozzo as Secretary, is also responsible for questions on the traditional form of the Roman Rite.

    "Although Pozzo is not an ultra-conservative," the authors said, he has worked hard to bring the Society back into unity with Rome. "In the past, he rebuked the prelates who opposed the Tridentine Mass, which he regularly celebrates, so that he is a reference point for those who are still attached to the ancient Rite."

    Pope Francis' new measure would therefore affect especially Archbishop Pozzo, who "was never disobedient to the Church". The Pope knows that the prelate would also submit to a dismissal from his present task without resistance.

    However, Monsignor Pozzo was not only very popular with Pope Francis, but also - albeit for other reasons - with the Society. Both sides do not bother with the person, but with the institution he represents, with which the popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI. have institutionalized tradition.  Pope Francis, because he sees neither need for this institutionalization nor understanding of the tradition.

    In the past, he spoke of a "temporary fashion" that he could not understand. The Society is struck by this, because it sees itself as the exclusive patron of tradition, recognizing "competition" in the Commission of Ecclesia Dei and the Ecclesia Dei communities. There are resentments that go back to the year 1988, when the Motu proprio Ecclesia Dei was seen as a Roman countermeasure to the Society. This view is still to be found in the Society 30 years later.

    The Society has petitioned in Rome its desire to be able to talk directly with the Congregation of the Faith, and not with the subordinate commission Ecclesia Dei.

    At the same time Francis tries to play the two traditionalist souls against each other. He relied on the desire for revenge by the Society against the resulting "competition" of the Ecclesia Dei communities. The Society, according to the assessment of Francis, also felt "more and more pressure" to come to an agreement with Rome.  Only three bishops have  remained since the expulsion of Richard Williamson, whose ages are 73, 61 and 60. In the Society there is a desire for more bishops.

    If everything does not start all over again in 1988, it needs the consent of the ruling Pope. The authors underline that it is understandable in this context that in the circles of the Ecclesia Dei communities, the apparently imminent dissolution of the Ecclesia Dei Commission is understood as a "pact between Lefebvrians and Francis to the detriment of the other communities of tradition".  And further:

    In 2017, in a RAI interview, the progressive liturgist Andrea Grillo demanded that the traditional Rite be allowed only for a small, well-defined group that was to be strictly defined and controlled. His words were understood by observers as a requirement to create a closely guarded, exotic reserve for the Society of Saint Pius X, while the other communities of tradition now in unity with Rome should be deprived of their right to exist. Rico and Cannone are of the opinion that Pope Francis has made this demand his strategy with the aim of first eliminating the Ecclesia Dei communities with the help of the Society and then putting the Society on a short leash. They conclude with a question which, even after almost six years of Pope Francis' pontificate, has found no real answer:

    "But why so much acrimony against the Tridentine Mass? The Catholic Church, shaken by sexual scandals and the plague of homosexual, pedophile priests, has very different concerns to worry about. In the Vatican, however, it still seems to be a priority to punish the Lord's Prayer, the cassock and receiving Communion while kneeling on the tongue. "
    Text: Giuseppe Nardi
    Image: La Verità (screenshot) ______________________________
    Trans: Tancred vekron99@hotmail.com
    I don't think that is likely to happen. People tend to vote with their feet. What will happen is that more people will be going to the TLM and then they will have to realize that novelties and are going to have to be the thing of the past and there will be more of a move toward reverence for what is holy. 

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #18 on: January 02, 2019, 12:10:48 AM »
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  • People have been saying that for 50 yrs

    Offline poche

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #19 on: January 02, 2019, 01:08:42 AM »
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  • This is why I believe that the TLM is here to stay;

    In contrast, the “traditionalist” communities, where priests primarily celebrate Mass in the Old Rite, are continuing to grow. La Croix calculates that 20 per cent of new priests this year come from communities classed as “traditional” or “classical”.
    These include three ordinations for the Institute of the Good Shepherd, two for the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter (FSSP) and two for the Institute of Christ the King. Younger priests are particularly well-represented among these groups.

    https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2018/07/04/58-french-dioceses-have-no-ordinations-this-year/?fbclid=IwAR3kp5llUDsYO5xkFzQN6nhdUMhga5Gy3KYlhfYk9SWETC_jZocdhhoFEgI

    These statistics are not counting anything happening in the SSPX.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #20 on: January 02, 2019, 04:36:58 AM »
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  • Apparently +Benedict’s “motu” would be discarded and the TLM for all the dioceses would be stopped.  The only churches where the TLM would be offered would be the new prelature, which would include the sspx, FSSP and all the other indults combined.  It would probably have a new name as well.  

    Traditio has long said that they think +Fellay would be in charge of this new, mega-indult “order”.  His “50 pieces of silver” payment for betraying Tradition.  Time will tell.  
    Did you read this portion of the last update in this thread?  It seems to suggest getting rid of the other indults so that there is only one, the SSPX:


    In 2017, in a RAI interview, the progressive liturgist Andrea Grillo demanded that the traditional Rite be allowed only for a small, well-defined group that was to be strictly defined and controlled. His words were understood by observers as a requirement to create a closely guarded, exotic reserve for the Society of Saint Pius X, while the other communities of tradition now in unity with Rome should be deprived of their right to exist. Rico and Cannone are of the opinion that Pope Francis has made this demand his strategy with the aim of first eliminating the Ecclesia Dei communities with the help of the Society and then putting the Society on a short leash.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #21 on: January 02, 2019, 10:21:28 AM »
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  • This seems to be the fulfillment of what Bishop Fellay explained back in 2016 in which only Tradition will exist only in the "Super diocese":

    https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/09/for-record-bishop-fellay-explains-what.html


    [ . . . ] Rome is offering us a new structure. At its head will be a
    bishop, chosen by the Pope
    from a list of three Society members, named
    by the Society. He will have authority over priests, over any religious
    wanting to join the new structure and over Catholics belonging to the
    new structure. These will have an absolute right to receive from Society
     priests all the sacraments, including marriage. This bishop will be
    able to set up schools and seminaries, to ordain ( priests ), to
    establish new religious Congregations. The structure will be like a
    super-diocese, independent of all local bishops. In other words, for you
     faithful, there will be no change from what you are already enjoying
    with the Society. The only difference will be that you will be
    officially recognized
    as Catholics.

    "You can easily imagine that
    there will be clashes with the local bishops. So we must be prudent, but
     as things stand you cannot imagine anything better than this offer,
    which is such that you cannot think it is a trap. It is not a trap , and
     if anyone makes us such an offer it can only be because he wishes us
    well .
    He wants Tradition to prosper and to flourish within the Church.
    It is impossible that such an offer could come from our enemies. They
    have many other ways to crush us, but not that way [ . . . ].
    (Aug, 24,
    2016, Conference New Zealand)

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #22 on: January 02, 2019, 10:26:33 AM »
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  • Quote
    Did you read this portion of the last update in this thread?  It seems to suggest getting rid of the other indults so that there is only one, the SSPX:

    Right, so any priest of the FSSP or the ICK who wants to stay "traditional" will just join the new-sspx.  This new-sspx will be the only TLM game in town.  It will be easier for modernist rome to control and it will be "game over" for the TLM in the local dioceses. 


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #23 on: January 02, 2019, 10:36:48 AM »
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  • Quote
    Rome is offering us a new structure. At its head will be a bishop, chosen by the Pope from a list of three Society members, named by the Society.

    This is the exact scenario that +Lefebvre backed out of, in negotiations with +JPII.  He didn't want Rome to be involved in picking a new bishop because he didn't trust rome to choose someone traditional.

    The 3 sspx bishops will retire in 15 years or so.  The new bishop for the sspx will be the only one chosen by rome.  What practical problems will arise in 15 years?  Let's see...

    1.  How can the sspx "continue as they are" with only one bishop?  Will one bishop do all the confirmations?  Of course not.  Novus Ordo bishops will be called in to "help".

    2.  How will the sspx ordain priests with only one bishop?  2 bishops are ususal for ordinations (at least), so other novus ordo bishops will be called in to "help".

    3.  When these novus ordo bishops "help", which rite will be used - old or new?  How would the faithful know?

    4.  What kind of training will the sspx have at their seminaries?  V2 i'm sure.  Old and new rites, i'm sure.  Tradition and modernism together, i'm sure.  1962 missal and new latin/english hybrid missal training, i'm sure.

    Etc, etc, etc.  This list could go on and on and on.

    The sspx will be slowly but surely "updated" and improved until, 25 years from now, it will be an empty shell of itself.  That's how communists/freemasons/modernists work.  Slow and steady.  Patiently evil.  Long term demolition planning.  Same blueprint used after V2...

    Offline poche

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #24 on: January 02, 2019, 11:10:42 PM »
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  • Right, so any priest of the FSSP or the ICK who wants to stay "traditional" will just join the new-sspx.  This new-sspx will be the only TLM game in town.  It will be easier for modernist rome to control and it will be "game over" for the TLM in the local dioceses.
    The SSPX is not an indult.

    Offline poche

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #25 on: January 02, 2019, 11:26:14 PM »
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  • The 3 sspx bishops will retire in 15 years or so.  The new bishop for the sspx will be the only one chosen by rome.  What practical problems will arise in 15 years?  Let's see...

    1.  How can the sspx "continue as they are" with only one bishop?  Will one bishop do all the confirmations?  Of course not.  Novus Ordo bishops will be called in to "help".

    It
    looks like the SSPX is at an impasse. As of right now they have not made any agreement with the Vatican although the excommunications promulgated against their bishops have been lifted. They can make an agreement with the Vatican and the Pope will ultimately choose who (most likely from among them) will be ordained to the episcopate and carry on. Or they can decide among themselves who they want to continue on and they could ordain him to the episcopate without a mandate from the Pope, in which case they will all be excommunicated again. Or they could do nothing and the SSPX will die out without any bishop to ordain any of their priests.   


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #26 on: January 02, 2019, 11:30:27 PM »
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  • Quote
    The SSPX is not an indult.
    Right, not currently but we're talking about the future.  After they make a deal with new-rome, they'll have to accept V2 and the new mass and then they'll be an indult, just like all the other TLM/compromisers who are "under (heretical) rome".

    Offline poche

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #27 on: January 02, 2019, 11:32:58 PM »
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  • 1.  How can the sspx "continue as they are" with only one bishop?  Will one bishop do all the confirmations?  Of course not.  Novus Ordo bishops will be called in to "help".

    As of right now, no there is no agreement between the SSPX and the Vatican. Therefore any the idea of any 'novus ordo' bishop 'helping out' is out of the question. 

    Offline poche

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #28 on: January 02, 2019, 11:38:16 PM »
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  • 4.  What kind of training will the sspx have at their seminaries?  V2 i'm sure.  Old and new rites, i'm sure.  Tradition and modernism together, i'm sure.  1962 missal and new latin/english hybrid missal training, i'm sure.

    The training in their seminaries would very likely be the same. When there was serious talk about an agreement part of teh agreement was to recognize the particular charism of the SSPX  in the training of priests. I understand that Cardinal Ranjith wanted to bring them with him to Sri Lanka so that they could train his priests there. However, when no agreement was made that plan went nowhere.

    Offline poche

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    Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
    « Reply #29 on: January 02, 2019, 11:39:21 PM »
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  • Right, not currently but we're talking about the future.  After they make a deal with new-rome, they'll have to accept V2 and the new mass and then they'll be an indult, just like all the other TLM/compromisers who are "under (heretical) rome".
    No one who is part of the SSPX is technically 'under Rome.'

     

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