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Author Topic: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei  (Read 57937 times)

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Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #115 on: January 21, 2019, 11:07:15 AM »
Pax,

We both have opinions but you are fixated in yours. You want to believe BXVI's "trickery" that is the same missal as the Pius V. The 1962 is legal to use because the popes have given indults (which means permission to do something otherwise considered illegal!) for its use.

In 1986 it was acknowledged by the highest authorities in the Church after JPII's Commission of 9 Cardinals (all with Doctorates in Canon Law) that:

1) The old Mass was never forbidden to be said by any priest in good standing. Quo Primum was never abrogated.
2) No one (not even a religious superior, bishop or Cardinal) could forbid a priest from saying the old Mass in public or in private.

So...why all the indults (1988 & 2007) if the 1962 missal is considered by Rome to be the "received and approved" rite of the Latin Rite?

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #116 on: January 21, 2019, 12:46:12 PM »
You answered your own question. Look at the facts.  Which came first, JPIIs commission or the indults?  The commission did.  What does that mean?  It means that the commission decided BEFORE THE INDULT LAWS EXISTED that the True Mass wasn’t outlawed.  

That means that the 62 missal wasn’t outlawed and the indults are legal trickery, trying to get people to “ask” for something that they already have the right to have.  The indults were accepted by everyone but Traditionalists because we know that Quo Primum is a higher law.  And since the commission ruled that Quo Primum is still law, and this was again confirmed in 2007 by +Benedict, then this is fact.  

What we disagree on is which missal is the True Missal.  For some reason (which you’ve yet to explain) you say the 62 missal is illegal, immoral and unusable.  You’ve yet to prove this with any facts.  The legal fact is that if you say that the 62 missal is illegal then you’d have to use Pius Xs missal.  This would be the last valid missal.  Is this your argument?

If so, then you’d have to say that John XXIII isn’t the pope because his 62 law abrogated Pius Xs missal and does not allow it to be used any longer.  

Further, earlier on in this debate, it was said that the 62 missal is wrong because Bugnini was involved.  But John XXIII is the one who suspended Bugnini and took him off the liturgical commission, so that argument doesn’t fly.  

I still don’t understand why you’re against the 62 missal, if you’re not a sedevacantist.


Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #117 on: January 21, 2019, 01:32:53 PM »
This is basically what was said and drew has said it better:

https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/a-step-for-the-regularization-of-the-sspx-dissolution-of-ecclesia-dei/msg638935/#msg638935
https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/a-step-for-the-regularization-of-the-sspx-dissolution-of-ecclesia-dei/msg639133/#msg639133
https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/a-step-for-the-regularization-of-the-sspx-dissolution-of-ecclesia-dei/msg639174/#msg639174
https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/a-step-for-the-regularization-of-the-sspx-dissolution-of-ecclesia-dei/msg639180/#msg639180
https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/a-step-for-the-regularization-of-the-sspx-dissolution-of-ecclesia-dei/msg639181/#msg639181

I don't think saying anything else would make a difference to you. It won't be long before we KNOW more about the 1962 Missal when the SSPX Prelature is announced and the "New 1962 missal" as approved by BXVI before his retirement comes out. When that happens, the 1962 will have to be abrogated because C. Ratzinger's idea was to "merge the two rites into one". As pope, he approved it.

We wait and see. And NO, we are NOT sedevacante.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #118 on: January 21, 2019, 06:35:24 PM »
Any changes to the 62 missal would be a new missal, with a new year.  There’s no such thing as a “new 62 missal”.  That’s an oxymoron.

Any new missal (from Benedict or otherwise) must be legally put into use.  This promulgation for its use is the most important part because this determines the why, the obligation for its use and how we are to treat the older missals.

If +Francis comes out with “updates” to the 62 missal this year (we would call it the 2019 missal), then what really matters is 1) if he makes the updates by ABROGATING the entire 1962 missal and commanding that the new 2019 missal is ONLY to be used.  Or 2) if he just comes out with changes or a new hybrid version between the 62 and the new mass, and does NOT ABROGATE the 62 missal, but simply creates a new missal like Paul VI, with no obligations for anyone to use it.  

If he does the latter, then no one has to pay any concern to it, since there’s no obligation to.  If he tries to do the former, then we’ll have to read the law and see what it says, exactly.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #119 on: January 21, 2019, 07:54:15 PM »

Quote
When that happens, the 1962 will have to be abrogated because C. Ratzinger's idea was to "merge the two rites into one". As pope, he approved it.
1.  If a new hybrid 62-new mass missal is released, that doesn’t mean that the 62 missal is abrogated, unless the law specially says so.  When Paul VI issued the new mass, he didn’t abrogate the 62 missal so abrogation cannot be assumed; it must be clearly spelled out in the law.  

2.  Even if Pope Benedict put the new hybrid missal together, since he did not issue it under his papacy, then he did not “approve” it, formally and legally speaking.  When/If a new hybrid missal is issued, it will be approved by +Francis, because he’s the pope (in theory).  It doesn’t matter when the missal was put together, it matters when the law that issues the missal is put in force.