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Author Topic: A reply to Sean as challenged on #1 of the CCCC.  (Read 2334 times)

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Re: A reply to Sean as challenged on #1 of the CCCC.
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2019, 10:17:04 PM »
Greetings XM-

Firstly, I wish to thank you for being so candid regarding your bad disposition, lest someone should take this meandering attempt at refutation seriously (i.e, It was in the other thread you refer to, that you announced your intention to refute the whole book, despite never having read it).  Consequently, your position (i.e., that the book is 101 mistakes) is not oriented toward truth, but toward the defense of an organization which you have concluded, a priori, must in all things be correct.

This is undeniable (though I fully expect you to deny it nonetheless).

I do admit to being perplexed by your start:

You hold it against me that I do not discuss my own opinion on whether new Mass attendance is sinful, but I am not sure why: The book has nothing to do with my own opinions (though you should be able to deduce them easily enough, as in all cases they are those of Archbishop Lefebvre and the old SSPX).  

My job as author was simple and straightforward: To compare and contrast the official positions and writings of Archbishop Lefebvre and the old SSPX with the current positions of the SSPX, to docuмent and compile a list of changes, contradictions, or compromises to demonstrate the Society has, in large measure, left Archbishop Lefebvre behind, in pursuit of a canonical accord with unconverted Rome.

Interjecting my own positions into such a work would be impertinent and distracting.

Nevertheless, if you wanted to have an answer, I am happy to discuss elsewhere, if you find it interesting (or to save time, you could simply obtain a copy of the Catechetical Refutation, which you can find for free at various websites).

As for the specifics regarding entry #1 on the changes to Christian Warfare regarding active participation in the new Mass having been excised from the examination of conscience in the 2009 edition, the fact is objective:

Active participation in the NOM appeared in the examination of conscience in the 2006 edition, but not in the 2009 edition.  This is proof that, at least until 2006, the SSPX considered such participation sinful.

Contrary to what you say, therefore, the conclusion that the removal of active NOM participation from the 2009 edition implies that the SSPX no longer wishes to suggest such participation is sinful is far from being a non-sequitur (i.e., a conclusion which does not logically follow from a previous statement or argument), as any reasonable person aware of the change would and should logically conclude precisely that.

You then enter into a lengthy discussion in your various points about the degree of sin NOM participation represents (i.e., mortal vs venial).  I'm not sure why, as that is not an issue I enter into.  I only discuss the fact that the SSPX used to consider NOM attendance sinful, and that the excision of active NOM participation from the new examination of conscience implies that they no longer do.

I am also confused as to why you are throwing +Lefebvre's quote from Apologia at me regarding the possibility of satisfying the Sunday obligation at the NOM.  As you say, I am well familiar with it, but have no idea why you think it relevant here (i.e., In a discussion about whether of not the SSPX no longer considers active participation in the NOM sinful or not).  I think perhaps you have not realized that you have slipped off track, and entered into another subject?

So far as I can tell, it seems you are mistakenly reading me as saying in example #1 that attending a NOM is always a mortal sin.  In doing so, you have either misunderstood one of the shortest entries in the book (which does not fill me with hope that you will understand the lengthier entries), or, what is more likely, you have deliberately attempted to argue a different subject, while pretending it is relevant to the entry you are objecting to (i.e., because of your a priori bad disposition mentioned at the beginning of this post), in order to have something to say.

In other words, your entire response is a straw man.

You might have done better not to have responded at all.

Re: A reply to Sean as challenged on #1 of the CCCC.
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2019, 01:01:59 PM »
#1. New Mass Participation Sinful or Not? Although there has been a change in the text the question is why and whether that has resulted in a change in position towards the New Mass. The text is now broader in that it reads as Communicatio in sacris, which is now more prevalent within the Novus Ordo, but this does not exclude the New Mass, particularly the way-out 'biker' and 'rainbow' Mass abuses which can clearly be considered non-Catholic. It also imputes a knowledge of sacrilege and loss of faith in the Real Presence to the penitent. But surely such a knowledge must also exist for active participation at the New Mass as well as communion in the hand; the two go hand-in-hand. It seems the only circuмstance the new text doesn't uniquely capture is one where the penitent actively participates in the New Mass with full knowledge that it's a danger to the faith but simultaneously refuses to go to communion because he knows it leads to a loss of faith. Such a circuмstance would scarcely arise.

However, the purpose of the booklet is not to list every sin but to list the most grievous and most common. The space available is finite without having to reformat and expand the booklet, and the fact that some sin is omitted doesn't mean that it is no longer considered a sin otherwise was Communicatio in sacris previously not sinful because it did make an appearance?

Christian Warfare isn't the Society's only publication and if the accusation that the Society's position on the New Mass has changed is true then her other publications should have been subject to the same treatment. It doesn't take long, however, to find three that articulate the Society's unchanging position:

as it involves danger for our own faith and for that of our dependents, for whom we are responsible before God, we must say that whoever is conscious of this danger, insofar as he is conscious of it, far from satisfying the Church’s precept, rather commits a sin against faith [by attending the N.O.M.].

attendance at such a Mass could become a sinful act for the Catholics warned of the danger.



Consequently, this raises another question, "If there has been a change in position why haven't these articles been expunged?" No doubt someone will expound some bit-by-bit conspiracy theory, but the reality is this: while the text has changed the Society's position towards the New Mass has not.

One more point about Communicatio in sacris, there is another objection that accuses the SSPX of precisely this:

#66: SSPX and the Year of Mercy Jubilee [in 2015]. The Dominicans of Avrille gave an argument by argument rebuttal of the Society's reasons for participation and it is, by one account at least, 'decisive'. Sometimes, rather than diving into the theology, it’s better to take a step back, praying with heretics is nothing new and there must already be in extant examples and actual instances of how far a Catholic can go. Fortunately we have one that occurred just a couple of weeks ago.


In the U.K. soon after the outbreak of World War II Armistice Day was suspended (because of war work and air raid precautions). King George VI agreed with the government and church leaders that for the duration of the war Remembrance Sunday (the second Sunday in November) should take its place. This was formalized in 1946 and Remembrance Sunday became the 'national day of remembrance' of the war dead, continuing to the present day. It is also worth noting that there were several other days during the war when the King requested a National Day of Prayer, not least on Sunday 26th May 1940 for what appeared to be an impending tragedy at Dunkirk.

So, the monarch - the head of state and the Supreme Governor of the Church of England - requests prayers from his subjects for the war dead. Now, it is good to pray for the dead (2 Maccabees), but Catholics are forbidden to pray with Anglicans (Communicatio in sacris), what is a Catholic to do? Well, the Bishops Conference of England & Wales allows for a Requiem Mass to be celebrated on Remembrance Sunday (the origins of a Requiem Mass for the Fallen in Catholic churches in the U.K. date back to Pope Benedict XV), and by assisting at that Mass is how a Catholic subject fulfils their monarch's request.

But the Dominicans would have the Society refuse any participation in the pope's request. They claim any participation to be Communicatio in sacris, and if they truly believe that how much more so if the Society were to participate in an Anglican monarch's request? Yet the SSPX British District's clerics have always celebrated Requiem Masses on Remembrance Sunday.

The similarities are striking: the monarch has an authority over his subjects just like the pope over the baptized. The monarch asks something good of his subjects just like the pope asks of members of the Catholic Church. The monarch has a false notion of prayer just like the Pope and Divine Mercy. The Anglican Communion, of which monarch is head, espouse heresies (e.g. the low church denies purgatory) just like the Conciliar Church. The Bishops Conference allow Catholics to participate within the limits of how Catholics pray for the dead just like Bishop Fellay allowed the Society to participate within the limits of how the Catholic Church traditionally understood Divine Mercy.

The only real 'limping' to this is that Year of Mercy Jubilee was also the 50th anniversary of the closing of the Second Vatican Council. But this isn't really that big an issue since, if this is the only argument for non-participation then the Dominicans would have no problem adding a post scriptum to their article, "p.s. If the Year of Mercy was to occurred a year later all the above would be null and void."


Re: A reply to Sean as challenged on #1 of the CCCC.
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2019, 08:33:48 AM »
One of the main problems I found with the book is that the author tries to pit one quote against another rather than first trying to understand and reconcile them. For example, #59 & #60 attempt to pit Bp. Tissier de Mallerais against Frs. Pfluger and Schmidberger as to whether the Society is in a normal or an abnormal situation. That the Society was in an abnormal situation is easily demonstrable: its reliance on the operation of the supplementary principle for valid sacraments - simple as that. In addition, since when was it permissible for a Pius Union to own churches, schools, seminaries and send its members into diocese without any permission from the local ordinary or the Church hierarchy?
 
However, both a normal and an abnormal situation can exist in different respects. The Church is One and by this is meant Unity - Unity of Faith and Unity of Communion. Unity of Communion includes Unity of Rule (government) and this is where the Society's situation is abnormal. Indeed, if you read the quotes, Fr. Pfluger specifically says "abnormal canonical status" and Fr. Schmidberger's quote is in reference to a "canonical solution".
 
Conversely, in Unity of Faith it is the Conciliar Church that is abnormal, not the Society, and this is what Bp. Tissier de Mallerais was referring to, he said "We are the visible Church who practice visibly the true Faith. We have the Unity of Faith. ... We are not in an abnormal situation. The abnormal situation is in Rome! We possess the Faith, the true Sacraments..." 
 
But because the author has not understood this he proceeds to misquote Bp. Tissier de Mallerais in #61 where he asks "Are the Faith and Sacraments sufficient?" and uses the bishop's quote against one from Fr. Schmidburger, "We must never argue ... we don't need anything." First, he misrepresents the bishop since the bishop continued, "... and the disposition to submit to the pope." Second, if Faith and Sacraments are sufficient, then what of the Orthodox (namely, those groups in schism)? Third, the knock-on effect of this is that it undermines his #86 objection.

Re: A reply to Sean as challenged on #1 of the CCCC.
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2019, 12:40:57 PM »
However, both a normal and an abnormal situation can exist in different respects. The Church is One and by this is meant Unity - Unity of Faith and Unity of Communion. Unity of Communion includes Unity of Rule (government) and this is where the Society's situation is abnormal. Indeed, if you read the quotes, Fr. Pfluger specifically says "abnormal canonical status" and Fr. Schmidberger's quote is in reference to a "canonical solution".
 

The fact that Fr. Pfluger and Schidberger admit that the SSPX is in an "abnormal canonical status" shows that they accept the legitimacy of the suppression of the SSPX back in the 1970's. The reality is that the SSPX has a normal canonical status, but the Pope and the rest of the world's bishop have unjustly and illegally failed to recognize what is already existing. What they (Father Pfluger and Schidberger ) should say is "the Conciliar Church hierarchy has created a false reality giving the impression to the public that we (the SSPX) are in an abnormal situation but in reality and in truth we  have full canonical approval, whereas they are the ones that have an abnormal canonical status as some of these bishop are in reality schismatics and/or heretics and have a canonical status of former members of the Catholic Church."

Re: A reply to Sean as challenged on #1 of the CCCC.
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2019, 09:40:02 AM »
The fact that Fr. Pfluger and Schidberger admit that the SSPX is in an "abnormal canonical status" shows that they accept the legitimacy of the suppression of the SSPX back in the 1970's. The reality is that the SSPX has a normal canonical status, but the Pope and the rest of the world's bishop have unjustly and illegally failed to recognize what is already existing. What they (Father Pfluger and Schidberger ) should say is "the Conciliar Church hierarchy has created a false reality giving the impression to the public that we (the SSPX) are in an abnormal situation but in reality and in truth we  have full canonical approval, whereas they are the ones that have an abnormal canonical status as some of these bishop are in reality schismatics and/or heretics and have a canonical status of former members of the Catholic Church."
No it doesn’t. It’s abnormal solely for the reasons I adduced in my first paragraph; it would may no difference either way (whether they accepted the suppression or not).