Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: sspxbvm on November 24, 2012, 10:07:29 PM
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Don't you feel better when you stand up and fight than if you crawl down in a little hole and go to sleep? People, your families are out there, your children are out there; you've got to do something to help.
Wake up! What a colossal disappointment in Catholic tradition! The Devil grips St. Mary's in a terrible hold. A true Disneyworld! It is so comfortable with their way of living they can't see past the city limits. You are being cloak and daggered by the neo-sspx and you seem to revel in the attention!
Will this message work? Of course not! The world & St. Mary's are far too disconnected with Catholic Truth to see there is any problem at all. Earlier this week we received a letter from "The Resistance" asking people in St. Mary's to wake up! We believe that letter will have little to no fruit because it is running up against a row of blissfully ignorant blockheads who simply don't care.
A priest warned them not too long ago from the pulpit that they could lose everything they have. They deserve the integration of rome (the seat of the anti Christ) with their little world.
God save Saint Mary's! May the day of our Lady come soon!
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Don't you feel better when you stand up and fight than if you crawl down in a little hole and go to sleep? People, your families are out there, your children are out there; you've got to do something to help.
Wake up! What a colossal disappointment in Catholic tradition! The Devil grips St. Mary's in a terrible hold. A true Disneyworld! It is so comfortable with their way of living they can't see past the city limits. You are being cloak and daggered by the neo-sspx and you seem to revel in the attention!
Will this message work? Of course not! The world & St. Mary's are far too disconnected with Catholic Truth to see there is any problem at all. Earlier this week we received a letter from "The Resistance" asking people in St. Mary's to wake up! We believe that letter will have little to no fruit because it is running up against a row of blissfully ignorant blockheads who simply don't care.
A priest warned them not too long ago from the pulpit that they could lose everything they have. They deserve the integration of rome (the seat of the anti Christ) with their little world.
God save Saint Mary's! May the day of our Lady come soon!
Let me guess: The priest was Fr. Pfeiffer and the pulpit was not the one in
Assumption Chapel, but in a small, temporary location, somewhere in town.
The rank and file in the pews are under the delusion that if it doesn't come from
the pulpit right there in their chapel, they don't have to believe it. They don't
have to believe "Internet rumors." See how that works? I see it happening in
independent chapels and in sede chapels. People believe what they hear the
priest say from the pulpit, and if he says not to believe something they hear
elsewhere, they do what he says. This happens all the time. It's how V.II was
so successful. It's the unclean spirit of Vatican II all over again.
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Don't you feel better when you stand up and fight than if you crawl down in a little hole and go to sleep? People, your families are out there, your children are out there; you've got to do something to help.
Wake up! What a colossal disappointment in Catholic tradition! The Devil grips St. Mary's in a terrible hold. A true Disneyworld! It is so comfortable with their way of living they can't see past the city limits. You are being cloak and daggered by the neo-sspx and you seem to revel in the attention!
Will this message work? Of course not! The world & St. Mary's are far too disconnected with Catholic Truth to see there is any problem at all. Earlier this week we received a letter from "The Resistance" asking people in St. Mary's to wake up! We believe that letter will have little to no fruit because it is running up against a row of blissfully ignorant blockheads who simply don't care.
A priest warned them not too long ago from the pulpit that they could lose everything they have. They deserve the integration of rome (the seat of the anti Christ) with their little world.
God save Saint Mary's! May the day of our Lady come soon!
Let me guess: The priest was Fr. Pfeiffer and the pulpit was not the one in
Assumption Chapel, but in a small, temporary location, somewhere in town.
The rank and file in the pews are under the delusion that if it doesn't come from
the pulpit right there in their chapel, they don't have to believe it. They don't
have to believe "Internet rumors." See how that works? I see it happening in
independent chapels and in sede chapels. People believe what they hear the
priest say from the pulpit, and if he says not to believe something they hear
elsewhere, they do what he says. This happens all the time. It's how V.II was
so successful. It's the unclean spirit of Vatican II all over again.
Yes. Father Pfeiffer but also Father K. Novak.
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Okay, you got me. Can you tell me anything about Fr. Novak? I guess
I'm out of the loop. I've never met Fr. Pfeiffer, but from his sermons I
think I would have a lot to say to him if I ever get the good fortune to
make his acquaintance. I've known several others who have met him
and Fr. Chazal, and they look at me funny when I react to their
description of their meetings. One friend told me about them coming to
his front door and he didn't know who they were. He doesn't use a
computer. Well, I guess I didn't time my visit very well, did I?
I wish I could have been there...
If I ever run into Fr. Novak quite by chance, I'd like to know something
about him, and what he looks like, so I don't miss the opportunity. Can
you imagine having met Padre Pio and not knowing who he was? What
a lost opportunity! I met Fr. Hector Bolduc under such circuмstances,
but I was fortunate to recognize immediately that I was in the presence
of someone I would never forget as long as I live.
P.S. If it wasn't for Fr. Bolduc, St. Mary's Wouldn't Exist.
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SSPXBVM, why is St. Mary's any different than any other town served by the SSPX where the folks in the pews are comfy, blind, and deaf to the startling and sad events in the Society and Catholic Tradition.
Insulting the people who live there will not convince them of the truth, only alienate them further, stiffening their backs and wills. We need to always be ready with a truthful words regarding the current state supported by links to information that has supporting good information, but until their eyes and ears are opened through prayer, ours and theirs, they will remain blind and deaf.
We all can say we are truly frustrated by blind obedience which compromises truth, soviet style propaganda agendas, and threats of withhold of sacraments, insults to a people will not bring about good fruit anywhere.
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I know Fr. Novak, he was my priest at one time. I would be very weary of lumping him into the "resistance." (I mean no offence. Perhaps you were not doing that or intending to do that) Fr. Novak is loyalty personified. I heard from his own lips, "Live and die a Society priest, that's me." He is a wonderful priest, very outspoken, always has been as long as I have known him. But he loves the Society. Keep in mind too, that sometimes his sermons can be rather obscure. What a person in the pew may think he is talking about, often times is far from what he was intending/thinking.
There is a recent picture of him on the SSPX.org web site. It was taken at the Starkenburg Pilgrimange.
http://www.sspx.org/chapel_news/starkenburg_pilgrimage_2012/DSC05727.JPG
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That should have been "leery" not "weary" LOL! I'm "weary" this morning apparently! I guess we only have a short amount of time to edit our posts. I'll try to read over my more carefully next time.
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Let me relate something which fits into this discussion as well. Several years ago, say five to seven, the parish held a "Legion of Mary" event. I am sure it had a formal name, but the purpose was to increase the membership in the local chapter of the LoM. Fr. Libietis, our pastor and "leader" of the Legion of Mary conducted the event. He would do these events in various parishes throughout the world, but most of his travels were limited to the USA and the Pacific region. Anyhow, he was reviewing some of the locations were LoM were existing or recently established. As an aid, people would call out cities, like Phoenix, LA, etc. Somebody mentioned St. Mary's, to which he responded, no they don't have a chapter there and they did not seem to be interested in having one. He seemed disappointed in that fact, but that's the way it was. He was very committed to the BVM, so I suspect he saw what this thread is all about. He too would say that we have no idea what is coming down the road, and how difficult things will become.
Since Fr. Libietis has been given the BITA (boot in the anterior) by the SSPX, who is doing the LoM?
I also found the 2006 Marian Retreat given by Fr. Libietis on YouTube. It was posted by the same person who recently posted the interviews with the Belgian priest (harrassed by SSPX henchmen, etc.) on our site here. That person has many good sermons, many of which are posted on this site as well. In any case, the Fr. Libietis retreat is audio and video. There are three two hours videos. The first is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDohB9hL0fs&feature=plcp The other two appear to show up when you do a search, if not automatically.
Fr. Libietis was our pastor for more than ten years. This video is really nothing more than three Sunday sermons rolled together into a two hour presentation. Every Sunday was a mini-retreat. I don't know where he is now, but hopefully he is preaching every Sunday. As I have often thought, his BITA and the resulting loss of priestly guidance weighs heavily on the souls of selected people. I would not want to be present when Our Lord asks for an explaination as to why a priest who championed His Mother was given the BITA.
Thank you for allowing me to ramble on and on.
Jake
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Thank you JacobRCharpentier.
This YouTube of Fr. Libietis' mini-retreat is excellent -really excellent!
Perhaps you can put it in on it's own post to make it as visible as possible...
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I know Fr. Novak, he was my priest at one time. I would be very weary of lumping him into the "resistance." (I mean no offence. Perhaps you were not doing that or intending to do that) Fr. Novak is loyalty personified. I heard from his own lips, "Live and die a Society priest, that's me." He is a wonderful priest, very outspoken, always has been as long as I have known him. But he loves the Society. Keep in mind too, that sometimes his sermons can be rather obscure. What a person in the pew may think he is talking about, often times is far from what he was intending/thinking.
There is a recent picture of him on the SSPX.org web site. It was taken at the Starkenburg Pilgrimange.
http://www.sspx.org/chapel_news/starkenburg_pilgrimage_2012/DSC05727.JPG
I don't know Fr Novack's position on all the politics either but I wanted to note that this post is based in the erroneous thought that the Resistance priests do not also love the SSPX. I think people would be better off to realize their actions stem from love of the SSPX, that of ABL, and speak of their cases accordingly.
There have been priests who have left because they no longer held SSPX positions, but I do not believe it to be the case right now.
As far as St Mary's, Fr Beck says the sermon at all Masses on the first Sunday of the month, wherein he keeps everyone "informed" so that they have no need to search out "Internet rumors". It has been disappointing to hear this same phrase parroted by all I've spoken with so far. They are much too comfortable. This is human nature, I don't believe it is bad will necessarily, but Satan will use the weakness and neglect to his advantage as he always does. It will catch up with them someday if not now.
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SSPXBVM, why is St. Mary's any different than any other town served by the SSPX where the folks in the pews are comfy, blind, and deaf to the startling and sad events in the Society and Catholic Tradition.
Insulting the people who live there will not convince them of the truth, only alienate them further, stiffening their backs and wills. We need to always be ready with a truthful words regarding the current state supported by links to information that has supporting good information, but until their eyes and ears are opened through prayer, ours and theirs, they will remain blind and deaf.
We all can say we are truly frustrated by blind obedience which compromises truth, soviet style propaganda agendas, and threats of withhold of sacraments, insults to a people will not bring about good fruit anywhere.
You're right. Not even Christ's harsh words to the Scribes and Pharisee's changed many or any of them. But that didn't stop Him and it wont stop us either. Those people don't need to be pampered. They need the hard, harsh words.
BTW. Yes. Prayer works. No. Links don't usually work. This darkness is only overcome by a special grace which God bestows on particular souls for His reasons.
Finally, an internet forum won't change any hardheads. The original post was mostly letting steam off and planting the seed if God cares to make use of it.
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I know Fr. Novak, he was my priest at one time. I would be very weary of lumping him into the "resistance." (I mean no offence. Perhaps you were not doing that or intending to do that) Fr. Novak is loyalty personified. I heard from his own lips, "Live and die a Society priest, that's me." He is a wonderful priest, very outspoken, always has been as long as I have known him. But he loves the Society. Keep in mind too, that sometimes his sermons can be rather obscure. What a person in the pew may think he is talking about, often times is far from what he was intending/thinking.
There is a recent picture of him on the SSPX.org web site. It was taken at the Starkenburg Pilgrimange.
http://www.sspx.org/chapel_news/starkenburg_pilgrimage_2012/DSC05727.JPG
I don't know Fr Novack's position on all the politics either but I wanted to note that this post is based in the erroneous thought that the Resistance priests do not also love the SSPX. I think people would be better off to realize their actions stem from love of the SSPX, that of ABL, and speak of their cases accordingly.
There have been priests who have left because they no longer held SSPX positions, but I do not believe it to be the case right now.
As far as St Mary's, Fr Beck says the sermon at all Masses on the first Sunday of the month, wherein he keeps everyone "informed" so that they have no need to search out "Internet rumors". It has been disappointing to hear this same phrase parroted by all I've spoken with so far. They are much too comfortable. This is human nature, I don't believe it is bad will necessarily, but Satan will use the weakness and neglect to his advantage as he always does. It will catch up with them someday if not now.
Yes. Father Beck is taking all the sermons every first Sunday (5 Masses). His first one (that we remember) was on our Lady. It was a very good sermon. Very good. One person called it a "tear jerker." But something was missing. He didn't speak on how our Lady helps us today in our dark world. Her apparitions warning her children and how God wants to establish devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. He covered everything except for that.
He also had a sermon on how we are in a very great battle and how the worst enemy on the battlefield comes from "friendly fire" (can we guess what that refers to???). We are certain he will come back to the "friendly fire" routine if he feels he ever has to bring up the SSPX resistance. Something like "Remember when I spoke about 'friendly fire'...well, this is an example of it."
Another, more recent, sermon was about the hurricane in New York. He said a very alarming thing: (I paraphrase) "The weather is one of the few things man cannot control." Has the rector of Saint Mary's never heard of HARP or the government spraying chemicals in the air to cool the earth and poison us? How can one reach a place of importance in leading thousands of faithful and not know this is a reality? He did speak of our Lady's apparitions in a sentence or two but failed to mention the miraculous image of our Lady still standing in the midst of all the devastation (Wall Street Journal front cover).
Anyway, might have the sermons out of order but they each have taken place since he has been here. We are not always in town so there is probably even more. Since he is a priest we will give him the benefit of the doubt because there are (to quote from the "Agenda" docuмentary) only two options. Either he is evil or ignorant. We choose the ignorance. The cloak and dagger being
perpetrated upon the Saint Mary's chapel is being arranged from a higher source of authority.
Now they are playing the organ at every Mass. Poor 'ol Father Novak stands there singing his heart out as the organ blares out the tune. And Father Novak is apparently the only one singing. One can barely hear his voice. It reminds one of the titanic sinking and the orchrestra playing it's music. In the midst of a chaotic mess in the world and the Church one voice tries to be heard.
Father Novak has been a great priest. He still is a great priest. "The Legend" is what Father Hewko calls him. He asked us recently. "How's the Legend?" Father Novak will stay but this great priest will not stay if he is to deny the Creed. No. He wouldn't do that. We owe a lot to Father Novak. He is trying so hard even in Saint Marys as the SSPX sinks--- to elevate souls. He is like a Captain. This Captain won't jump ship. God be with him in his efforts!
We will be moving from this place in the next several months. Father Novak will be missed. However, we have no attachment except to Catholic Truth-pure and
unadulterated. This is fast turning us away from the chapel even as we live in Saint Marys.
The sun has set on the SSPX. It will soon be too dark to stay.
"One day by the Rosary and Scapular, I will save the world." ---Words of our Lady
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How did this thread end up under the SSPX-Rome Agreement section? It was originally put under General Discussion.
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For all of you who think you need to lecture us here in St. Mary's on courage because we haven't had meltdowns due to the recent events within the SSPX, I would like to say that some of us have lived here a very long time, and most of us gave up everything that was of less importance to us than God, to be close to the chapel, school and fine priests that we have always been blessed with. But that included giving up things as important as family, friends and well-paying jobs. Most of us also have lots of kids that need to be educated and don't believe that public schools or novus ordo schools would do a decent job of it. So, before you go on with the accusations of not caring about our souls or our childrens' or just being bone lazy about the practice of our Faith, or of not having any convictions because we have it so comfortable here, I would like to tell you that you do not know what you are talking about.
How many of you experts in Catholic tradition have been through 30 years of living in a small hamlet filled with people who run the gamut from liberal Catholic to visionary fanatics and just plain stupid and hard-headed people that have to be dealt with every day in close proximity? My family came here many years ago, while Archbishop Lefebvre was still going strong. We have been through all of the SSPX splits and we have seen a lot of people come and go. Some folks move here for the wrong reasons and expect some kind of utopia. Well, it isn't and anyone with half a Catholic brain would know that there isn't any utopia on earth. But if we were all so lazy and compromising, we wouldn't have come here in the first place because to live in St. Mary's is to be in the thick of the fight and the heat of battle all the time. But we have a safe place to practice our Faith and raise our children. Our children don't get kidnapped, they can have friends that are good kids who are raised similarly, and they have numbers of young traditional Catholics to choose from when they are thinking of marriage. The only convenience stores in town agreed not to carry Playboy or Penthouse after some of our men paid them a cordial visit a long, long time ago. Now for the most important advantages; we can visit the Blessed Sacrament any time of the day or night, we have five days of the week to go to confession, and, of course, we have daily Mass several times of the day and one as late as 11:00. Most of us have relatives who are traditional and live in large cities still, mostly because they couldn't bring themselves to leave the big paying jobs or the convenience of hospitals and shops nearby. I even know a traditional family that didn't want to move here because they had just gotten new kitchen cabinets. But they don't have our advantages. Usually they can't attend daily Mass, they have a real problem getting into confession, their kids don't have good trad friends that they can visit nearby but usually have worldly kids to play with who attend the same public or NO schools as they do. To be sure, there are worldy people here and worldly kids among the good but it is possible for us to choose good friends and good friends for our children. We stay here for God. To be as close to Him as we possibly can. But never think life here is easy. It is not. But spiritually speaking, the rewards are too great to enumerate.
Even though there are those here who do not agree with pursuing a deal with Rome, I believe this is not the time to run around like a chicken without a head. No matter where we live, we who love tradition, need to keep cool heads and pray hard, harder than we have been. I love the Bishop and priests who have been forced out (I have known some well for a very long time)and I am completely at a loss to understand what Bishop Fellay is doing, but I know that the SSPX and St. Mary's are in Our Lady's hands and I have confidence that God's will will be done. So far, our Mass is the same as it has been for the entire life of the Society, we have not seen the unusual abuses that are reported in some places. Perhaps because here we have several priests to keep things more balanced. Outwardly, nothing has changed and until it does, we watch and wait. To separate a soul from its source of nourishment; the daily Mass and the sacraments, is a triumph of Satan. There are too many hotheads who are willing to shoot their mouths off and give no thought to what will happen to their souls and their children's after they separate themselves from these graces. There has been no deal and there may never be a deal. We are not going to lightly jeopardize our souls and the vocations of our children for the satisfaction of giving in to the temptation to be hotheaded in this very serious situation.
St. Thomas More knew the wisdom of keeping ones opinion on dangerous subjects to oneself. It may be that we will have to lose everything, but it should be avoided if it can be...while we wait for better times.
And one last thought, Our Lady appeared here a long time ago to a little Indian girl and promised that this place would never be destroyed by wind, which is no small thing in Tornado Alley, USA. And to date, the has not been a tornado within the city limits or even really close to it. Go ahead and check it out. There have even been tornadoes that split and went around St. Mary's, but never through it. In these times of crazy superstorms and manipulated weather, this promise takes on huge significance. But I believe that the significance is even greater. I believe that She will protect us from the spiritual storms that are coming as well. She knows how devoted we are to Her and to Her rosary and She won't abandon us.
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Sapon,
You don't have to give up or leave St. Mary's. What you should be doing is acknowledging that there is a problem within the Society and then support those priests and bishop who are brave enough to stand up and say something. Those priests have visited you and I'm sure will do so again. Did you support them in their efforts while they were there?
If Our Lady decides that her next protection for you will be to send you a non-SSPX priest to serve the St. Mary's area free from compromise, will you be able to see Her protection from that storm as plainly as from a weather event?
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Let me relate something which fits into this discussion as well. Several years ago, say five to seven, the parish held a "Legion of Mary" event. I am sure it had a formal name, but the purpose was to increase the membership in the local chapter of the LoM. Fr. Libietis, our pastor and "leader" of the Legion of Mary conducted the event. He would do these events in various parishes throughout the world, but most of his travels were limited to the USA and the Pacific region. Anyhow, he was reviewing some of the locations were LoM were existing or recently established. As an aid, people would call out cities, like Phoenix, LA, etc. Somebody mentioned St. Mary's, to which he responded, no they don't have a chapter there and they did not seem to be interested in having one. He seemed disappointed in that fact, but that's the way it was. He was very committed to the BVM, so I suspect he saw what this thread is all about. He too would say that we have no idea what is coming down the road, and how difficult things will become.
Since Fr. Libietis has been given the BITA (boot in the anterior) by the SSPX, who is doing the LoM?
I also found the 2006 Marian Retreat given by Fr. Libietis on YouTube. It was posted by the same person who recently posted the interviews with the Belgian priest (harrassed by SSPX henchmen, etc.) on our site here. That person has many good sermons, many of which are posted on this site as well. In any case, the Fr. Libietis retreat is audio and video. There are three two hours videos. The first is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDohB9hL0fs&feature=plcp The other two appear to show up when you do a search, if not automatically.
Fr. Libietis was our pastor for more than ten years. This video is really nothing more than three Sunday sermons rolled together into a two hour presentation. Every Sunday was a mini-retreat. I don't know where he is now, but hopefully he is preaching every Sunday. As I have often thought, his BITA and the resulting loss of priestly guidance weighs heavily on the souls of selected people. I would not want to be present when Our Lord asks for an explaination as to why a priest who championed His Mother was given the BITA.
Thank you for allowing me to ramble on and on.
Jake
I've always wanted to meet Father Libietis, since he was the head of the Legion of Mary for the SSPX. I suspected he was under spritual attack being in this important position.
The Legion of Mary is a powerful apostolate.
It's members are consecrated to the Blessed Virgin Mary, making it one of the most important lay organizations in Catholic tradition.
From my observations, the French SSPX priests didn't undertand the Legion of Mary. It is an "Anglo-thing" to them. Father Rostand actually thought it's function was for marketing purposes. Around two years ago he tried to get the Legion members to collect Novus Ordo Diocese information. This is completely contrary to the function and mission of the Legion of Mary.
I hope Father Libeitis has joined the SSPX Resistance.
If the SSPX-Resistance formed a Legion of Mary apostolate, the Virgin would make things happen... I can assure you of that.
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I don't know Fr Novack's position on all the politics either but I wanted to note that this post is based in the erroneous thought that the Resistance priests do not also love the SSPX. I think people would be better off to realize their actions stem from love of the SSPX, that of ABL, and speak of their cases accordingly.
I'm sure the "resistance" priests do love the SSPX in their own way. I do not agree with their position, however. I did actually meet Fr. Pfeiffer once though back in 2006 at Auriesville. He was very nice and had a great sense of humor. His brother was very nice too.
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I don't know Fr Novack's position on all the politics either but I wanted to note that this post is based in the erroneous thought that the Resistance priests do not also love the SSPX. I think people would be better off to realize their actions stem from love of the SSPX, that of ABL, and speak of their cases accordingly.
I'm sure the "resistance" priests do love the SSPX in their own way. I do not agree with their position, however. I did actually meet Fr. Pfeiffer once though back in 2006 at Auriesville. He was very nice and had a great sense of humor. His brother was very nice too.
So you're an accordista? You believe Bishop Fellay is setting the course right for the SSPX? I have grown to be extremely wary of accordistas, particularly those who attack +Williamson and Frs. Pfeiffer, Chazal and Hewko.
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I am neither for a deal or against one. I try not to engage in politics of any kind. I'm simply trying to be the best Roman Catholic I can be in my state in life. That is all.
I'm not sure if you were implying this but I most certainly have not "attacked" Bishop Williamson, or Frs. Pfieffer, Chazal, or Hewko. I would not do that. They are priests and because of that they have my utmost respect regardless of whether I may or may not agree with their positions.
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Well, so many people on the pro-Fellay side have attacked them, so it's natural for the anti-deal side to be wary. Sorry about that. But we don't believe this to be a matter of politics but of preserving the Faith. The argument is summarized thus: since when has Rome ever kept its promises to allow the groups under it to remain free from Vatican II? As it is right now, it is ѕυιcιdє to broker a deal with Rome.
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Cronier,
If you consider deal or no deal to be a matter of politics and wish not to engage in such, statements such as "I do not agree with their position" should be avoided.
:wink:
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Hence the use of the word "try" ... "I TRY not to engage in politics." I don't always succeed. :wink:
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I am neither for a deal or against one. I try not to engage in politics of any kind. I'm simply trying to be the best Roman Catholic I can be in my state in life. That is all.
Since you're "neither for a deal or against one" and you're "trying to be the best Roman Catholic", are you not contradicting yourself?
Wouldn't a (traditional) Roman Catholic want to hold firm to the true Faith and oppose anything that would compromise the Faith (ex."the deal")?
It's either you agree with Bp. Fellay in joining Rome or you fight with all your soul and might in preserving the Traditional Catholic Faith. It has to be wrong or it's right.
I surely don't understand you position on this by being "on the fence".
To be honest, I don't even understand why some of the "faithful" are still attending the neo-SSPX chapels knowing very well the motives, intentions, and spirit that Bp. Fellay's Church is taking them on.
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To be honest, I don't even understand why some of the "faithful" are still attending the neo-SSPX chapels knowing very well the motives, intentions, and spirit that Bp. Fellay's Church is taking them on.
Well, I've heard quite a few reasons/excuses as to why some "faithfuls" are still attending these neo-SSPX chapels....
*We like the "Unity" among the parishioners
*There's no other choice...
*No independent church within driving distance
*We want to "help" our fellow parishioners to fully understand what's going on and then leave as a group!!!!!!
*It's not "that" bad yet.......
My interpretation to all this.....convenience, convenience....and convenience.
In these dark times we're living in....the true-Catholics will be separated from the liberal-Catholics.
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MaterDominici, I only heard yesterday that any priests other than ours had been here. I support that bishop and those priests with my prayers. However, as long as we have such wonderful priests as Father de la Tour, Father Desautard and many of the rest whom I know ( I do not know our new rector), there is no need to go looking elsewhere for what we have in our own chapel.
I am against any deal until Rome returns to traditional Catholic doctrine but good Catholic doctrine is all we are hearing from our pulpit. And I do believe, in answer to your question, that I will recognize that particular storm when it comes. I am an old campaigner. The first thing that breakaway priests always do is set up shop nearby. It has happened again and again. This is the only time I have been sympathetic to their cause. But by their fruits you shall know them and I will wait to see what those fruits are. I am not very edified by many of the things that some of those layfolk who support Bishop Williamson are saying. Their spirit seems often seems malcontented and without peace.
Father Chazal himself said that Bishop Tissier, who could not be accused of having a spirit of compromise in the least or not knowing what is going on, did not want him to do what he did. He wanted him to obey and wait. Bishop de Galarreta and Bishop Tissier are still within the Society waiting and praying. That is what I am doing. Why do the priests who have been asked to leave insist they still belong to the Society? It is because of their great love for the Society and because they know that it is the last bastion and the vanguard of resistance to Modernism. I don't believe we should do anything to weaken the Society further at this time.
If those priests who long for the onions of Egypt gain the upper hand and a deal is made well, that will be a different story altogether. Until then, there is something to be said for the old expression "don't rock the boat". Why not rock the boat? What often happens to those who rock the boat is that they fall out of the boat and drown. Be very careful, my dear fellow traditional Catholics. Make your way very carefully. This is the only crisis of the SSPX that has been challenging. All of the others by comparison were child's play.
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I am neither for a deal or against one
If we had more like this. :roll-laugh1:
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However, as long as we have such wonderful priests as Father de la Tour, Father Desautard and many of the rest whom I know ( I do not know our new rector), there is no need to go looking elsewhere for what we have in our own chapel.
I love Fr. Desautard! He is wonderful.
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I am neither for a deal or against one. I try not to engage in politics of any kind. I'm simply trying to be the best Roman Catholic I can be in my state in life. That is all.
I'm not sure if you were implying this but I most certainly have not "attacked" Bishop Williamson, or Frs. Pfieffer, Chazal, or Hewko. I would not do that. They are priests and because of that they have my utmost respect regardless of whether I may or may not agree with their positions.
Atleast you are honest though I disagree with your sitting on the fence answer. One is either for the agreement or against it. Have you heard of Rorate Caeli?
You basically saying 'I'm happy out". You are accordist.
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Insulting the people who live there will not convince them of the truth, only alienate them further, stiffening their backs and wills. We need to always be ready with a truthful words regarding the current state supported by links to information that has supporting good information, but until their eyes and ears are opened through prayer, ours and theirs, they will remain blind and deaf
Indeed. The best thing we can do for them is smile at them and pray for them. There is nothing more we can do for them for now. God must do the rest for them.
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God must do for all of us...... :pray:
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One problem with Catholic lay communities is they become dependent on the centralised authority and its spin-offs in many areas of community life. When change comes, they tend to change en masse. Another reason for Bp. W's 'looser' intiative.
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The statement, "I am neither for an agreement nor against one", seems to be the favored response of the compliant SSPX clergy. I have heard these words from no less than three priests and two SSPX school teachers. Interesting!
We cannot be indecisive in regard to the Holy Faith lest we place ourselves in a position to be vomited out of His Mouth.
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The statement, "I am neither for an agreement nor against one", seems to be the favored response of the compliant SSPX clergy. I have heard these words from no less than three priests and two SSPX school teachers. Interesting!
We cannot be indecisive in regard to the Holy Faith lest we place ourselves in a position to be vomited out of His Mouth.
The "cowards" in Dante's Divine Comedy are introduced in Canto III thusly:
As the two poets enter the vestibule that leads to Hell itself, Dante sees the inscription above the gate, and he hears the screams of anguish from the damned souls. Rejected by God and not accepted by the powers of Hell, the first group of souls are "nowhere," because of their cowardly refusal to make a choice in life. Their punishment is to follow a banner at a furious pace forever, and to be tormented by flies and hornets....
Later:
And he to me: "This wretched state of being
is the fate of those sad souls who lived a life
but lived it with no blame and with no praise.
Heaven, to keep its beauty, cast them out,
but even Hell itself would not receive them,
for fear the damned might glory over them."
Canto III, lines 34-42
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Magdalena, thank you for the excerpt from Dante's Divine Comedy. Perfect!
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Magdalena, thank you for the excerpt from Dante's Divine Comedy. Perfect!
Always my pleasure to quote my favourite poet!
:reading:
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Well, so many people on the pro-Fellay side have attacked them, so it's natural for the anti-deal side to be wary. Sorry about that. But we don't believe this to be a matter of politics but of preserving the Faith. The argument is summarized thus: since when has Rome ever kept its promises to allow the groups under it to remain free from Vatican II? As it is right now, it is ѕυιcιdє to broker a deal with Rome.
None of us should be attacking any of the priests. I have seen the most amazingly disrespectful cartoons made with Bishop Fellay and Father Rostand as the object of derision that I am astonished. For me, I am against an agreement with Modernist Rome. I am of the opinion that it must be the triumph of the Immaculata that will restore Rome to the true Faith. However, we need to meditate on the fact that Bishop Tissier advised Father Chazal, by his own admission, not to do what he has done, and since Bishop Tissier is a most holy man who loves the Church and loves the Society with all of his heart, that is good enough for me. I love and respect the priests who have left but I also know that they are only human and can make as many mistakes as the priests who have stayed and as we all do. I am not convinced that this is the end of the Society, not by a long chalk. Bishop Fellay may realize his mistakes and steer the Society back to a safer course and there are signs of this already. But even if not, I believe that the other two bishops who have managed to stay within the SSPX won't allow her to be turned over to Modernist Rome. By God's grace, distributed through the hands of the Immaculata, we will survive this intact as long as we don't panic and lose our heads and our confidence in Divine Providence.
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MaterDominici, I only heard yesterday that any priests other than ours had been here. I support that bishop and those priests with my prayers. However, as long as we have such wonderful priests as Father de la Tour, Father Desautard and many of the rest whom I know ( I do not know our new rector), there is no need to go looking elsewhere for what we have in our own chapel.
I am against any deal until Rome returns to traditional Catholic doctrine but good Catholic doctrine is all we are hearing from our pulpit. And I do believe, in answer to your question, that I will recognize that particular storm when it comes.
It is not what they are saying in their sermons. Its what their not saying.
BTW this site seems to be messing up as I am quoting properly and yet it doesn't come up the way it should. Oh, well! :confused1:
May I remind everyone here that at one time in our Church's history there were three popes. Each "pope" had at least one great saint backing him as the real one. Only one of those great saints were right and yet they are all in Heaven by decree of the Church. We need to keep the Faith and if that is the only thing our priests talk about from the pulpit, the epistles and gospels in the light of tradition, then that is certainly enough to get us to Heaven. What else is necessary? Or do you all know better than Bishop Tissier and Bishop de Galerreta?
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Or do you all know better than Bishop Tissier and Bishop de Galerreta?
What would happen to them if they spoke their minds freely?
Bishop Fellay is not anyone's bishop. He's not anyone's ordinary. His position in the SSPX is not an official church position.
The very moment he starts to compromise there is no longer any reason to follow him. The whole justification for following him in his irregular situation depends on him not compromising.
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The statement, "I am neither for an agreement nor against one", seems to be the favored response of the compliant SSPX clergy. I have heard these words from no less than three priests and two SSPX school teachers. Interesting!
We cannot be indecisive in regard to the Holy Faith lest we place ourselves in a position to be vomited out of His Mouth.
The "cowards" in Dante's Divine Comedy are introduced in Canto III thusly:
As the two poets enter the vestibule that leads to Hell itself, Dante sees the inscription above the gate, and he hears the screams of anguish from the damned souls. Rejected by God and not accepted by the powers of Hell, the first group of souls are "nowhere," because of their cowardly refusal to make a choice in life. Their punishment is to follow a banner at a furious pace forever, and to be tormented by flies and hornets....
Later:
And he to me: "This wretched state of being
is the fate of those sad souls who lived a life
but lived it with no blame and with no praise.
Heaven, to keep its beauty, cast them out,
but even Hell itself would not receive them,
for fear the damned might glory over them."
Canto III, lines 34-42
I repeat again and again, this is shallow and judgemental talk. What utter nonsense quoting Dante to imply that those who do not agree with you are cowards. Thank God you have no authority. There are many in this crisis who do not know what to think and have not yet decided and many more who have been around long enough to know when to speak and when to keep their opinions to themselves.
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Well, so many people on the pro-Fellay side have attacked them, so it's natural for the anti-deal side to be wary. Sorry about that. But we don't believe this to be a matter of politics but of preserving the Faith. The argument is summarized thus: since when has Rome ever kept its promises to allow the groups under it to remain free from Vatican II? As it is right now, it is ѕυιcιdє to broker a deal with Rome.
None of us should be attacking any of the priests. I have seen the most amazingly disrespectful cartoons made with Bishop Fellay and Father Rostand as the object of derision that I am astonished. For me, I am against an agreement with Modernist Rome.
I hope you note that only one or two members are into creating/posting such graphics. They are NOT approved by CathInfo, or even the majority of members here.
In fact, my personal opinion is that they are counter-productive and a bad idea.
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The very moment he starts to compromise there is no longer any reason to follow him. The whole justification for following him in his irregular situation depends on him not compromising
This is what I keep asking all those who follow him, even when they insist there is no deal, and they never have a reply.
It seems to me it is one of the most obvious problems with a "deal" with Rome, the SSPX will be another indult. I would think it is enough for the faithful to fight against any deal.
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Well, so many people on the pro-Fellay side have attacked them, so it's natural for the anti-deal side to be wary. Sorry about that. But we don't believe this to be a matter of politics but of preserving the Faith. The argument is summarized thus: since when has Rome ever kept its promises to allow the groups under it to remain free from Vatican II? As it is right now, it is ѕυιcιdє to broker a deal with Rome.
None of us should be attacking any of the priests. I have seen the most amazingly disrespectful cartoons made with Bishop Fellay and Father Rostand as the object of derision that I am astonished. For me, I am against an agreement with Modernist Rome.
I hope you note that only one or two members are into creating/posting such graphics. They are NOT approved by CathInfo, or even the majority of members here.
In fact, my personal opinion is that they are counter-productive and a bad idea.
Yes, Matthew, I have noted it and I appreciate the fact that you are perhaps the voice of reason here. Thank you! And you are right, of course, it is counterproductive in the extreme. The ones who do this sort of thing will be viewed as agitators.
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Or do you all know better than Bishop Tissier and Bishop de Galerreta?
What would happen to them if they spoke their minds freely?
Bishop Fellay is not anyone's bishop. He's not anyone's ordinary. His position in the SSPX is not an official church position.
The very moment he starts to compromise there is no longer any reason to follow him. The whole justification for following him in his irregular situation depends on him not compromising.
So, do you admit that it is prudence that keeps Bishop Tissier from speaking further? Or do you accuse him of cowardice? And if it is prudence for him, then why not for everyone?
Regarding your second sentence, where is the logic in this argument? It doesn't matter what position in the Church one holds, if he compromises with Modernism, we cannot follow him no matter who he is. Would we not all be very happy to follow Pope Benedict if he abandoned his Modernist thinking and acting? By the same token, shouldn't we be glad to follow Bishop Fellay if he gets things back on track? Archbishop Lefebfvre had great confidence in Bishop Fellay and said he was a saint and that that was why he chose such a young man for the bishopric. Archbishop Lefebvre was a great saint and he almost, no in fact he did, make a great mistake. So cannot a young Bishop Fellay be allowed any mistakes if he corrects them? The fact is, he hasn't led us anywhere away from tradition as yet. I pray that we will hear once again that there can be no agreement without Rome returning to tradition. The SSPX will not turn the tide but it will be the Immaculata to works that miracle.
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So, do you admit that it is prudence that keeps Bishop Tissier from speaking further?
No, I don't admit it is prudence.
Or do you accuse him of cowardice? And if it is prudence for him, then why not for everyone?
I don't say it's cowardice. That being said, there is clearly FEAR that is felt and is being imposed by THREATS.
Regarding your second sentence, where is the logic in this argument? It doesn't matter what position in the Church one holds, if he compromises with Modernism, we cannot follow him no matter who he is.
Except he says he wishes to follow the Pope, who is a modernist. Where is the logic in the argument? Where is the logic in saying that Catholics must obey him, when he is not their ordinary, but must not obey the Pope, but must obey him in obeying the Pope? There is no logic at all.
As it stands, your denial that my argument has logic is pitiful. Where is it not logical?
Would we not all be very happy to follow Pope Benedict if he abandoned his Modernist thinking and acting? By the same token, shouldn't we be glad to follow Bishop Fellay if he gets things back on track?
Except the SSPX no longer requires doctrinal agreement for a practical agreement. So how could things possibly be "back on track"?
Archbishop Lefebfvre had great confidence in Bishop Fellay and said he was a saint and that that was why he chose such a young man for the bishopric. Archbishop Lefebvre was a great saint and he almost, no in fact he did, make a great mistake.
And he also chose Bishop Williamson, who is now expelled.
"Saint" Bernard calls the Jews "elder brothers" who "share the covenant"
His actions are not saintly. They are perfidious.
So cannot a young Bishop Fellay be allowed any mistakes if he corrects them? The fact is, he hasn't led us anywhere away from tradition as yet.
Incorrect, the SSPX, under his leadership, is no longer traditional. This is proven by its new associations.
I pray that we will hear once again that there can be no agreement without Rome returning to tradition. The SSPX will not turn the tide but it will be the Immaculata to works that miracle.
Well, if that's what you hope, and you speak it freely, why shouldn't the priests speak it freely?
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Invariably, the pro-Fellay side never argues with the position advanced.
Instead of admitting that Bishop Fellay does not have authority over Catholics, they change the subject - to saying "why should we follow anyone who is a modernist" - Very well then - why should there be then a practical agreement without doctrinal agreement? Why don't the priests speak against "Saint" Fellay?
If he's doing wrong, why are they AFRAID to challenge him?
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A "consensus" is formed by threats and compulsion: then it is passed off as voluntary agreement - and those who point out the force being applied are accused of insulting the cowed! It is repulsive hypocrisy, but unfortunately, it's what happens when false obedience replaces truth as the guide - as it has in the SSPX. And that is why it has been planning the deal with Rome - because this false idea of what it means to be Catholic is now the standard within that group.
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I was not implying that anyone is a coward, per se. I realize that many people hold their opinions until they feel that all the facts are in. But Christ did say that the lukewarm will be vomited out of his mouth. And Dante did put the cowards just outside the gate of Hell because they avoid taking a stand for anything. I didn't write it, he did.
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The ones who do this sort of thing will be viewed as agitators.
By whom, Sapon? It's blatantly obvious you have been asked to join Cath Info.
You speak of agitators?
Any comment on The Rothschild-Gutmann Money Behind the SSPX Kosher Imperative
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.ie/2012/11/the-rothschild-gutmann-money-behind.html
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Leaving aside the use of term 'wacko', being on another dimension and internet rumour can Sapon discuss facts?
"Internet rumour" Yes or No?
The Rothschild-Gutmann Money Behind the SSPX Kosher Imperative
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.ie/2012/11/the-rothschild-gutmann-money-behind.html
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Bishop Fellay may realize his mistakes and steer the Society back to a safer course and there are signs of this already. But even if not, I believe that the other two bishops who have managed to stay within the SSPX won't allow her to be turned over to Modernist Rome.
Was it a mistake to expel Bishop Williamson? Is this a 'mistake' you reference to?
Do you admit the Society has been steered in the wrong direction? Why state 'steer Society back to a safer course"? Signs of what already? Can you explain what you mean,Sapon?
Can you outline the mistakes Bishop Fellay made? He claims he was deceived by Rome but you remember he made these comments in a room full of those, who share his world view and generally are accordist.
Fr Steiner, an accordist stated the expulsion of Bishop Williamson facilitates the deal so who do you reconcile this with your comment on steering the Society back to a 'safer course'?
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And quite naturally Fr Rostand and others will dismiss people as 'agitators'. The problem for them is these people are not 'agitators' .
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For all of you who think you need to lecture us here in St. Mary's
A "sapon" in Latino Caribbean slang means a man that interrupts a couple, a bothersome interrupter.
A curious choice of a name.
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Archbishop Lefebfvre had great confidence in Bishop Fellay and said he was a saint and that that was why he chose such a young man for the bishopric.
Please post the source for this comment "said he was a saint".
Bp. Fellay was not among the bishops chosen by Abp. Lefebvre, he was suggested in the last minute by a big benefactor, and included as the 4th bishop. The first choice was Bishop Williamson, and as I remember, he was the only candidate initially submitted for approval to the pope.
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Archbishop Lefebfvre had great confidence in Bishop Fellay and said he was a saint and that that was why he chose such a young man for the bishopric.
If he said such a fool thing, he was obviously wrong. :facepalm:
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MaterDominici, I only heard yesterday that any priests other than ours had been here. I support that bishop and those priests with my prayers. However, as long as we have such wonderful priests as Father de la Tour, Father Desautard and many of the rest whom I know ( I do not know our new rector), there is no need to go looking elsewhere for what we have in our own chapel.
I am against any deal until Rome returns to traditional Catholic doctrine but good Catholic doctrine is all we are hearing from our pulpit. And I do believe, in answer to your question, that I will recognize that particular storm when it comes.
It is not what they are saying in their sermons. Its what their not saying.
This is exactly it. Sapon you say you would recognize a compromise and would act accordingly once the time comes. The problem with this is two-fold:
1) the deal will already be done and those who are against it will be forced out of SSPX churches because they will already be in Rome's hands and
2) the mindset of the majority is already being conditioned to accept a practical agreement without doctrinal solution so even if YOU recognize it, albeit too late, but at least then, what of all the other hundreds of thousands of SSPX parishioners?
Let's discuss the mindset. You are there and seem to be able to discuss this intelligently. How many people have said something along the lines of
"Bishop Fellay has the graces to discern. We don't."
"Reconciliation would be so nice. We've been fighting so long but we could do a lot of good reconciled."
"It's true the Pope is more traditional now, he has good intentions."
"The priests/bishop expelled deserve it for being disobedient."
People are already conditioned to think Bishop Fellay cannot err, a dangerous position to have in modern times when faithful (and especially SSPXers) should know that it is a DIY era with regards to study of the Faith and the crisis. There is a big difference between receiving the graces to do your duty of state and actually corresponding with them. I cannot judge if +Fellay is corresponding with his graces, obviously, but the "reasoning" that he receives these graces, therefore cannot err, is very dangerous grounds. Yes, he receives them, no one can argue that. Does he correspond with them? No one, not those against him nor those for him can answer that with certainty. This "line" people are mindlessly using settles nothing, it only begs another question.
When was the last time you heard a rousing sermon against modernist Rome and against Vatican II? A sermon that reminded everybody of just why they attend the SSPX Mass, besides the niceties of the TLM? A sermon that reminded everyone what is at stake in this fight? A sermon that renewed everyone's conviction not to give one iota to Vatican II or all would be lost? A sermon that repeated ABL's strong stance and strong words against even the slightest brush with the modern heresies?
People have forgotten not only what they are fighting for, but that they are even in a fight. For their lives. For their eternal lives, and that of posterity especially.
Anyone willing to accept a practical agreement without doctrinal solution has already given in to a compromise and lost the SSPX spirit. I've heard this "it would be so nice to reconcile" from old-timers who should know better but who haven't been reminded in much too long. The dilution is such that in a mere one or two more generations, it will be lost if this generation doesn't wake up and start teaching their children to be vigilant.
Bishop Fellay already tested out what the response would be when he said in an interview that much of Vatican II wasn't the problem, just people's interpretations of it. Those who rang emergency bells -- gone. Or silenced with threats. The majority didn't bat an eye and/or remained silent. This is good news for a future compromise.
Then the convenient announcement months later that the SSPX turned down the deal because Rome wanted VII accepted. Yet...it had already been announced that Rome had turned the SSPX down... And +Fellay had already been speaking in semi-positive tones towards VII. How short do they think our memories are? Not to mention the vast paper trail wherein all of this can be traced. But, you would have to go trace it yourself. Most will not. It's much easier to play zombie, repeating "internet rumors...internet rumors..."
How many have you heard say "Oh + Fellay will not do anything that isn't unanimous." Well, of course it will be unanimous if the dissenters are expelled!
What of the fact that 3 bishops objected to the 1? You are in St Mary's, did this raise any eyebrows to think hmmm, maybe we should be keeping a closer eye on what's going on? Or is that chalked up to internet rumors and dissidents too?
ALL of this turns the mindset positively towards a compromise. Or at least to the idea that all will follow +Fellay regardless of where. Even those who do not want compromise will be so conditioned to think only +Fellay can discern such things that they will follow and go along with any rationalizations presented to them.
For those who will wake up later, once the deal is done and the mistake cannot be undone, they will have to start over from scratch. Is this what you are waiting for? Mass in hotel rooms again? This is already happening, people are being pushed around and forced out even without a deal, imagine when there is one? We cannot speak boldly against a deal when there is not one, what makes you think anyone will be permitted to speak boldly against it when there is one?!
I understand the stand and wait position, I held it for a while, but look down the road and you quickly see it is not a viable position to hold.
This does not mean leave your parish or withhold funds or become an agitator etc... The least that parishioners could do, and it would be a powerful action, would be to send +Fellay a message that we will stand by ABL's position of no practical agreement without doctrinal solution. Perhaps you could write him a letter, respectfully expressing your loyalty, your support and your expectation that he will not stray from this mission. Imagine if all the stand-and-waiters at least did this? Then the question of whether +Fellay is acting out of good or bad will becomes moot. The parishioners will not follow a compromise, period, they stand by principle, not his good or bad will. It's a much more solid rock to anchor yourself on, don't you think? Instead we have many, many people who are purposely sticking their heads in the sand and/or waiting until it's too late. This is the gut-wrenching part to watch.
Again, many are saying "Well, ABL did this back in the 80's, +Fellay is only doing what ABL did." Right, and what ABL backed out of once he realized what a mistake this was!! He set the precedent NOT to enter into practical agreements without doctrinal solutions. He did not intend for this mistake to be repeated. It should strike fear into every SSPX heart how close we came to the iceberg.
My message for all stand-and-waiters is this -- at least, at the very least, please send your hand-written letters to +Fellay. Signed by your whole families including your children, your groups of friends, whole parishes. Express all your love and admiration if you wish. Express your support. Express your expectations that he will uphold the true SSPX position of no practical agreement without doctrinal solution. That line needs to be drilled into every SSPX mind and we should not fear to hold our superiors to that. It's the reason we are SSPX and not sede or FSSP.
If someone refuses to do so, you will invariably uncover one of the above mindsets that is ready and even willing to compromise. And we're back at square one.
As far as the idea that we are to live our lives as faithful Catholics and not engage in this drama, I partially agree. I have a different forum wherein this stuff is "taboo" so to speak. Wherein we focus on Catholic daily life. No politics. So I get it, I know what you are saying. But there is a big difference between not allowing oneself to be detrimentally consumed by the politics and simply being purposely ignorant. Those saints on all sides of the Popes did their due diligence and chose their positions based on the belief that it was the correct position. They didn't default into them for lack of any action at all.
If nothing else, the politics should drive us to live more fully as Catholics than ever before. How else will we and our children and our children's children receive the grace to keep their Faith? How else will they receive graces to discern where to attend Mass? These "politics" boil down to the ability to receive the sacraments. For those who understand how this would affect future generations if the SSPX were to fail in their mission of not compromising, this is a very grave matter. It means the salvation or loss of many, many souls. The souls of our own children included. If that's not something to drive your Catholic life and force you to take a stand, I don't know what is.
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Bishop Fellay may realize his mistakes and steer the Society back to a safer course and there are signs of this already. But even if not, I believe that the other two bishops who have managed to stay within the SSPX won't allow her to be turned over to Modernist Rome.
Was it a mistake to expel Bishop Williamson? Is this a 'mistake' you reference to?
Do you admit the Society has been steered in the wrong direction? Why state 'steer Society back to a safer course"? Signs of what already? Can you explain what you mean,Sapon?
Can you outline the mistakes Bishop Fellay made? He claims he was deceived by Rome but you remember he made these comments in a room full of those, who share his world view and generally are accordist.
Fr Steiner, an accordist stated the expulsion of Bishop Williamson facilitates the deal so who do you reconcile this with your comment on steering the Society back to a 'safer course'?
Speaking of "Bishop Fellay may realize his mistakes and steer the Society back to a safer course".....
When looking at all the docuмents/evidence/actions of Bp. Fellay since 1997 towards this reconciliation, it should seem obvious to any rational mind that this is NOT a mistake he made, but rather has been his plan all along.
Now, wouldn't it seem appropriate to admit to a mistake when there isn't any mistake made?
On the other hand.....
If he was truly sorry for his "mistakes", shouldn't Bp. Fellay make some sort of public apology for throwing his very own brothers (Bp. Williamson and 28+ priests of the society) out into the streets and make amends by inviting them back into the society? While also stepping down from his position as Superior General and letting another Bishop who's more fit can take his place?
Or is it they are all disobedient in speaking the truth and were just getting in the way of Bp. Fellay's original plan?
What is the "safer course" for a Catholic to take?
Strive for justice for thy soul, and even unto death fight for justice, and God will overthrow thy enemies for thee. Ecclesiasticus 4:33
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Well said Wallflower!!!
:applause:
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To say that I am neither for a deal or against one simply means that it is not the sole thought of my day, nor does it even comprise a fraction of my thoughts. Instead I concentrate on "imitating Christ" as best I can through living a thoroughly Catholic life by exercising virtue. I have prayed and continue to pray for God's will to be done in regards to the SSPX, whatever that may be. I then go about my day trying to live as Blessed Dom Columba Marmion instructed his monks to live:
"During the day let us think of our morning Mass. We were then united to the immolation of Jesus and placed upon the altar with the Divine Victim; let us then accept generously the sufferings, the vexations, the burdens of the day and the heat thereof, the difficulties and self-denial inherent to the common life. Thus we shall practically live our Mass. Indeed is not our heart an altar whence the incense of our sacrifice and our submission to his adorable Will unceasingly rises up to God? What altar could be more pleasing to Him than a heart full of love constantly offered up to Him. For we can always sacrifice upon this altar, and offer ourselves with the Son of his love, for His glory and the welfare of souls." Christ, The Ideal of the Monk
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very good posts, wallflower and mea culpa. would that we could rise above the trials and vexations that beset us... but all souls are not the same... and we are rightly disturbed at the divisions we see now in the sspx,indeed we would be lacking in our sense of Faith, if we were unpeturbed by them. writing to BF is a waste of time and effort, those who have written can attest to that. if he has such scant regard for BW and faithful Priests, layfolk completely off his radar... i know from experience, the fence sitters will carry the day, the indultists will rejoice, that we have seen the light, and BF will convince himself and others the he will bring traditional Doctrine back to rome, and novus ordos wont even notice, their priests will contine to play to the gallerey, with their make it up as i go along liturgies... the older priests of sspx, who are so caught up in their obidience, will die of broken hearts, and in a few years, people will wonder what all the fuss was about....sure, dont we all worship the same god......
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cronier,
It sounds like "pray, pay and obey".
Catholics have a responsibility to be active in their faith, or there wouldn't be conversions. Teaching other people about the faith, passing on sacramentals, holy cards, bringing someone to the Mass, praying the rosary with them - all contribute to conversions and all because someone passed on the faith. These are also part of our Catholic duty. If we believe the devil exists, and see him working hard to destroy the Catholic Church, then we have a responsibility to say and do something. But, I get the impression that Catholics think that is the job of priests. I wouldn't be Catholic today, if someone hadn't shown me how to pray the rosary and taken me to the Mass. I wouldn't have read any books about Tradition, if others had not lent them to me.
Prayer gives us the Grace to act, the enemy knows it better than us and will try to prevent us from action. But, I think some Catholics believe that is the job of priests and religious.
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I think you have misundertood Dom Marmion. Yes, padrepio we are all called to bring others to the faith. I agree with you. But that begins with my imitating Christ, the real Christ, not the Christ of my imagination, my own subjective interpretation of who I wish him to be, but who he really is. That can only happen if I spend time alone with him in prayer, in mortifications, in exercising virtue and then through the sacraments his grace infuses into me his own Life, literally.
I state that more people are converted to the Church by way of the example and deeds of faithful Catholics than by words. Ultimately it is the Holy Ghosts who converts others...not you...not me...not even a priest.
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Absolutely! But you are quoting monks whose lives are devoted to prayer. Thank God for them and what they have done for us and the Church.
Prayer first, no doubt about it!
BTW: I agree we are not doing God any favors converting others. He is the one doing us the favor.
Do you think God works through us, as well as prayer? If not you would be wasting your time posting.
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God certainly communicates through us but He needs a "clear channel" in order for his communication to get through to us. Often times we are so clogged up with self-love that we cannot "hear" God at all let alone act on his behalf. In other words we must first empty ourselves of ourselves (another monastic saying) so that he can work through us by his grace. This can only happen through prayer, mortification, and virtue. It is a lifelong process. It is not just a costume we put on in the morning, a one-time off event, one size fits all. Instead it is something we become through a lifetime, a lifetime of much work and combat with ourselves and other forces. As we become more like Christ by way of the aforementioned practices, then yes, God will and does work through us for his glory, not ours.
Perhaps I am more of sinner than most here and need more time in prayer with Our Lord, getting to know him so that I can BE him for others. That is not false humlity. I know what kind of life I have lived (a very sinful one in the past) and so does God. The amount of reparation I need to do for my own soul is huge. I was addressing why I say I am neither "for a deal or against one." For me to get bogged down in what I call politics would hinder me from making the necessary advancement in the spiritual life and the necessary reparation that I need to do. I can only answer for myself in this life (and in the next) and that is what I was doing in quoting Dom Marimon. Yes, I do look to monks and the early monastics, Church Fathers for inspiration. To me, they were the real warriors because they ultimately conquered themselves and the devil....through a lifetime of prayer, mortification, and virtue.
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Cronier, I doubt there's anyone here who would disagree with you. You speak so well of our need to cultivate an interior life. The disagreement comes with the context of this speech. Your context holds that a life of virtue, a life of imitation of Christ and of the saints excludes being wise and prudent in upholding the Faith.
If you are up here I doubt you have the vocation of the cloistered or the hermit (at the present moment at least). This means you are laity in the world and as disagreeable a job as it is to many, we do have the duty of maintaining some level of awareness and care for the politics. This is a facet of a life of virtue. It is far from the whole of virtue but it is certainly a facet of it.
And we do have to answer for others. We answer for ourselves, yes, but we have to answer for our children, for our friends and family, for hardened sinners for whom we should be gaining graces, for all those directly or indirectly affected by our actions, be they as bad examples or in the omission of good actions. How many will have to answer for their omission to stand strong in the face of compromise of the Faith? Far too many! Each one must decide for himself that it won't be him.
If a person is confused and unsure of what stance to take regarding a compromise, that's one thing. But they should realize their uncertainty and admit it rather than pretend the neither here nor there stance is derived from the practice of virtue. There are too many saints gone before us who have blown that theory to pieces, including ABL himself. There is practice of virtue to be derived from taking up a position.
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Well said, Wallflower!
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I understand your point wallflower. I take a stand in my Faith by trying to live a thoroughly Catholic life, in all things. I find I can accomplish this best by attending an SSPX chapel. There, I get wonderful priests, sound sermons, catechesis, all the Sacraments and I have for several years now. Were that to ever change I would make the necessary adjustments.
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well it has changed for some of us.......
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I understand your point wallflower. I take a stand in my Faith by trying to live a thoroughly Catholic life, in all things. I find I can accomplish this best by attending an SSPX chapel. There, I get wonderful priests, sound sermons, catechesis, all the Sacraments and I have for several years now. Were that to ever change I would make the necessary adjustments.
I attend SSPX chapels as well and have for nearly my whole life. I'm hoping never to have to make that adjustment; hence, encouraging SSPX priests and faithful both by word and prayer not to allow or settle for a deal that would dilute the Faith preached to us. Being vigilant is a preventative measure.
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Wallflower,
Thank you for saying so well, what I was trying to point out. Unfortunately, I don't think Cronier is getting it. But, others who are reading these posts might!
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I understand your point wallflower. I take a stand in my Faith by trying to live a thoroughly Catholic life, in all things. I find I can accomplish this best by attending an SSPX chapel. There, I get wonderful priests, sound sermons, catechesis, all the Sacraments and I have for several years now. Were that to ever change I would make the necessary adjustments.
I attend SSPX chapels as well and have for nearly my whole life. I'm hoping never to have to make that adjustment; hence, encouraging SSPX priests and faithful both by word and prayer not to allow or settle for a deal that would dilute the Faith preached to us. Being vigilant is a preventative measure.
Understood.
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I state that more people are converted to the Church by way of the example and deeds of faithful Catholics than by words. Ultimately it is the Holy Ghosts who converts others...not you...not me...not even a priest.
And St. Francis of Assissi said, " Preach always; and sometines you must speak"
By example is desireable, less chance for misunderstandings.
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Well said, Wallflower!
Exactly. And it fits nicely with a sermon I heard this last Sunday on the General Judgement.
Ultimately, everyone is going to have to make a choice. It would be wise and prudent to at least start thinking about it now.
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We have been through all of the SSPX splits and we have seen a lot of people come and go.
This split is totally different, for it is coming from the top down. It is coming from Menzingen, Bishop Fellay believes the he is outside of the Church, and he will do anything to get back.
Some folks move here for the wrong reasons and expect some kind of utopia. .... we have daily Mass several times of the day and one as late as 11:00.
Before Vatican II, many fallen away Catholics and Protestants were converted after hearing just one profound sermon, while attending funeral service for someone they knew.
In the same way, the SSPXers that came for the "wrong reasons and expect some kind of utopia", can be instructed by a good priests as to why they are there. A good priest, who cares for his sheep, will grab the opportunity to convert the people.
The problem, as I keep saying, is that the SSPX has changed, and they have consciously decided to control the sermons by removing all militancy from the sermons. They have stopped connecting the sermons to the real world. The Novus Ordo church has been doing it since the 1960's, they could preach each and every day (they have sermons every day, not just Sundays) and still keep the people dumb by not tying it to how it applies today. I could preach all day about faith, hope, charity, love, peace, the Ten Commandments, if however, I don't connect them to how they apply today, they are all useless sermons. This is what the SSPX has been consciously promoting among the priests for like at least 10 years now. NO militancy and no direction.
You see, it does not matter why a person initially comes to an SSPX chapel, unless they are left that way, and if they are left that way, it is the fault of the SSPX. In the long run, nothing happens in politics by chance. If the SSPX faithful go to mass at a chapel because they like the music, then, they are ignorant because the SSPX wants them that way.
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Someone on CI said it very succinctly, what you people fail to understand, is that Bishop Fellay and his cohorts now believe that they are outside of the Church. He is trying to get back in.
Here it is in a Fr. Pfeiffer sermon, all comments by him, nothing added by me:
[So the interviewer says, Okay,] "Since you seem so little disposed to compromise, why do you still hold discussions with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith?"
The answer of Fr. Pfluger: "Because the pope and Rome are realities inseparable from the Faith. The loss of faith in the Church's structures—a loss of faith from which we have been spared, thanks be to God—is only one aspect of the crisis in the Church. For our part, we suffer also from a defect: the fact of our canonical irregularity. The status of the post-conciliar Church is imperfect, nor is our status the ideal."
So Fr. Pfluger says another new teaching of the Society: There are two parts of the crisis in the Church. One part is the loss of Faith of the Romans. The loss of Faith. Now it's interesting how it's said. "Loss of Faith." "Loss of Faith" and not "heresy." We are agnostics who walk away from the Faith but maybe have no specific heresies that we can point to. "Loss of Faith." We're dealing with more than the loss of Faith, somebody who has walked away from the Faith. We're dealing with Modernist heresy in Rome. We're dealing with an active teaching of grave evils against the teaching of the Catholic Church. We're not dealing with simply a "loss of Faith." But Fr. Pfluger refers to it as: 'The first part of the crisis is a kind of loss of Faith. The second part is our irregularity.'
It's a bit like a wife. A man is married and the wife leaves the husband. The wife goes and lives with another man. The wife kicks the husband out of the house a then she says, "You're a bad husband. You don't even live with me!"
"Well, you kicked me out of the house! You're living with some other guy!"
"Don't change the subject! You're a bad husband because you're not living with me. Don't just say I'm a bad wife because I've living in adultery and because I'm living with another man, and because I took all your things!"
You know, you have a Divorced Barbie. She comes along with Ken's stuff. So, you know, "I've got all your things. I drive your truck. I've got your house. I've got a new husband. Stop complaining about all that stuff! You're not bringing home a paycheck. You're not coming home
and taking care of me. You're not living we me and THAT's irregular. You're a BAD husband. Don't just say I'm a bad wife!"
And so the husband says, "You're right. I should be living with you. Just because you won't let me live with you; just because you're living with somebody else, it's still no excuse. You're right. You're right." That guy is a fruitcake!
The fact is that the irregularity of the Society of Saint Pius X is NOT a problem. Archbishop Lefebvre was angry in 1990. He said, 'I'm angry with these people. I'm upset with these people who say it's so sad we're not approved. It's so sad that we're in an irregular situation. It's so sad that they call us 'excommunicated.''' Well, if you think it's so sad, you've got to make up your mind! It is not sad to be persecuted for the truth! Our Lord Jesus Christ said at the end of the eighth beatitude: "Blessed are you when men persecute and revile you for My Name's sake. It is an honor."
Have you ever seen a picture of St. Paul? He's pictured with a sword. Why is he pictured with a sword? Because it was a sword that was used to cut off his head. St. Peter is with a cross, upside down because he was crucified upside down, and each martyr is pictured with the cause of their martyrdom because it is their glory.
With us, we would say, "Look, I, I don't like lightning." -- One of our parishioners here got struck by lightning. Whenever the lightning would come--I was a priest and the lightning would come and he goes and hides in the corner. "I don't like lightning!" When in the Church, when the lightning comes--we got struck by lightning and we go looking for it.
Whatever is the cause of our persecution for Christ's sake is our glory! It is NOT something to be disturbed about. It is NOT a problem and if we begin to think it's a problem, we're starting to act like foolish women and no man can do that, even in our modern feminist society in which women run everything. We can't do that.
There is not a problem with our canonical irregularity. And if there IS a problem, it's a problem of those idiots that made us irregular! It is the problem of those who decided that we are not approved!
Once, I was meeting with the Bishop of Phoenix, Arizona, Bishop Olmsted, the new bishop at the time. He said, "You know what my problem is with you?" And I said, "What? What Bishop? What is your problem?" "My problem is you're not approved!" and I said, "Okay. All you have to do is approve of us and the problem is solved!" And he goes, "Well, ah, can't do that." I told him, "Okay. There's nothing I can do about it."
If I was a bishop, one of the first things I would do would be to approve of me, but I'm not the bishop, so it's not my problem. MY problem is to preach the Faith, live the Faith, and go by the Faith and if you approve of it, fine. I'm happy! And if you don't, I'm still happy.
We don't care about irregularity. Absolute foolishness. And yet the new teaching of the Society of St. Pius X is our irregularity and it is a sad and tragic thing.
What is tragic is the loss of Faith. What is tragic is the abuse of authority. What is tragic is the evil that is going on inside of Rome and inside of the bishops and now inside of the authorities of the Society of Saint Pius X who are using their authority to threaten, using their authority to drive people away from the Sacraments, using their authority to drive people with an iron fist and a whip back into the arms of Rome who are the wolves that will destroy us and our sheep. That's what's happening now, and that's a tragedy but it's THEIR tragedy; it's not ours.
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they are ignorant because the SSPX wants them that way.
Absolutely, if they think the problem is "very, very limited religious liberty" and parts of Nostra Aetate (we know which parts are non-negotiable for Rome!) are okay, that the SSPX learned in the discussions that that things they condemned in the Council were not of the Council - if they don't understand the basics of what Archbishop Lefebvre taught about the modern Popes it is an intentional defect in the teachings given to them.
We can see what the demonization of sedevacantists over the years was about. The plan was to teach the SSPX followers to disregard statements revealing what these Popes believed as "sedevacantism" - eventually even to call those who adhered to the original SSPX position on these modern Popes "sedevacantists." It's all so shameless and dishonest, and yes, it's not by accident things developed this way. The cult mentality in the SSPX, regarding Bishop Fellay as some special Church leader, so high above the other bishops, etc, this has all been cultivated over the years. The families that feel so "special" and "important" in the SSPX because they have been flattered for their generosity and buying of influence are there to enforce the betrayal of the Archbishop by encouraging people to socially ostracize those who do't go along. And to turn on a dime against priests they supported for years. They have learned to go along with the SSPX leadership blindly, and to go along with expulsions blindly.
And it's not accidental. It's part of the design.
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they are ignorant because the SSPX wants them that way.
Absolutely, if they think the problem is "very, very limited religious liberty" and parts of Nostra Aetate (we know which parts are non-negotiable for Rome!) are okay, that the SSPX learned in the discussions that that things they condemned in the Council were not of the Council - if they don't understand the basics of what Archbishop Lefebvre taught about the modern Popes it is an intentional defect in the teachings given to them.
We can see what the demonization of sedevacantists over the years was about. The plan was to teach the SSPX followers to disregard statements revealing what these Popes believed as "sedevacantism" - eventually even to call those who adhered to the original SSPX position on these modern Popes "sedevacantists." It's all so shameless and dishonest, and yes, it's not by accident things developed this way. The cult mentality in the SSPX, regarding Bishop Fellay as some special Church leader, so high above the other bishops, etc, this has all been cultivated over the years. The families that feel so "special" and "important" in the SSPX because they have been flattered for their generosity and buying of influence are there to enforce the betrayal of the Archbishop by encouraging people to socially ostracize those who do't go along. And to turn on a dime against priests they supported for years. They have learned to go along with the SSPX leadership blindly, and to go along with expulsions blindly.
And it's not accidental. It's part of the design.
Tele,
You hit the nail on the head (again).
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(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQf80Ufu3aMMPv2RtDNKNG6ohiPDV96O11jbIWuH0c9OfoTu1pr)
Uh... where did Spano go ?
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For all of you who think you need to lecture us here in St. Mary's
A "sapon" in Latino Caribbean slang means a man that interrupts a couple, a bothersome interrupter.
A curious choice of a name.
Could this posting have chased away Sapon? He never posted again.
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For all of you who think you need to lecture us here in St. Mary's
A "sapon" in Latino Caribbean slang means a man that interrupts a couple, a bothersome interrupter.
A curious choice of a name.
Could this posting have chased away Sapon? He never posted again.
Goodness... I misspelled his name.
He must think we are so rude?
He tried running with an idea and he was gang tackled !
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRcy_fv-4TqrOBWwRxjfmIkOyHpqecSpl0LvGvG5IjJXm5FRAnIig)
If this is his first excursion on CI, he may be licking his wounds?
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For all of you who think you need to lecture us here in St. Mary's
A "sapon" in Latino Caribbean slang means a man that interrupts a couple, a bothersome interrupter.
A curious choice of a name.
Could this posting have chased away Sapon? He never posted again.
I was reminded of this. It was posted on Cath Info earlier in the year. The Irish Catholic patriot. It's not meant to be complimentary of him though.
He went to Mass on Sunday and he paid his Easter Dues;
And Father Fahey taught him about money and the Jews;
In defending faith and fatherland on the border and at home;
Maria Duce’s finest was Seán Sabhat of Garryowen.
And after Benediction as the sun was going down;
The pious confreres gathered with Seán Sabhat in Limerick Town;
They went around the cinemas, ‘observing’ courting pairs;
In protecting Ireland’s purity, Sabhat added action to his prayers.
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The ones who do this sort of thing will be viewed as agitators.
By whom, Sapon? It's blatantly obvious you have been asked to join Cath Info.
You speak of agitators?
Any comment on The Rothschild-Gutmann Money Behind the SSPX Kosher Imperative
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.ie/2012/11/the-rothschild-gutmann-money-behind.html
This is actually funny and it proves to me what I have come to think since I began to read the posts here. There is as much paranoia here as on the "pro-Fellay", as you call them, sites. I have been asked by no one to sign on here, in fact, in our chapel at St. Mary's, we are asked not to even read any of the forums, much less post on them.
So many of you, not all, seem to blindly following anything His Lordship, Bishop Williamson, or the "resistance priests" say that you do not think for yourselves any more than those who blindly follow what His Excellency, Bishop Fellay says. Many of you seem in a huge hurry to rush to judgement on everything.
I am not a cheerleader for either side because neither side is 100% without fault. Bishop Tissier most closely represents my take on the crisis. I have already stated I am against any agreement with Modernist Rome. I use the word "agitators" because that is the work many here are doing. Or does one have to be a student of Saul Alinsky to even know that word?
I do not follow personalities. I follow the magisterium of all time and I am a Third Order Member of the SSPX as long as it makes no agreement with Modernist Rome. I love the priests who have stayed and I love the priests who have left. I have good friends among both sets. I can see both sides and until and unless there is a deal made, I will continue to see both sides.
I came here to find some information as to what is happening that we, at the SSPX chapels, do not hear. I found cathinfo in a link from a French site I was following. The French who are for resistance express themselves eloquently and with intelligence, I love their site. But they are the people of the Vendee and they know what resistance means. And they do not attack St. Mary's, but on the contrary, they appreciate our sacrifices and the significance of this place that Archbishop Lefebvre prophesied would be the center of Catholicism in America. I was there when he said it and I have seen it come to fruition. The Society and St. Mary's belongs to Our Lady and She will protect them. By who else and where else are so many rosaries said every day?
For those who think my name represents some off-color slang term, how sad that you stoop to the level of grade-schoolers making fun of someone's name. And for those who think I am off "licking my wounds", you must be joking. I have lived in St. Mary's for about 30 years. My hide is thick as an elephant's. I've said my piece, have tried to interject some moderation into your more or less extreme and premature views, and I have not said one thing that is untrue. I know most of the priests involved and have seen them make mistakes in judgement before, taking nothing away from their sanctity. It may be that the Society will split between those who defend tradition and those who compromise with Modernism, but I believe that the die is not yet cast, and we should be patiently waiting to see what will happen. We should be praying for the SSPX and her leaders, making sacrifices and keeping one's peace of soul.
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"I've said my piece, have tried to interject some moderation into your more or less extreme and premature views, and I have not said one thing that is untrue. I know most of the priests involved and have seen them make mistakes in judgement before, taking nothing away from their sanctity. It may be that the Society will split between those who defend tradition and those who compromise with Modernism, but I believe that the die is not yet cast, and we should be patiently waiting to see what will happen. We should be praying for the SSPX and her leaders, making sacrifices and keeping one's peace of soul."
Pamphlet, A Bishop Speaks, From Beyond the Grave
1986 “In the Church there is no law or jurisdiction which can impose on a Christian a diminution of his faith. All the faithful can and should resist whatever interferes with their faith... If they are faced with an order putting their faith in danger of corruption, there is an overriding duty to disobey.... It is because we judge that our faith is endangered by the post-conciliar reforms and tendencies, that we have the duty to disobey and keep the Tradition. Let us add this, that the greatest service we can render to the Church and to the successor of Peter is to reject the reformed and liberal Church ... I am not of that religion. I do not accept that new religion. It is a liberal, modernist religion.... Christians are divided ... Priests no longer know what to do; either they obey blindly what their superiors impose on them, and lose to some degree the faith, or they resist, but with the feeling of separating themselves from the Pope...Two religions confront each other; we are in a dramatic situation and it is impossible to avoid a choice.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, 1986, Open Letter to Confused Catholics, chapter 18, “True & False Obedience”)
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Sapon said:
________________________________________________________________
It may be that the Society will split between those who defend tradition and those who compromise with Modernism, but I believe that the die is not yet cast, and we should be patiently waiting to see what will happen. We should be praying for the SSPX and her leaders, making sacrifices and keeping one's peace of soul.
_________________________________________________________________
Sapon,
I'm sorry to disagree with you.
The die is cast in the form of the SSPX's acceptance of the 80million Euro Jaidhofer fund, managed by their German zionist employee, Dr. Max Krah.
The Society has already compromised and suffered a split.
Being in St. Mary's you just don't realize it yet.
That's why Father Rostand is so emphatically against the SSPX faithful reading news from the non SSPX controlled internet.
We are already praying for the fortitude and perseverance of SSPX-Resistance Bishops and Priests.
Occasionally, we pray for the conversion of the leaders of SSPX-Judaized.
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For those who think my name represents some off-color slang term, how sad that you stoop to the level of grade-schoolers making fun of someone's name.
Nobody on Cathinfo thinks that but me, I was the one that made the comment. I never made "fun" of someones name. Certainly your real name is not Sapon.
I made a comment and a question. Why would you choose such a name?
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This is actually funny and it proves to me what I have come to think since I began to read the posts here. There is as much paranoia here as on the "pro-Fellay", as you call them, sites. I have been asked by no one to sign on here, in fact, in our chapel at St. Mary's, we are asked not to even read any of the forums, much less post on them.....
What you wrote "proves to me" that you came with that prejudice (There is as much paranoia everywhere, but you are balanced) to this site, and quickly revealed it.
Listen, I'm an SSPXer for like 15+ years, and a believer in EENS as it is written, a position that is opposed by the SSPX since the time of Abp. Lefebvre. And yet I came to the SSPX and this CI forum, and defended my postion against all comers, and never once answered those that disagreed with me with "it proves to me what I have come to think since I began to read the posts here. There is as much paranoia, hate (calling me a Feeneyite) , ignorance, whatever".
Therefore, either you defend your position with logic, and stick to the subject, the issues, the doctrinal and spiritual errors, or else it is best that you just get off the internet, you are just not cut out to debate.
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I am not a cheerleader for either side because neither side is 100% without fault. Bishop Tissier most closely represents my take on the crisis. I have already stated I am against any agreement with Modernist Rome.... I can see both sides and until and unless there is a deal made, I will continue to see both sides.
It may be that the Society will split between those who defend tradition and those who compromise with Modernism, but I believe that the die is not yet cast, and we should be patiently waiting to see what will happen.
The die had been cast, Bp. Fellay and the SSPX hierarchy had signed the 6 points of the accord, that is a fact. It is only the pope's not accepting the six points that the agreerment was not signed. Listen to Fr. Hewko's sermon "Fr David Hewko 02 Dec 2012 Toronto, Ontario, Canada" at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djfXbD5UDd8&feature=plcp, and go to the 25:25 minute mark, where he discusses your very point that "there is no deal yet, that we should wait". In there he explains why the 6 points themselves are already a surrender to the conciliar newspeak and ambiguity. The common layman just does not know how to read the new language.
Sapon said:
The Society and St. Mary's belongs to Our Lady and She will protect them. By who else and where else are so many rosaries said every day?
Lourdes, Fatima, Santiago de Compostela, Assisi, all of Rome, the Vatican, ALL Catholic churches belonged to Our Lady, and yet where are they today? What makes you think that St. Marys and the SSPX are immune to the same?
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This is actually funny and it proves to me what I have come to think since I began to read the posts here. There is as much paranoia here
Whilst not obliged to engage with you or dignify you with a reply, I did ask you were you asked to join Cath Info because in the past, several members were asked to join by certain clerics.Nothing to do with paranoia but based on facts.
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Yes, that is part of the problem. When you have lived in the midwest for so long you are not getting the full news from the East Coast which involves the many liberals within vatican II.
Who do you think put obama back in for another 4 more years? It was vatican II clergy and people in cities and east coast. Also, many ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ vatican II priests are waiting for same sex marriage.
You need to open your eyes. It was a waste of time dealing with rome when it is Rome that is the problem. the need is to come out of the chapels and reach out to the everyday novus ordo priests and people.
The sspx has to remain on the "outside" so it won't be swallowed by sin and apostacy of the devil.
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Yes, we need to get more copies of the book "open letter to confused Catholics" out to people and clergy of vatican II.
even give copies to Bishop Fellay and Father Rostand so they can understand why we can't go along with Rome which is in a state of apostacy which is far from silent.
Many "traditional" Catholics should have the courage to stand up and defend God, Our blessed Mother and the true Catholic Faith.
Yes, it is the year of Faith.
You are either Catholic or not.
"To Restore All Things In Christ!"
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You need to open your eyes. It was a waste of time dealing with rome when it is Rome that is the problem. the need is to come out of the chapels and reach out to the everyday novus ordo priests and people.
It's essential.