Author Topic: A leopard doesnt change its spots (Read 2087 times)

Matthew · « **on:** October 19, 2015, 11:32:49 AM »

Just think:

Consider an American woman born in 1970. What kind of family was she born in? Considering the facts, Catholic Tradition wasn't very popular back then, so she was probably born in a protestant family, or Novus Ordo Catholic if she was lucky.

How was she formed? Well, right off the bat Homeschooling wasn't popular among Baby Boomers (who did everything according to the American culture template), and the SSPX was pretty tiny and didn't have (any?) schools, so we can assume Public School.

What kind of world did she grow up in? A world filled with errors: relativism, American notion of democracy (authority coming from the people), feminism, materialism, and many others!

That is the soup she swam in for YEARS.

Then in 1992, 1995, or 1998, or 2001, or 2005 (you get the point) she found the SSPX, or the CMRI, or another Trad group and embraced Tradition. Virtually all of us are in this category. Either we converted from the Novus Ordo, or from some other religion. A few of us might be "cradle Trads", but based on my experience, that is rare.

Here's the question for us all to consider: Does this hypothetical woman carry any baggage? What kind of Trad Catholic is she? What ideas CONTRARY TO Traditional Catholicism does she carry inside her? How was she formed?

1. Just how much does her current SSPX (or other Trad group) Mass attendance overwrite her deeply-formed thought patterns, convictions, habits, etc.?
2. What if she were already married when she converted? Will she be able to convert her husband to a new lifestyle, husband/wife power dynamic, and way of thinking as well?
3. What if she had children over 3 when she converted? Will they be able to easily transition into a Trad mindset? What if they too are already in public school, have lots of (non-Trad) friends, etc?

I would suggest: these are very real problems. And I'm assuming a best-case scenario here, where the woman whole-heartedly embraces Tradition and wants to be a good Trad with all her will.

Anyone who has a habit of thinking deeply will be impressed by this consideration. The sheer POWER of formation on an individual. One's family upbringing, their "culture", forms who we are for life. Our environment, our teachers, teach us what questions to ask, and the best way to look at the world. One's friends, parents, teachers, peers, the school one attends, etc. make near-indelible marks on one's character.

These marks are not so easily erased by attending a Tridentine Mass for 1 hour a week.

That is why TV is so dangerous, and why I won't have one.

P.S. This applies equally to men, but I wanted to pick one, rather than make the hypothetical person androgynous :)

1st Mansion Tenant · « **Reply #1 on:** October 19, 2015, 11:38:47 AM »

I once told a priest that I was saddened by having been lapsed for so many years, especially since I thought I might have had a vocation as a young girl. He said I might be better off, since if I had become a NO nun I would probably be wearing a miniskirt while I picketed the power plant right now instead of being a trad.

LucasL · « **Reply #2 on:** October 19, 2015, 11:55:47 AM »

If wasn't for TV we wouldn't have any drug and/or satanic festivals. The last Catholic popular show was Bishop Fulton Sheen.
Today in large cities women dress like junkies, that's thanks to TV as well. There's a connection between all this famous media celebrities that supports all kinds of evil: every single one has became aware of black magic and the power of satanism by watching either a music clip or a music festival. Movies tell either destroy yourself and to worship men. Today you have all of this madness on the internet, unfortunately.

That's very sad to say but it's enough reason to believe that there's something going on on the west before WWII: demoralization of our people. Once demoralized it's very hard to revert the process.

I said one thing for sure: I will only be able to see the reality in 10 or 20 years. It's been very recent that I started to pray and study Catholicism. So it will take at least 10 years to get some kind of true reality.

LucasL · « **Reply #3 on:** October 19, 2015, 12:07:52 PM »

I grew up watching TV and believe me: it's going to take at least 10 years to have some reality and right judgement in my personality. No one that grew up watching TV and in a liberal christian home (like myself) can't deny it will take a good amount of years to get healthier. And BTW people outside cities where there's the true Mass it will require a huge amount of effort than those who can attend Mass and have a good priest around.

Jaynek · « **Reply #4 on:** October 19, 2015, 12:33:13 PM »

Matthew, you are so right about this. I have been noticing this issue in my life a lot lately. My case is even worse than the hypothetical one that you gave. I was raised in a Jєωιѕн family, became Protestant in my teens, and Novus Ordo Catholic in my early 20s. I had over 50 years of bad formation before finding tradition.

One top of all that, when I first came to tradition, I had no idea of how ignorant and poorly formed I actually was, so I argued incessantly with my betters from whom I should have been learning. So, even after I knew about tradition, there was very little progress in reversing my decades of bad formation. I am still a spiritual infant but at least I realize it now.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #5 on:** October 19, 2015, 01:13:05 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Then in 1992, 1995, or 1998, or 2001, or 2005 (you get the point) she found the SSPX, or the CMRI, or another Trad group and embraced Tradition. Virtually all of us are in this category. Either we converted from the Novus Ordo, or from some other religion. A few of us might be "cradle Trads", but based on my experience, that is rare.

Born in '83 my grandparents never attended the New Mass. I was baptized at the Novus Ordo because there were no groups in Tennessee yet but by '85 the Society began its Franklin hotel conference room temporary chapels and my family had found the Christ the King abbey in Cullman, Al to have Mass on the off sundays. It was only until a year or so ago that Tennessee got weekly Masses and its first episcopal visit.

So all my sacraments were in an SSPX chapel with the exception of baptism. I made my first communion before the "Hawaii nine" and I think that's the reason that the parish never registered my first communion but later registered my confirmation and marriage. So I've never attended the New Mass and traditional Catholicism is the only religion I have ever known. There's probably more "cradle traditional Catholics" in the U.S. than in Latin American countries.

Matthew · « **Reply #6 on:** October 19, 2015, 02:56:20 PM »

Quote from: Centroamerica

So all my sacraments were in an SSPX chapel with the exception of baptism. I made my first communion before the "Hawaii nine" and I think that's the reason that the parish never registered my first communion but later registered my confirmation and marriage. So I've never attended the New Mass and traditional Catholicism is the only religion I have ever known. There's probably more "cradle traditional Catholics" in the U.S. than in Latin American countries.

I don't know -- the SSPX was very small in the 1980's which means that most current-day SSPX families were "somewhere else" during that decade.

But for me it's not just speculation -- when I was in the SSPX seminary (2000 - 2003), I discovered to my surprise that most of the seminarians -- all but 2 -- grew up in Novus Ordo families who found tradition at some point. Some of them might have been in the SSPX for 20 years, but they still came from the Novus Ordo rather than some other Independent chapel.

Quite a few seminarians *remembered* their old Novus Ordo chapels. I was one of the rare ones from an "independent chapel". The other was Paul Robinson (who is now a priest) from Kentucky.

There were up to 65 seminarians the last year I was there.

Matto · « **Reply #7 on:** October 19, 2015, 03:29:57 PM »

I grew up in the Novus Ordo and I never learned about the faith, but I was always someone who as Bishop Williamson recently said "thinks out of the box." So when I was young, even though my parents were liberal, I was very conservative for someone in New York. I would listen to the conservative talk show hosts like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity and the others on WABC and this would make my dad angry because I was not a liberal like him. But I did not have the faith. When I got older I learned more about conservative issues and became a libertarian and supported Ron Paul. I was always drawn to conspiracy theories and came to believe in many of them. It was through libertarianism that I found out about the true faith because there are many libertarians who are also traditional Catholics and by reading libertarian websites I found links to traditional Catholic websites. The first one I found was MHFM but I was interested and soon found many other traditional Catholic websites thanks to google. I wanted to become a traditional Catholic but it was frightening to learn all about the replacement of the true Mass with a false Mass by satanists and the possibility that the Papacy was overthrown by the same satanists and replaced by fremasonic antipopes and that the true Pope was hiding in secret (one of the first traditional Catholic websites I found was "The Pope in Red"). I got very scared. But through traditio I found out that there was a traditional SSPX chapel in New York City that I could get to by subway and I got there (even though it didn't get a smiley face in the directory) and though many other things happened before I was a regular at the chapel, it was there that I encountered the true faith.

I believe I was well prepared when I encountered the faith to convert because I had already rejected most of the lies of the mainstream media and believed that nearly everything I learned in school except for maybe Math was brainwashing. Thankfully I was not married to a non-Catholic pants-wearer and did not have any children who were going to public school or any other such things that would make life converting to traditional Catholicism more difficult. I have a family who are not traditional Catholics but even though they have not converted they do not do anything to hinder me from living a Catholic life so I am grateful for that and I pray every day for their conversion. (I was recently rebuked on this forum for saying I thought most of my family members were going to be damned, but what am I supposed to say, they are not traditional Catholics and I believe that only traditional Catholics can be saved*. They may convert but it would require that they are open to conversion and that they receive a miracle of grace like I did. I don't know how often that happens. But even though I witnessed a true miracle and told my family about it, even then they were not interested in conversion).

Anyway I think that it is great that we have the internet. I don't know of any other way that I could have ever converted without all of the information I have learned on the internet and I bet that there are many other people who learn about the faith also because of the internet. The many traditional Catholic websites, Cathinfo being one of them, must be the cause of thousands of conversions including mine.

*By traditional Catholics I don't mean just those who attend SSPX chapels, but all of those who have the old faith and not the Novus Ordo false faith.

confederate catholic · « **Reply #8 on:** October 19, 2015, 03:39:20 PM »

Quote

The sheer POWER of formation on an individual. One's family upbringing, their "culture", forms who we are for life. Our environment, our teachers, teach us what questions to ask, and the best way to look at the world. One's friends, parents, teachers, peers, the school one attends, etc. make near-indelible marks on one's character.

this seems you are leaving no place for Grace. how does a Bartolo Longo fit in this scenario, he was a satanist before his conversion, do we all dispair because of not having a perfect formation? did this thing ever exist? when in church history did we have the perfect society?

we are supposed to be progressing in our faith daily. we should be different today than yesterday. we should be transforming through the sacraments.

Jaynek · « **Reply #9 on:** October 19, 2015, 03:46:14 PM »

Quote from: confederate catholic

Quote
The sheer POWER of formation on an individual. One's family upbringing, their "culture", forms who we are for life. Our environment, our teachers, teach us what questions to ask, and the best way to look at the world. One's friends, parents, teachers, peers, the school one attends, etc. make near-indelible marks on one's character.

this seems you are leaving no place for Grace. how does a Bartolo Longo fit in this scenario, he was a satanist before his conversion, do we all dispair because of not having a perfect formation? did this thing ever exist? when in church history did we have the perfect society?

we are supposed to be progressing in our faith daily. we should be different today than yesterday. we should be transforming through the sacraments.

Of course, Grace is more important for salvation, but it is much harder to live a good Catholic life without a good formation. There is a constant struggle against bad habits and poor understanding. It is like trying to run a race while carrying a heavy weight.

confederate catholic · « **Reply #10 on:** October 19, 2015, 03:57:04 PM »

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"My brother, if your soul were pure and upright before the Lord, you would be able to profit from all things of this life. If you were to see a wandering peddler, you would say to yourself: 'my soul, from the desire to earn fleeting, earthly goods, the peddler toils a great deal and endures much, concentrating on things which will not ultimately remain under his domain. Why, then, do you not look after those things which are eternal and incorruptible?' Once again, if you were to see those who dispute in court over financial matters, you would say: 'My soul, these people, often having not a single need, show such ardor and quarrel with such shouting between themselves. You, who owe to God a myriad of talents, why do you not implore God, bowing down as one should, to obtain cancellation of that debt?'

"If you were to see a builder making houses, you would again say: 'my soul, these same, even if they build houses from mud, show such great zeal to finish the work they have laid out. You, why are you indifferent to eternal structures and why do you not struggle to erect the abode of God within the soul, forming and joining the virtues by the will?'

"Now, in order not to be prolix in citing various circuмstances one by one, let us say that we must take care to transform our worldly thoughts and observations, which are born of our material perspective on things of the present life, to spiritual ones. Thereby, we shall profit from all things with the help and assistance of Divine Grace" (Saint Ephraim).

confederate catholic · « **Reply #11 on:** October 19, 2015, 04:00:20 PM »

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An elder gave this advice to a certain young man who asked him to tell him how to be saved: "Force yourself, my child, to do whatever the condemned do in prison. Hear them asking continually, with agony written on their faces: 'Where is the Governor? When is he coming? Maybe he has granted a pardon.' They tremble and cry, waiting for the moment when they will be led to the place of execution. Say in your mind, too: 'My sins have condemned me. How shall I face the righteous Judge? How will I defend myself?' Grieve and weep over your sins, so as to be saved."

confederate catholic · « **Reply #12 on:** October 19, 2015, 04:05:09 PM »

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It is said of a pious abbess, living in our times, that she was once returned to her convent by the authorities, after having been missing for some days. She had been found sitting in the gutters of the worst parts of the city, seemingly a derelict, suffering the abuse of passers-by. Her spiritual daughters, astonished by these circuмstances, hastened to ask her for an explanation. She told them: "You, my children, have me to teach you obedience. But I have no one."

confederate catholic · « **Reply #13 on:** October 19, 2015, 04:07:36 PM »

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"Reflect each day on those things in which you have erred. And if you call on God with contrition concerning these faults, He will surely forgive you of them. Question yourself always, as long as you live, to discover where you fall short; surely at the time of your death, then, you will not suffer from the horrible agony of fear because of your faults. Be always ready to encounter God, and thereby you will be ready to carry out His will. Every single day examine carefully whichever of your passions you have been able to conquer-never trusting in yourself, supposing that somehow with your own power you accomplished something; for God is merciful and He gave you the power to be victorious.

"When, each day, you rise from your bed, remember that you will give an accounting to God for your every deed, for your every word, as well as for your every thought. Thus, you will not sin before God; rather, fear of Him will dwell with you" (Abba Isaias).

we all fall we all can repent and keep going always onward and upward!

Pilar · « **Reply #14 on:** October 19, 2015, 05:04:02 PM »

Quote from: Jaynek

Quote from: confederate catholic
Quote
The sheer POWER of formation on an individual. One's family upbringing, their "culture", forms who we are for life. Our environment, our teachers, teach us what questions to ask, and the best way to look at the world. One's friends, parents, teachers, peers, the school one attends, etc. make near-indelible marks on one's character.

this seems you are leaving no place for Grace. how does a Bartolo Longo fit in this scenario, he was a satanist before his conversion, do we all dispair because of not having a perfect formation? did this thing ever exist? when in church history did we have the perfect society?

we are supposed to be progressing in our faith daily. we should be different today than yesterday. we should be transforming through the sacraments.

Of course, Grace is more important for salvation, but it is much harder to live a good Catholic life without a good formation. There is a constant struggle against bad habits and poor understanding. It is like trying to run a race while carrying a heavy weight.

We are all influenced by Liberalism and Modernism no matter what. I have many children who were born into Tradition (SSPX) and they still struggle like we all do. We are surrounded by perhaps the greatest collection of filth that ever was and in Europe it is even worse. There are perhaps hundreds of children all the way up to young adults, born into SSPX tradition in my town. Many show fruits of holiness, some not, but may come back in the end. They are exposed to the same temptations that all children now are. One of our priests told us that is why he expects a chastisement soon, because children can no longer be expected to reach adulthood without losing their innocence, for the first time in Christendom.

To JayneK, I would say this; many of the things we do, the sins and poor choices we have made out of poor formation and ignorance, once we have converted or recovered ourselves, can and will be used for our sanctification. Just as Our Lord's ugly wounds now shine and glow with the beauty of rare Jєωels, so will those things we have repented of. Our Lord said, "I make all things new" and He also said "My yoke is sweet and My burden light." While sometimes our past tempts us to despair and be sluggish, if we have truly repented, the memory of those things we are now ashamed of will prevent that most pernicious poison, pride, and once overcome will actually be a source of glory in Heaven.

Finally, I know a person very well (not myself) who converted as an adult and learned more about the Faith in a few years than most of the cradle Catholics know after a lifetime. It is all about desire. Often it has been said that when the Jєωs convert, they will be the best Catholics. Many of our greatest saints had Jєωιѕн ancestry. They are people of great desire, and once it is focused on God...watch out. :wink: