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Author Topic: A fair question.  (Read 14609 times)

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Offline MaterDominici

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A fair question.
« Reply #75 on: May 17, 2014, 04:08:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    One of the "problems" is that the SSPX Resistance is very loosely defined.  This is a board run by Americans, and catering to mainly American trads (though there are some non-USA members, they definitely make up the minority).  As such, the Resistance is inevitably identified with Fr. Pfeiffer for good or ill.  By now it should be apparent that there is a reason that Fr. Pfeiffer and Bishop Williamson are not working together, that neither are working particularly close to the French priests and that the Latin American priests (Fr. Meramo et al.) aren't even really considered a part of it.

    All were kicked out or left the SSPX for the same reason, more or less-- but various considerations have made it such that some opinions acceptable in some "groups" are anathema in others.  Consider Fr. Pinaud, who heroically underwent the kangaroo court of Bishop Fellay after having been subjected to ʝʊdɛօ-Menzingen black ops to dishonestly acquire information from his personal computer.  Fr. Pinaud is "non una cuм" and goes all the way to Quebec to minister to the faithful out there who've had it with the SSPX, and what happens?  Fr Pfeiffer gets sent up there to straighten out the "non una cuм" party and tell them that unless they're "united" to Francis the heretic they're going to Hell.  My heart breaks for everything Fr. Pinaud has been through.  Does Fr. Pfeiffer think he's going to Hell?  That's a rhetorical question simply meant to illustrate the difficulties of the present situation in having some hundred religious and some thousands of faithful all part of "the Resistance" who all differ on certain issues, and some of those differences are considered unacceptable by some.

    To have a pro Resistance board is not as clear cut as it may appear.  So the effort is on Resisting the lowest common denominator, the Novus Ordo and in this particular day and age, that also requires resisting +Fellay who should know better than to covertly organize and re-mold the SSPX to be acceptable to enter into it's ranks.  But where people go once they've said no to the N.O. and +Fellay is another story, one which seems to be writing itself as we speak.

    --------------

    There are some posters who have such intense blinders that they cannot see that their problem is actually WITH the Resistance, and the fact that it is not unified (which I don't say is good or bad, but it is what it is) under the self-congratulatory R&R principles they think it should be.  They see Fr. Pfeiffer hum and haw about the great evils of our time (Novus Ordo and sedevacantism) and when they see "resistors" who do not share this position, they're running afoul "The Resistance."  But in truth, Fr. Pfeiffer is one of many, many priests who are resisting +Fellay and he doesn't have a monopoly on it.  He's just the loudest.  

    More properly called, such posters are really just followers of certain priests.



    Love it or hate it, I think it's a good summary. Are you quoting yourself?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    A fair question.
    « Reply #76 on: May 17, 2014, 04:12:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: Matthew
    I've already stated my position on the matter several times.

    I understand now why you rejected CathInfo months ago, and why you're not happy with it today: You want a hard-core R&R forum with equal fervor in the "recognize" and "resist" categories.

    As my wife pointed out, R&R and Resistance are not the same thing.

    CathInfo is a Resistance forum, not an R&R safe haven. There's a difference.

    If R&R were more certain, maybe it would have more followers and/or its own forum :)


    Speaking of, the turn this thread has taken in the last few pages compels me to do a little C&P from somewhere else.

    --------

    One of the "problems" is that the SSPX Resistance is very loosely defined.  This is a board run by Americans, and catering to mainly American trads (though there are some non-USA members, they definitely make up the minority).  As such, the Resistance is inevitably identified with Fr. Pfeiffer for good or ill.  By now it should be apparent that there is a reason that Fr. Pfeiffer and Bishop Williamson are not working together, that neither are working particularly close to the French priests and that the Latin American priests (Fr. Meramo et al.) aren't even really considered a part of it.

    All were kicked out or left the SSPX for the same reason, more or less-- but various considerations have made it such that some opinions acceptable in some "groups" are anathema in others.  Consider Fr. Pinaud, who heroically underwent the kangaroo court of Bishop Fellay after having been subjected to ʝʊdɛօ-Menzingen black ops to dishonestly acquire information from his personal computer.  Fr. Pinaud is "non una cuм" and goes all the way to Quebec to minister to the faithful out there who've had it with the SSPX, and what happens?  Fr Pfeiffer gets sent up there to straighten out the "non una cuм" party and tell them that unless they're "united" to Francis the heretic they're going to Hell.  My heart breaks for everything Fr. Pinaud has been through.  Does Fr. Pfeiffer think he's going to Hell?  That's a rhetorical question simply meant to illustrate the difficulties of the present situation in having some hundred religious and some thousands of faithful all part of "the Resistance" who all differ on certain issues, and some of those differences are considered unacceptable by some.

    To have a pro Resistance board is not as clear cut as it may appear.  So the effort is on Resisting the lowest common denominator, the Novus Ordo and in this particular day and age, that also requires resisting +Fellay who should know better than to covertly organize and re-mold the SSPX to be acceptable to enter into it's ranks.  But where people go once they've said no to the N.O. and +Fellay is another story, one which seems to be writing itself as we speak.

    --------------

    There are some posters who have such intense blinders that they cannot see that their problem is actually WITH the Resistance, and the fact that it is not unified (which I don't say is good or bad, but it is what it is) under the self-congratulatory R&R principles they think it should be.  They see Fr. Pfeiffer hum and haw about the great evils of our time (Novus Ordo and sedevacantism) and when they see "resistors" who do not share this position, they're running afoul "The Resistance."  But in truth, Fr. Pfeiffer is one of many, many priests who are resisting +Fellay and he doesn't have a monopoly on it.  He's just the loudest.  

    More properly called, such posters are really just followers of certain priests.



    I would say this post is a good summation of the ill effects of the "loose association" strategy.

    But I would not say these problems stem from the R&R position, since on the one hand, they are equally manifested in the infighting within the sedevacantist orb, and on the other hand, unity was maintained within the SSPX for 40 years, until the leadership excessively fixated on one "R" causing a backlash reaction to fixate on the other "R."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Matthew

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    A fair question.
    « Reply #77 on: May 17, 2014, 06:38:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Unbrandable
    Quote from: Machabees
    Observation.

    Why is it that non-R&R's are fighting this subject to have an unmolested R&R Resistance sub-forum here on the "Headquarters of the Resistance", and well as happening elsewhere, and yet on this particular site, it is relatively quiet from the R&R side?

    Has this site really been a turn-off to the R&Rs already?



    Yes.



    Sez the CathInfo member with 87 posts.

    I'll give you a clue: CathInfo hasn't changed in 8 years. It was started as a safe haven for serious Catholics all over the world -- safe from the ban hammer of liberals (Fisheaters) anti-Sedevacantism (again, Fisheaters) and offering freedom to discuss anything Catholics find important.

    All Trad Catholics were/are welcome, but in particular those that reject The World, and are a bit more serious about putting the Faith into daily life.

    And that is exactly what CathInfo is today. What exactly is the problem?

    If you do have a legitimate problem with CI, that problem was here BEFORE you showed up, joined, and posted 87 times.
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    Offline JPaul

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    A fair question.
    « Reply #78 on: May 17, 2014, 07:36:35 PM »
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  • As was obvious from the beginning of this thread and its predecessor, that it was indeed designed to force confrontation and disrupt the forum in favor of the Conciliar/Menzingen/resistance R&R doctrine.
    The first purpose being accomplished while the second remains unfulfilled thanks to Matthew holding to his principles.
    But, this was a clear repeat of what happened on the other forum where the same strategy was employed.

    As the R&Rist foundations are weakening their fervor in defending them is increasing.
    This is precisely the pattern which was set in 2012 by Menzingen and carried out by its operatives. The resistance so called has inherited this mode of action and is acting according to the same script.  
    You must not question this or you become the target.

    And so, we have so much conflict and distraction among the Catholic brethren, and......meanwhile....back in Rome............

    Offline MaterDominici

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    A fair question.
    « Reply #79 on: May 17, 2014, 08:26:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Unbrandable
    Quote from: Machabees
    Observation.

    Why is it that non-R&R's are fighting this subject to have an unmolested R&R Resistance sub-forum here on the "Headquarters of the Resistance", and well as happening elsewhere, and yet on this particular site, it is relatively quiet from the R&R side?

    Has this site really been a turn-off to the R&Rs already?



    Yes.



    If your only interest is in chatting with people who think exactly as you do, I'd imagine this site has been a turn-off for over 5 years going now.

    The 87 posts guy makes more sense to me than the ones who've racked up hundreds or thousands of posts here and then suddenly wake up one day and have a problem with the way things have always been.


    Offline donkath

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    A fair question.
    « Reply #80 on: May 17, 2014, 08:38:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pete Vere
    Quote from: donkath
    Bishop Williamson on Sedevacantism

    Number CCCLVII (357)
            
    17th May 2014
    CHURCH’S INFALLIBILITY -- III

    The crazy words and deeds of Pope Francis are presently driving many believing Catholics towards sedevacantism, which is dangerous. The belief that the Conciliar Popes have not been and are not Popes may begin as an opinion, but all too often one observes that the opinion turns into a dogma and then into a mental steel trap. I think the minds of many sedevacantists shut down because the unprecedented crisis of Vatican II has caused their Catholic minds and hearts an agony which found in sedevacantism a simple solution, and they have no wish to re-open the agony by re-opening the question. So they positively crusade for others to share their simple solution, and in so doing many of them – not all -- end up displaying an arrogance and a bitterness which are no signs or fruits of a true Catholic.

    Now these “Comments” have abstained from proclaiming with certainty that the Conciliar Popes have been true Popes, but at the same time they have argued that the usual sedevacantist arguments are neither conclusive nor binding upon Catholics, as some sedevacantists would have us believe. Let us return to one of their most important arguments, which is from Papal infallibility: Popes are infallible. But liberals are fallible, and Conciliar Popes are liberal. Therefore they are not Popes.

    To this one may object that a Pope is certainly infallible only when he engages the four conditions of the Church’s Extraordinary Magisterium by teaching 1 as Pope, 2 on Faith or morals, 3 definitively, 4 so as to bind all Catholics. Whereupon sedevacantists and liberals alike reply that it is Church teaching that the Ordinary Universal Magisterium is also infallible, so – and here is the weak point in their argument – whenever the Pope teaches solemnly even outside of his Extraordinary Magisterium, he must also be infallible. Now their liberal Conciliar teaching is solemn. Therefore we must become either liberals or sedevacantists, depending of course on who is wielding the same argument.

    But the hallmark of teaching which belongs to the Church’s Ordinary Universal Magisterium is not the solemnity with which the Pope teaches outside of the Extraordinary Magisterium, but whether what he is teaching corresponds, or not, to what Our Lord, his Apostles and virtually all their successors, the bishops of the Universal Church, have taught in all times and in all places, in other words whether it corresponds to Tradition. Now Conciliar teaching (e.g. religious liberty and ecuмenism) is in rupture with Tradition. Therefore Catholics today are not in fact bound to become liberals or sedevacantists.

    However, both liberals and sedevacantists cling to their misunderstanding of Papal infallibility for reasons that are not without interest, but that is another story. In any case they do not give up easily, so they come back with another objection which deserves to be answered. Both of them will say that to argue that Tradition is the hallmark of the Ordinary Magisterium is to set up a vicious circle. For if the Church’s teaching authority, or Magisterium, exists to tell what is Church doctrine, as it does, then how can the Traditional doctrine at the same time tell what is the Magisterium ? Either the teacher authorises what is taught, or what is taught authorises the teacher, but they cannot both at the same time authorise each other. So to argue that Tradition which is taught authorises the Ordinary Magisterium which is teaching, is wrong, and so the Pope is infallible not only in his Extraordinary teaching, and so we must become either liberals or sedevacantists , they conclude.

    Why there is no vicious circle must wait until next week. It is as interesting as why both sedevacantists and liberals fall into the same error on infallibility.

    Kyrie eleison.

    If four conditions are not all in play. The Popes can err in what they teach or say.


    A question for His Excellency, that would greatly assist me in interpreting the meaning of his words above: Does he accept the validity of Pope Francis's canonizations of Popes John XXIII and John Paul II? Yes or no?



    Number CCCLI (351)
    5th April 2014

    CANONISATIONS UNREAL

    The “canonisation”of two Conciliar Popes, John XXIII and John-Paul II, is scheduled for the last Sunday of this month, and many believing Catholics are scared stiff. They know that the Conciliar Popes have been (objective) destroyers of the Church. They know that the Church holds canonisations to be infallible. Are they going to be forced to believe that John XXIII and John-Paul II are Saints ? It boggles the mind. But it need not do so.

    In August of last year these “Comments” stated the fact that Newchurch “canonisations” are such a different reality from pre-Conciliar canonisations that no Catholic need believe that the post-conciliar canonisations are infallible. I was not wrong, but while I stated the fact that this is so, I did not give the reason why, which is a superior way of knowing something. On the contrary in a retreat conference, perhaps of 1989, Archbishop Lefebvre gave the deep-down reason why. This reason – modernist mind-rot -- is crucial to understand correctly the whole Conciliar Revolution.

    The Archbishop said that like a mass of modern men, the Conciliar Popes do not believe in any truth being stable. For instance John-Paul II’s formation was based on truth evolving, moving with the times, progressing with the advance of science, etc.. Truth never being fixed is the reason why in 1988 John-Paul II condemned the SSPX’s Episcopal Consecrations, because they sprang from a fixed and not living or moving idea of Catholic Tradition. For indeed Catholics hold, for example, every word in the Credo to be unchangeable, because the words have been hammered out over the ages to express as perfectly as possible the unchanging truths of the Faith, and these words have been infallibly defined by the Church’s Popes and Councils.

    True canonisations are another example: (1) the Pope pronounces as Pope, (2) such and such a person to be a model of faith and morals, (3) once and for all (nobody used to get uncanonised), (4) for all the Church to accept as such a model. As such, canonisations used to fulfil the four conditions of infallible Church teaching, and they were held to be infallible. But this Catholic idea of an unchangeable truth is inconceivable for fluid modern minds like those of the Conciliar Popes. For them, truth is life, a life developing, evolving, growing towards perfection. How then can a Conciliar Pope perform, let alone impose, an infallible canonisation ?

    The Archbishop imagines how a Conciliar Pope might react to the idea of his having done any such thing: “Oh no ! If ever in the future it turns out that the person I canonised did not have all the qualities required, well, some successor of mine may well declare that I made a declaration on that person’s virtue but not a once and for all definition of their sanctity.” Meanwhile the “canonising” Pope’s “declaration” has made the President of the local Republic and the local Christians happy, and he has given them all an excuse to have a party to celebrate.

    If one thinks about it, this explanation of the Archbishop applies to the Newchurch across the board. What we have in Vatican II is the demanding beauty of God’s unchangeable Truth, which leads to Heaven, being replaced by the undemanding ugliness of man’s fluid fantasy, which may lead to Hell but enables man, as he thinks, to take the place of God. The key step in this process is the unhooking of the mind from reality. When the process is applied today to the Church as modernism, the results are so totally unlike what went before that the new realities absolutely call for new names: Newchurch, Newcanonisations, Newsaints, etc.. After all, are not the Conciliarists proud of making everything new ?

    Kyrie eleison.

    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline donkath

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    A fair question.
    « Reply #81 on: May 17, 2014, 09:01:43 PM »
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  • Matthew said:

    "I agree with Nishant, Cantarella, etc. about the dangers of Sedevacantism, but it's also true that ABL considered the idea a possibility. Moreover, I'm not 100% cock-sure that I'm correct that Sedevacantism is wrong, and I'm willing to admit that."
    __________________________________

    A little catechism on sedevacantism

    What is sedevacantism?

    Sedevacantism is the theory of those who think that the most recent popes, the popes of the Second Vatican Council, have not really been popes. Consequently, the See of Peter is not occupied. This is expressed in Latin by the formula sede vacante.

    Where does this theory come from?

    This theory has been conceived in reaction to the very grave crisis which the Church has been undergoing since the Council, a crisis that Archbishop Lefebvre justly called "the third world war." The main cause of the crisis has been the dereliction of the Roman Pontiffs, who teach or allow to be propagated serious errors on the subjects of ecuмenism, religious liberty, collegiality, etc.

    The sedevacantists think that real popes could not be responsible for such a crisis, and consequently they consider them not to be "real" popes.

    Do the sedevacantists agree amongst themselves?

    No, far from it. There are many different positions. Some think that, since the Chair of Peter is vacant, someone should occupy it, and so they have elected a "pope." Such is the case of the sect of Palmar in Spain, for example. Among those who do not go so far, there are different schools. Some think that the current pope is an anti-pope, others that he is only partly pope, a pope materialiter but not formaliter.

    Some sedevacantists consider their position as a "likely opinion," and consent to receive the sacraments from non-sedevacantist priests, while others, called "ultra" by the Fr. Coache,[1] make it a matter of faith, and refuse to assist at Masses where the priest prays for the pope. But what is common to all the sedevacantists is that they think that the pope should not be prayed for in public.

    What is meant by being pope materialiter?

    The main difficulty of sedevacantism is to explain how the Church can continue to exist in a visible manner (for she has received from the Lord the promise that she will endure until the end of the world) while being deprived of her head. The partisans of the so-called "Cassiciacuм Thesis"[2] have come up with a very subtle solution: the current pope was validly designated as pope, but he did not receive the papal authority because there was an interior obstacle (heresy). So, according to the theory, he is able to act in some ways for the good of the Church, such as, for instance, appointing cardinals (who are cardinals materialiter), but he is not really pope.

    What do you think of this solution?

    For one thing, this solution is not based on Tradition. Theologians (Cajetan, St. Robert Bellarmine, John of St. Thomas, etc.) who have examined the possibility of a heretical pope, but no one prior to the Council every devised such a theory. Also, it does not resolve the main difficulty of sedevacantism, namely, how the Church can continue to be visible, for, if the pope, the cardinals, the bishops, etc., are deprived of their "form," then no visible Church hierarchy is left. Moreover, this theory has some serious philosophical defects because it supposes that a head can be head materialiter, that is, without authority.

    What arguments do the sedevacantists adduce to prove their theories?

    They use a theological argument and a canonical one. The theological argument consists of positing that a heretic cannot be head of the Church, but John Paul II is a heretic, therefore...

    The legal argument consists of pointing out that the laws of the Church invalidate the election of a heretic; but Cardinal Wojtyla was a heretic at the time of his election, therefore...

    But isn’t it true that a pope who becomes a heretic loses the pontificate?

    St. Robert Bellarmine says that a pope who would formally and manifestly become a heretic would lose the pontificate. For that to apply to John Paul II, he would have to be a formal heretic, deliberately refusing the Church’s magisterium; and this formal heresy would have to be open and manifest. But if John Paul II often enough makes heretical affirmations or statements that lead to heresy, it cannot easily be shown that he is aware of rejecting any dogma of the Church. And as long as there is no sure proof, then it is more prudent to refrain from judging. This was Archbishop Lefebvre’s line of conduct.

    If a Catholic were convinced that John Paul II is a formal, manifest heretic, should he then conclude that he is no longer pope?

    No, he should not, for according to the "common" opinion (Suarez), or even the "more common" opinion (Billuart), theologians think that even an heretical pope can continue to exercise the papacy. For him to lose his jurisdiction, the Catholic bishops (the only judges in matters of faith besides the pope, by Divine will) would have to make a declaration denouncing the pope’s heresy.

    According to the more common opinion, the Christ, by a particular providence, for the common good and the tranquility of the Church, continues to give jurisdiction to an even manifestly heretical pontiff until such time as he should be declared a manifest heretic by the Church.[3]

    Now, in so serious a matter, it is not prudent to go against the common opinion.

    But how can a heretic, who is no longer a member of the Church, be its leader or head?

    The Dominican Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, basing his reasoning on Billuart, explains in his treatise De Verbo Incarnato (p. 232) that an heretical pope, while no longer a member of the Church, can still be her head. For, what is impossible in the case of a physical head is possible (albeit abnormal) for a secondary moral head.

    The reason is that, whereas a physical head cannot influence the members without receiving the vital influx of the soul, a moral head, as is the Roman Pontiff, can exercise jurisdiction over the Church even if he does not receive from the soul of the Church any influx of interior faith or charity.

    In short, the pope is constituted a member of the Church by his personal faith, which he can lose, but he is head of the visible Church by the jurisdiction and authority which he received, and these can co-exist with his own heresy.

    How does their canonical argument fare?

    The sedevacantists base their position on the apostolic constitution cuм ex Apostolatus of Pope Paul IV (1555-1559). But some good studies have shown that this constitution lost its legal force when the 1917 Code of Canon Law was promulgated. See, for example, the article of Fr. Albert, O.P., in Sel de la terre, Summer 2000, pp.67-78. What remains in effect from this constitution is its dogmatic teaching. And, consequently, it cannot be made to say more than the theological argument already examined.

    Don’t the sedevacantists claim to find a confirmation of their theory in the errors of Vatican Council II and the harmful liturgical and canonical laws of the Conciliar Church?

    Indeed, the sedevacantists think, in general, that the teaching of the Council should have been covered by the infallibility of the ordinary and universal magisterium, and consequently should not contain any errors. But, since there are errors, for example, on religious liberty, they conclude that Paul VI had ceased to be pope at that moment.

    Really, if one accepted this argument, then it would be necessary to say that the whole Catholic Church disappeared then, too, and that "the gates of hell had prevailed" against her. For the teaching of the ordinary, universal magisterium is that of the bishops, of the whole Church teaching.

    It is simpler to think that the teaching of the Council and of the Conciliar Church is not covered by the infallibility of the ordinary, universal magisterium for the reasons explained in the article of Fr. Pierre-Marie, O.P., on the authority of the Council that appeared in Sel de la terre, "L’autorite du Concile," pp.32-63.

    One of the arguments set forth there consists in showing that the Council does not present its teaching as "necessary for salvation" (which is logical, since those who profess this believe that it is possible to be saved without the Catholic Faith). Since this teaching is not authoritatively imposed, it is not covered by the guarantee of infallibility. The same thing can be said about the liturgical laws (the New Mass) and the canonical laws (the 1983 Code of Canon Law) promulgated by the most recent popes: they are not covered by infallibility, although normally they would be.

    Aren’t the sedevacantists right, though, in refusing to name the pope at Mass in order to show that they are not in communion with ("una cuм") a heretic (at least materially) and his heresies?

    The expression "una cuм" in the Canon of the Mass does not mean that one affirms that he is "in communion" with the erroneous ideas of the pope, but rather that one wants to pray for the Church "and for" the pope, her visible head.

    In order to be sure of this interpretation, in addition to reading the erudite studies that have been made on this point, it is enough to read the rubric of the missal for the occasion of a bishop celebrating Mass. In this case, the bishop must pray for the Church "una cuм ...me indigno famulo tuo," which does not mean that he prays "in communion with...myself, your unworthy servant" (which does not make sense!), but that he prays "and for ...myself, your unworthy servant."

    But doesn’t St. Thomas Aquinas say that in the Canon one should not pray for heretics?

    St. Thomas Aquinas does not say that one should not pray for heretics (Summa Theologica, III, Q. 79, A. 7, ad 2), but merely observes that, in the prayers of the Canon of the Mass, one prays for those whose faith and devotion are known to the Lord (quorum tibi fides cognita est et nota devotio). For, he says, so that this sacrifice obtain its effect (effectum habet) those for whom one prays must be "united to the passion of Christ by faith and charity." He does not say that praying for heretics is forbidden. He only means that this prayer will not have the same efficacy as one for a Catholic, and is not provided for in the Canon.

    All that can be concluded from this affirmation of St. Thomas is that, if the pope is a heretic (which remains to be proven), then the prayer for him will not have the foreseen effect, "non habet effectum."

    In conclusion, what should we think of sedevacantism?

    Sedevacantism is a theory that has not been proven speculatively, and that it is imprudent to hold practically (an imprudence that can have very serious consequences). That is why Archbishop Lefebvre never adopted this position, and even forbade the priests of the Society of St. Pius X to profess it. We should have confidence in his prudence and theological sense.

    Fr. Munoz[4] points out that no saint in the Church’s history was ever a sedevacantist, while several openly and forcefully resisted a pope’s errors. Let us do likewise. (Translated from Sel de la terre, Spring 2001.)
    Footnotes
    1 Fr. Coache (1920-1994), Doctor of Canon Law, was the pastor of the parish of Montjavoult until 1973. He was one of the pioneers of the Catholic resistance against the Conciliar revolution. His parish bulletin evolved into The Combat for the Faith, which was widely distributed, and which he edited until his death. He organized with Msgr. Ducaud-Bourget the epic taking of St. Nicholas du Chardonnet in Paris, France, in February 1977.

    2 "Cassiciacuм" is the name of the place to which St. Augustine withdrew with some friends after his baptism, and where he studied and deepened his faith. In the late 1970’s, Fr. Guerard des Lauriers, O.P., together with a group of like-minded priests, founded a review called Les Cahiers de Cassiciacuм to defend the sedevacantist position. The "Cassiciacuм Thesis" is the name given to the theory that the pope is pope materialiter but not formaliter.
       3 Billuart, De Fide, Diss. V, A. III, No. 3, obj. 2.

    4 Of the diocese of Barcelona, Spain. He was ordained in 1952, and was vicar of a parish in Barcelona. With women active in the Catholic Action movement, he founded a contemplative religious community called the Oasis, near Barcelona. The special mission of this community is to pray for priests. Becoming acquainted with Archbishop Lefebvre in the early 1970’s, he chose to remain faithful to the traditional Mass. Archbishop Lefebvre had a deep affection for the community of the Oasis, whose apostolate he judged to be very necessary for the Church today, and would go there to visit. In October 2000, Fr. Munoz founded a second Oasis in the south of France.

    Source

     
     
     
     
     



    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline Raphaela

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    A fair question.
    « Reply #82 on: May 18, 2014, 04:29:22 AM »
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  • Thank you for posting this, donkath - from the Dominicans of Avrillé.


    Offline pbax

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    A fair question.
    « Reply #83 on: May 18, 2014, 04:47:11 AM »
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  • Love your post Donkath, thankyou  :applause:.

    In the old Law Our Lord did not deny the Priests, all the way up to Caiphas, the respect due to their position, despite calling them a brood of vipers. History is repeating itself

    Our Lady prophesied that Russia would eventually be converted when the Holy Father consecrates Russia to her Immaculate Heart. Please explain how this prophecy will come true if we do not have a pope?!

    Offline TKGS

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    A fair question.
    « Reply #84 on: May 18, 2014, 06:26:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: pbax
    In the old Law Our Lord did not deny the Priests, all the way up to Caiphas, the respect due to their position, despite calling them a brood of vipers. History is repeating itself

    Our Lady prophesied that Russia would eventually be converted when the Holy Father consecrates Russia to her Immaculate Heart. Please explain how this prophecy will come true if we do not have a pope?!


    In the first place, we are mixing oranges with apples.  The two are simply not the same.  It matters not what Christ did while on earth concerning the Jєωιѕн priests who were priests due to their birth lineage because Christ gave us the Catholic priesthood who are priests according to a whole new order.  We have the Church which has definitively declared that one must hold the Catholic Faith in order to be a priest of the Catholic Church and one's birth lineage does not matter.

    As for the prophesy of Our Lady, obviously, it will not happen while there is no pope so it must be that one day there will be a pope.  It's just not today.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    A fair question.
    « Reply #85 on: May 18, 2014, 06:59:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raphaela
    Thank you for posting this, donkath - from the Dominicans of Avrillé.


    Raphaela-

    Are you a Dominican from Avrille?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline JPaul

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    A fair question.
    « Reply #86 on: May 18, 2014, 10:11:55 AM »
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  • So we have examples of good willed R&R folks posting and they have suffered no molestation.  In most cases it is the attitudes which one brings to the discussion which determine the tone and tenor of the same.


    Offline pbax

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    A fair question.
    « Reply #87 on: May 19, 2014, 06:21:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: pbax
    In the old Law Our Lord did not deny the Priests, all the way up to Caiphas, the respect due to their position, despite calling them a brood of vipers. History is repeating itself

    Our Lady prophesied that Russia would eventually be converted when the Holy Father consecrates Russia to her Immaculate Heart. Please explain how this prophecy will come true if we do not have a pope?!


    In the first place, we are mixing oranges with apples.  The two are simply not the same.  It matters not what Christ did while on earth concerning the Jєωιѕн priests who were priests due to their birth lineage because Christ gave us the Catholic priesthood who are priests according to a whole new order.  We have the Church which has definitively declared that one must hold the Catholic Faith in order to be a priest of the Catholic Church and one's birth lineage does not matter.

    As for the prophesy of Our Lady, obviously, it will not happen while there is no pope so it must be that one day there will be a pope.  It's just not today.



    Caiaphas betrayed God and his people to appease the Romans.
    The resent Popes are betraying God and his people to appease ‘a socialist world’

    I always thought  the Bible as well as tradition told of the way Our Lord acted in order to give us an example to follow.

    Are you telling me that you can give me a more perfect example than Our Lord. Or is it that His example was only for that time, and times have changed, in which case you have a lot more in common with the thinking of current Popes you do not believe are Popes

    Offline MyrnaM

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    A fair question.
    « Reply #88 on: May 19, 2014, 08:01:54 AM »
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  • pbax ...but then we have this:  Galatians 1; verse 8 “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel to you other than that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema!”  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Pete Vere

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    A fair question.
    « Reply #89 on: May 19, 2014, 04:46:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Pete Vere
    Quote from: J.Paul
    Another point, the dogmatic anti-sedes are in fact R&R zealots. They are anti- sede by necessity. The sedes assertions threaten the R&R position by exposing its inconsistencies.


    On this last point we are both agreed. Which is why I see the Resistance being absorbed into the R&R.


    I think you meant SV here, right?


    Thanks for the correction. Yes, I see the Resistance being absorbed into sedevacantism.