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Author Topic: A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013  (Read 22658 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
« Reply #120 on: January 28, 2014, 08:19:30 AM »
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    (page 15 cont'd)

    We notice you [Fr. Themann,] entirely omit mentioning that Bishop Fellay’s 4-15-12 Doctrinal Preamble (AFD) accepts the new conciliar teaching regarding the authority and relationship of the pope and the bishops.  Below are his words.  He accepts:

         the doctrine regarding the Roman Pontiff and the College of
         bishops,
    Page 16

         with its head, the Pope, as taught … by the Lumen Gentium
         dogmatic constitution of the Second Vatican Council, chapter 3
         (De constitutione hierarchica Ecclesiæ et in specie de episcopatu),
         explained and interpreted by the Nota explicativa prævia to this
         very chapter. (19)

    Bishop Fellay accepts many errors here, including but not limited to:  1) accepting the conciliar error of authority as a service;  2) accepting the conciliar error that apostolic succession means passing on the mission (which error the conciliar church uses to “find” apostolic succession in  the Protestant sects);  and  3) the promotion of the Vatican II novelty that a bishop can only govern his diocese as a member of the college of bishops (the error of collegiality).  Lumen Gentium Annotated, pp.172-218.

    These and a great many other errors, are not corrected by the nota explicativa praevia.

    As Fr. Pierre Marie, prior of the Dominicans of Avrille, stated recently about this same chapter of Lumen Gentium:

         Collegiality is found in Lumen Gentium no 22 (even after
         being ‘corrected’ by the Nota praevia), and is contrary to the
         teaching of Vatican I (Pastor aeternus) on the supreme power
         of the pope. (20)

    These errors which you ignored during your conference and which Bishop Fellay accepted, are shown in greater detail to be the opposite of Catholic truth, in Lumen Gentium Annotated, pp.172-218.

    Lastly on this topic, Pope John Paul II correctly singled out Vatican II’s teaching on the college of bishops (a teaching accepted by Bishop Fellay in the 4-15-12 Doctrinal Preamble [the AFD]), as one of the council’s novelties.  Sacrae Disciplinae Leges, January 25, 1983.  Thus, Pope John Paul II is declaring novel, what Bishop Fellay is accepting.


    Bishop Fellay’s Acceptance Of The New Code Of Canon Law

    Bishop Fellay’s 4-15-12 Doctrinal Preamble also promises to “respect … the Code of Canon Law promulgated by Pope John Paul II (1983).”  Thus, Bishop Fellay accepts (i.e., respects) the new code of canon law and indicates that it is good (for if it were not good, then it would not be a law at all). (21)

    This is the same code of canon law which was such a grievous problem for the “old” SSPX. (22)  Bishop Fellay is accepting this new code of which Pope John Paul II said:  “what constitutes the substantial ‘novelty’ of the Second Vatican Council … constitutes likewise the ‘novelty’ of the new Code [of canon law].”  Sacrae Disciplinae Leges, January 25, 1983. So when Bishop Fellay pledges to respect the new code of canon law without any qualification and indicates that it is good without any qualification (i.e., otherwise it could not be the law) (23), Bishop Fellay is accepting the conciliar church’s practical implementation of Vatican II’s errors.  Is this how you and Bishop Fellay fulfill your “duty to fight?”  You admit that duty here:  48:40.

    Bishop Fellay’s Purported “Test” of Rome, in the 6-8-12 DICI Interview

    Bishop Fellay made many scandalous and liberal statements in his 6-8-12 DICI interview.

    _______________________________________
    19.    4-15-12 Doctrinal Preamble (AFD), found at:  http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Newvery-
    accurate-reliable-translation-of-Fellays-Doctrinal-Statement

    20.    March 2013 edition of Catholic Family News, p.18 (parenthetical comments in the original).

    21.    Archbishop Lefebvre laid down the principle:  “In the Church, law and jurisdiction are at the service of the Faith, the primary reason for the Church.  There is no law, no jurisdiction which can impose on us a lessening of our Faith.”  Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre, vol. 1, p.151, quoting the 9-3-75 Letter to friends and benefactors #9.  St. Thomas gives this same principle in the context of what is true about all law, including all Church law.  Summa, Ia IIae, Q. 90.

    22.    See, e.g., They Have Uncrowned Him, by Archbishop Lefebvre, 1988, Angelus Press, pp. 148-149.

    23.    See footnote #21.




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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #121 on: January 28, 2014, 08:28:32 AM »
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  • I think writing a letter would be better.   And one of charity correcting any errors.

    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #122 on: January 28, 2014, 08:31:37 AM »
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  • .

    Almost halfway through TheRecusant #12!


    Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey

    I think writing a letter would be better.   And one of charity correcting any errors.



    You think that writing a letter would be better than writing a letter?  

    You think a letter that charitably corrects any errors would be better than a letter that charitably corrects errors like this Letter does?  

    Do you think that such a letter as you describe would ever be answered?  
    Have you ever heard of one that was answered?  

    Would you like a list of a lot of the charitable letters that have been written in the past 60 years to the power brokers in Rome and elsewhere which have been categorically IGNORED, in fact, what usually happens is the people about whom the letters accuse of abusing their power are normally given MORE POWER to abuse with, after such letters are sent in.


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #123 on: February 01, 2014, 09:23:59 AM »
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    (cont'd from p.16):

    Bishop Fellay’s Purported “Test” of Rome, in the 6-8-12 DICI Interview

    Bishop Fellay made many scandalous and liberal statements in his 6-8-12 DICI interview.
    Page 17

    You try to distract from this liberalism [Fr. Themann,] by making it sound as if this interview is strong.  This is what you say:

         Not satisfied with the assurances that he can attack, continue
         to attack, … he makes a test.  In early June [2012], Bishop
         Fellay grants an interview with DICI, in which he attacks Vatican
         II as erroneous. … He also criticizes the new mass. 32:20.

    In many places, Bishop Fellay makes these same false assertions you do, to justify this horrific 6-8-12 interview.  For example, in his December 28, 2012 conference in Canada, Bishop Fellay says:

         I made a test. I published an interview in DICI. It was the
         beginning of June.  And there, I speak about the errors of
         Vatican II. And I speak about – let’s say the – how bad the
         new mass is.

    There are two problems with Bishop Fellay’s statement above and with your repetition of his falsehoods:

    Bishop Fellay says above, that he speaks about “how bad the new mass is.”  In fact, he makes no mention of the new mass in the entire interview, much less does he say how bad it is.  (Read the interview yourself and see.)

    In the 6-8-12 DICI interview, Bishop Fellay does refer to the “errors of the Council” – but only once, as follows:

         The official authorities do not want to acknowledge the
         errors of the Council. They will never say so explicitly.
         Nevertheless, if you read between the lines, you can see
         that they hope to remedy some of these errors.

    As shown in this quote, Bishop Fellay’s only reference to the errors of Vatican II is to support his false claim that Rome has become more conservative and that Rome wants to “remedy” Vatican II errors!  In other words, Bishop Fellay was only mentioning the errors of Vatican II as part of assuring the faithful that the hierarchy is becoming more conservative and everything is getting better in the Church. (24)

    You apparently never read the 6-8-12 DICI interview itself, [Fr. Themann,] and instead were merely repeating without examination, these falsehoods which Bishop Fellay has repeated so often, e.g., on 12-28-12. (25)  Dig deeper!  Inform yourself! -especially before presenting yourself as an expert to hundreds of trusting people in St. Marys, and later, to thousands of people throughout the U.S.;  and now the SSPX is promoting your harmful conference internationally!  Bishop Fellay’s repetitions of these same falsehoods do not make them true!


    Your Failure to Accurately Address How Making a Deal With Rome Would Affect the Local Bishops’ Power Over the SSPX.

    You say that:

         It is precisely on the right of the Society to criticize Vatican
         II and the

    _____________________________
    24.     See the analysis here:  http://www.truetrad.com/index.php/the-truth/problemswith-bp-fellay/bishop-fellay/bishop-fellay-s-dici-interview

    25.     12-28-12 Ontario, Canada conference of Bishop Fellay, starting at time 45:18 of 1:39:18 at


    FYC:
    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/embed/uZrOMMfW5n0[/youtube]



    NOTE:  We should not miss what the modus operandi of +F is here.  He is wont to accuse the Resistance of "Internet rumour" but here he is fabricating his own Internet rumour!

    He never gives any examples of what he means by "Internet rumor" and here, he doesn't give any examples of the "errors of Vat.II," either!

    He says he "made a test," but it's interesting to note, that nobody took his test!  He gave an examination and the students didn't even show up to take it!

    He claims to "speak about the errors of Vat.II and how bad the Newmass is," but in fact, these things are hardly a blip on the radar!  He only pretends to mention it so that later he can claim he mentioned it!

    This is all typical of Liberalism.  It's the same claptrap that Obama has been dishing out on his mindless lemmings.  These ERRORS OF RUSSIA  have been useful tools for the Communists for a century, and now they're creeping into the SSPX.



    Finally!!  Halfway through TheRecusant #12!!


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #124 on: February 02, 2014, 12:32:50 AM »
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    (cont'd from p.17)

    Your Failure to Accurately Address How Making a Deal With Rome Would Affect the Local Bishops’ Power Over the SSPX.

    You say that:

         It is precisely on the right of the Society to criticize Vatican II
    Page 18

         and the new mass, that caused the discussions [with Rome] to
         break. It was not the practical questions whether we’d be exempt
         from the bishops or whatever, that was not the problem. Rome
         was going to grant that.” 43:11 (emphasis added).

    Are you aware that Bishop Fellay’s 6-8-12 DICI interview contradicts what you say?  Bishop Fellay says that the local modernist bishops will have some veto power over the SSPX’s work:

         There is a lot of confusion about this question, and it is
         caused mainly by a misunderstanding of the nature of a
         personal prelature, as well as by a misreading of the normal
         relation between the local ordinary and the prelature. … [L]et
         us say this clearly, if a personal prelature were granted to us,
         our situation would not be the same. … It is still true—since
         it is Church law—that in order to open a new chapel or
         to found a work, it would be necessary to have the
         permission of the local ordinary.
             (Emphasis added.) (26)

    Do you think the SSPX would be “exempt from the bishops” (as you say) when the SSPX cannot open a new chapel, start a new school, etc., without the permission of the local modernist bishop?


    The SSPX Now Conforms Its Rules of Conduct to What the SSPX Believes to be Achievable by Human Means.


    Beginning May 6, 1988, Archbishop Lefebvre stood for firm principle – no agreement with unconverted Rome.  He did not see any human way for Rome to convert and to see the errors of Vatican II. But he did not say – like the SSPX now says – that the precondition must be changed because Rome won’t accept the precondition we have.

    Archbishop Lefebvre stuck to what was right, regardless of what Rome might do. Here is what Archbishop Lefebvre said:

         [W]e prefer to continue in Tradition; to keep Tradition
         while waiting for Tradition to regain its place at Rome,
         while waiting for Tradition to reassume its place in the
         Roman authorities, in their minds. This will last for as
         long as the Good Lord has foreseen.
              Episcopal consecration sermon, 1988.

    You say that the current SSPX changed its longstanding principle that there would be no agreement with unconverted Rome because that would not happen “short of a miracle.”

    Here are your words:

         Now, short of a miracle – and miracles can happen but
         you don’t use miracles, you don’t assume miracles in
         determining your prudential decisions.
     But short of a
         miracle, Rome is not going to accept that Vatican II has
         errors in it. 44:40.

    So Archbishop Lefebvre says we must stand firm, despite the fact that Rome’s conversion
    ______________________________
    26.     6-8-12 DICI interview* at http://www.dici.org/en/news/interview-with-bisho-pbernard-fellay-on-relations-with-rome/ (emphasis added).


    * BINGO  "We're sorry, that page was not found - Error 404" -- dici no longer displays this intereview.  Gee.  I wonder why?  We should keep track of these.


    .
    .
    .

    So, here we have Fr. Themann proclaiming that their excuse for making this change in what was handed down to us from ABL, is that even though ABL from May 6th 1988 to the end of his life held firm to his precept of no agreement with unconverted Rome, and that this will endure as long as the good Lord forsees, now we know better!  Now we have become WISER than ABL and his anachronous ideology, because we have DISCOVERED A NEW PRINCIPLE (which is found nowhere in Catholic Tradition!) that "You Don't Assume Miracles in Determining Your Prudential Decisions."  This is the product of the BAD THINKING that you find explained on pages 1-2, above.  Ideas have consequences.  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it certainly appears that this FALSE PRINCIPLE on page 2 was pinned up on the wall from the very start IN ORDER to implement this FALSE PRINCIPLE later, that is, here on page 18 (minutes 43-44 of Fr. Themann's talk).  He planted his erroneous seed 40 minutes in advance of applying the erroneous fruit thereof.


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #125 on: February 02, 2014, 01:06:01 AM »
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    The ink dried again.  I made a mistake in the above post, with a misplaced hyphen in the URL!  Shame, shame, shame on me!!

    DICI does have a copy of the June 8th interview,

    http://www.dici.org/en/news/interview-with-bishop-bernard-fellay-on-relations-with-rome/

    I misspelled the link:  "...bisho-pbernard-fellay..."

    Here is the relevant 3 paragraphs:

    Bishop Fellay: There is a lot of confusion about this question, and it is caused mainly by a misunderstanding of the nature of a personal prelature, as well as by a misreading of the normal relation between the local ordinary and the prelature.  Add to that the fact that the only example available today of a personal prelature is Opus Dei.  However, and let us say this clearly, if a personal prelature were granted to us, our situation would not be the same.  In order to understand better what would happen, we must reflect that our status would be much more similar to that of a military ordinariate, because we would have ordinary jurisdiction over the faithful.  Thus we would be like a sort of diocese, the jurisdiction of which extends to all its faithful regardless of their territorial situation.

    All the chapels, churches, priories, schools, and works of the Society and of the affiliated religious Congregations would be recognized with a real autonomy for their ministry.

    It is still true—since it is Church law—that in order to open a new chapel or to found a work, it would be necessary to have the permission of the local ordinary. We have quite obviously reported to Rome how difficult our present situation was in the dioceses, and Rome is still working on it.  Here or there, this difficulty will be real, but since when is life without difficulties?  Very probably we will also have the contrary problem, in other words, we will not be able to respond to the requests that will come from the bishops who are friendly to us.  I am thinking of one bishop who could ask us to take charge of the formation of future priests in his diocese.

    .
    .
    .

    [If memory serves me correctly, at the time there was a bishop in Sri Lanka who was asking the SSPX to take charge of his diocese seminary, and the story got some coverage for a while, but that story seems to have faded away over time.]


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #126 on: February 02, 2014, 02:20:16 AM »
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    I was talking about post number 101, currently found on thread-page 20.  Here, on Open Letter page 2 and 3 you find the material to which I referred (PLEASE see my note in blue font after Page 3):







    Quote from: TheRecusant
    N.B. We reproduce the following article with the kind permission of the authors of www.TrueTrad.com The Recusant resumes its usual format in January.



    An Open Letter to Fr. Daniel Themann



    From: Anonymous
    (We are reachable at Father.Themann.Answered@gmail.com )
    Feast of St. Teresa of Avila, 2013 [October 15th]
    Re: Answering your question: “Resistance to what?”


    Dear Father Themann,

    We have listened carefully to your April 2013 conference given at St. Marys, and which the SSPX sent to the faithful on its mailing list, as a free two-CD set, accompanied by a long written summary of your talk. In this present letter, through which we respond to your conference, all citations refer to disc 1, track 2 unless otherwise noted.

    We are aware of many priests and laity who have pointed out errors and crucial omissions in your conference. We join our voices to theirs, attempting to mitigate the confusion your conference has caused.

    We apologize for the length of our letter. But when you talk for 2½ hours, you can’t expect our answer to be only two pages.

    We hold that Bishop Fellay’s attempt to make a purely practical agreement with unconverted Rome is not the SSPX’s chief problem, but is a symptom of the SSPX’s problem. The problem itself is the continual liberalizing of the SSPX over time.


    Your False Explanation Regarding Matters Of Prudence


    Your entire talk hinges upon the (false) absolute division you make between “questions of principle” and “questions of prudence”.  10:40.

    Here are your words in one of the places you emphasize this point:

    Page 2

          “Does the question of accepting a canonical structure
          boil down to a question of principle, or a question of
          prudence? It is very important to answer this question
          correctly, or nothing else makes sense.” Id.


    This is your first error regarding prudence.  The truth is that all questions of prudence are questions of principle applied to particular circuмstances.(1)  So for example, when someone hands you a gold coin for safekeeping and then later asks you to return it, you will know how to respond to his request by applying a universal principle to the particular circuмstances. In this example, the universal principle is:  return property to its owner.(2)  So, using the virtue of prudence, you would apply that universal principle to the circuмstance that you have the man’s coin, and so you would return the coin to him.

    Thus, your first error is to wrongly attempt to separate “questions of principle” from “questions of prudence”.  The truth is that every matter of prudence is acting on principle!

    Don’t you see that, if you and the SSPX say that your actions need not be “questions of principle”, then you would be saying you think you are free to act in any way you choose?  But there’s more.  

    Your second error regarding prudence, is your misunderstanding how changed circuмstances(3) affect prudent actions.  When ceasing to follow a prior principle (like no deal with unconverted Rome), you seem to think that it is an adequate explanation to simply invoke changed circuмstances.  But although circuмstances might change which principle applies, there is always a different principle which then does apply.

    Let us illustrate this point by an example:  start with this general principle:  return property to its owner.  But man’s fallen human nature can cause exceptions to this principle.(4)  Suppose, a man gives a gun to you for safekeeping and then suppose he becomes crazy and so asks you to return his gun because he wants to commit murder.  In that circuмstance, prudence requires that another principle takes precedence and must be applied, viz., never give a gun to a madman.

    So, after Archbishop Lefebvre realized his mistake in signing the 5-88 protocol with Rome he laid down the following principle, which he maintained until his death:

          It is, therefore, a strict duty for every priest wanting
          to remain Catholic to   separate himself from this Conciliar
          Church for as long as it does not rediscover the Tradition
          of the Church and of the Catholic Faith.

                   Spiritual Journey, Archbishop Lefebvre, p.13.

    Here is another way Archbishop Lefebvre formulated the same principle:

          [W]e prefer to continue in Tradition; to keep Tradition
          while waiting for Tradition to regain its place at Rome, while
          waiting for Tradition to reassume its place in the Roman
          authorities, in their minds. This will last for as long as the
          Good Lord has foreseen.

                     Episcopal consecration sermon, 1988.


    _____________________________
    FOOTNOTES
    1. St. Thomas says it this way: “prudence … applies universal principles to the particular conclusions of practical matters.”  Summa Theologica, St. Thomas Aquinas, IIa IIae, Q.47, a.6.
    2. In his Treatise on Prudence, St. Thomas phrases this universal principle of action as follows:  “the restitution of a deposit to the depositor is in accordance with natural equality”.  Summa, IIa IIae, Q.57, a.2, ad 1.
    3. We think it is plain that no relevant circuмstances have changed in Rome. In fact, if we had not been witnessing Bishop Fellay’s gradual slide into liberalism for many years, we would not have believed that anyone could be so naïve as to think that Assisi-hosting, mosque-praying, Vatican II-promoting Pope Benedict XVI was anything but a conciliar revolutionary.  More on that below.
    4. St. Thomas says it this way:  “if human nature were always right, this [principle] would always have to be observed”.  Summa, IIa IIae, Q.57, a.2, ad 1.  The principle St. Thomas refers to, is the one quoted in footnote 2.



    Page 3

    Archbishop Lefebvre’s firm principle beginning in May 1988 – no agreement with unconverted Rome – is a principle analogous to the principle (in our example) return property to its owner.  So if someone asks you why you refused to return the property given to you for safekeeping, it would be completely inadequate for you to simply say that there were “changed circuмstances”.  Rather, you would have to invoke the superseding principle and explain how the new circuмstances caused the application of the superseding principle.  In other words, you would have to explain that no one should give a gun to a crazy man and that this particular man had become crazy and wanted his gun in order to commit murder. (5)

    So you are only freed from following the first principle of action because you are bound by the (second) superseding principle.  In your conference, you say that circuмstances freed the SSPX from Archbishop Lefebvre’s principle, apparently (in your view) leaving the SSPX free to do whatever it chooses to do.  

    But prudence requires that we always act according to principle.

    If you really think that changed circuмstances free the SSPX from following Archbishop Lefebvre’s principle, then clearly state which (second) superseding principle Bishop Fellay is applying and how the circuмstances require this. [/color]
    [/b]
    Because you fail to invoke any superseding principle of action and fail to explain how (supposed) changed circuмstances require the SSPX to follow this superseding principle, your explanation is woefully incomplete.


    Summary of this section:  You make two errors regarding what prudence is: (5a)

    1. You fail to understand that all questions of prudence are questions of principle and that in matters of prudence we are acting on principle.

    2. You misunderstand that when circuмstances prevent us from following one principle, it is because we are bound to follow a (second) superseding principle.  Your defence of Bishop Fellay depends on these two key errors about what Prudence is.

    What you said is true that, when a person misunderstands prudence (as you have shown you do) then “nothing else makes sense” when analyzing the negotiations with Rome. 10:40.


    The Rest Of This Letter


    Because your position hinges on what prudence is, and because you made two serious errors showing you misunderstand this virtue, your conference was completely inadequate as an explanation of the SSPX’s recent conduct.  However, we regret that this fact does not end the errors you made during the conference nor the harm you are doing.  Below, we continue our open letter, attempting to help the faithful and correct the misunderstandings you have caused. (5b)

    ___________________________________________
    (5).  St. Thomas says it this way: “but since it happens sometimes that man's will is unrighteous, there are cases in which a deposit should not be restored, lest a man of unrighteous will make evil use of the thing deposited: as when a madman or an enemy of the common weal demands the return of his weapons.” Id.

    (5a).  The fact that we have proof here on CI that at least one of Fr. Themann's minions (petwerp) refuses to recognize this principle, nor its source, nor its truth, nor its proper application here, is proof positive that Fr. Themann has caused misunderstandings to proliferate. (5b)  I'm only glad that others of his minions don't clutter these threads with their inanities, as Nicholas, above, aptly observes.

    (5b).  Fr. Themann has caused misunderstandings to proliferate.




    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

    Question:  WHAT IS THE SUPERSEDING PRINCIPLE?


    If Fr. Themann really thinks that changed circuмstances free the SSPX from following Archbishop Lefebvre’s principle, then he should be easily able to clearly state which superseding principle Bishop Fellay is applying and how the circuмstances require this.  

    In light of the material on Page 18, above, it might appear that this "principle" would be, "You don't assume miracles in determining your prudential decisions."

    Notice that Fr. Themann did not identify this as a superseding principle, and that's a good thing he didn't do that, because it isn't one!

    A superseding principle is a DIFFERENT principle that has only RECENTLY come into play, AND, it is one that did not come into play in the prior instance.  

    In this situation at hand, the prior instance was at the time of ABL, as of May 6th, 1988, etc., when he lived the rest of his life under this principle, "no agreement with unconverted Rome," and that "this will endure as long as the good Lord forsees."  If we had asked ABL, "But what about the superseding principle that you don't assume miracles in determining your prudential decisions?" -we had better be fast at DUCKING, because he may well have considered that question an INSULT to his intelligence.

    And we should so consider it likewise.

    ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////






    Page 4

    You (and the current SSPX) Have Accepted The Conciliar Church’s Error that there Is Something Wrong With the SSPX’s Status.

    You say that, “The Society of St. Pius X, once upon a time, had a canonical structure when it was first founded and it was deprived of that canonical structure unjustly.” 11:00.

    When you use the phrase “deprived … unjustly,” that phrase shows you are saying that the SSPX was really deprived of its canonical structure.  This is similar to the fact that, if someone unjustly deprives you of your car, it means that you really and truly don’t have your car any longer.

    You further emphasize your erroneous opinion (viz., that the SSPX is really deprived of its canonical structure), when you add that the SSPX had this canonical structure “once upon a time.”  This phrase “once upon a time” indicates you hold that the SSPX now lacks a canonical structure.  In like manner, one could say that the SSPX was faithful to Archbishop Lefebvre once upon a time.

    So we take it as plain that you think the SSPX no longer truly has its canonical structure.  But your opinion is false.  The truth is that the SSPX still has its canonical structure because Rome unjustly attempted to (but did not really) deprive the SSPX of its status – but only in appearance.

    You can see your error by understanding the words of Archbishop Lefebvre.  In his prudential determination regarding how to act, when the conciliar church falsely and invalidly purported to “deprive” his Society of its canonical structure,

    Archbishop Lefebvre invoked this principle:

         In the Church, law and jurisdiction are at the service of the
          Faith, the primary reason for the Church. There is no law, no
          jurisdiction which can impose on us a lessening of our Faith.

                 Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre, by Michael Davies, vol. 1, p.151,
                 quoting the 9-3-75 Letter to friends and benefactors #9. (6)

    So, as Archbishop Lefebvre correctly reasoned, his Society was not truly deprived of its canonical structure, because law and jurisdiction cannot be used to harm the Faith and the Society which was supposedly “suppressed” entirely because it stood almost alone defending the Faith.

    Reverend Dr. Boyd A. Cathey, a canon lawyer, made this same point when he analyzed the SSPX’s canonical case and publicly defended Archbishop Lefebvre at the time.  Father Cathey concluded his analysis as follows:

          [T]he multiple irregularities and the obvious failure to render
          justice to Archbishop Lefebvre can only lead to one conclusion:
          the Society of St. Pius X continues to enjoy canonical existence;
          the measures taken against it and its founder lack validity.

                 Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre, vol. 1, p.450.

    ____________________________________________
    (6).  St. Thomas says the same thing in the context of what is true about all law, including all Church law. Summa, Ia IIae, Q. 90.

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #127 on: February 04, 2014, 04:54:47 AM »
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  • .

    (from p. 18)
    So Archbishop Lefebvre says we must stand firm, despite the fact that Rome’s conversion
    Page 19

    cannot be humanly expected in the foreseeable future. The SSPX now says we should change our principle to something humanly attainable – like peaceful co-existence with unconverted Rome. (27)

    You say that “it is our duty to fight”. 48:40. That is true. We fight by clearly and unyieldingly standing in complete opposition to conciliar errors. We don’t “fight” by asking for permission to tell the truth, as the current SSPX has been doing. We tell the truth regardless of what the conciliar church does. Further, we don’t constantly say favorable things about the conciliar church and Vatican II, as the current SSPX does, such as when the SSPX has been (falsely) saying that “there is no doubt that many Vatican II texts are traditional”.


    Continued Negotiations after June 2012

    You try to give the impression that Rome just could not understand that the negotiations ended with Bishop Fellay’s (supposed) third “no”, at the June 13, 2012 meeting with Cardinal Levada. Here are your words:

         October 27, 2012, … L’Osservatory Romano published
         an unsigned article from the congregation of Ecclessia Dei,  
         claiming that the commission is still waiting for an answer
         to the June 13 doctrinal statement, even though Bishop
         Fellay already answered now three times that he cannot
         sign it. 38:15.

    Have you not read this very Vatican Radio press release to which you refer? It includes the following:

         The Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei takes this occasion
         to announce that, in its most recent official communication
         (6 September 2012), the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X
         has indicated that additional time for reflection and study
         is needed on their part as they prepare their response to
         the Holy See’s latest initiatives. (28)

    In other words, the Ecclesia Dei Commission told the world that the SSPX asked for more time. The SSPX has mentioned this press release many times and has never publicly denied asking for more time to prepare its response. You do not deny either, that the SSPX asked for more time. You simply act puzzled that they continued waiting for the SSPX’s answer.

    This is not the first or only time Rome publicly said it understands the SSPX is preparing an answer, following the June 13, 2012 meeting. In July, Rome said it “awaits the forthcoming official Communication of the Priestly Fraternity as their dialogue with the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei continues.” (29)

    Also, as late as October 2012, SSPX German District spokesman, Fr. Andreas Steiner, was still saying that the expulsion of Bishop Williamson would help the ongoing negotiations with Rome. (30)

    Not only has the SSPX never denied Rome’s official, public claim that the SSPX has asked for more time to respond, but the supposed “no” you say that Bishop Fellay gave

    ____________________________________
    27.     http://www.sspx.org/sspx_and_rome/is_the_sspx_heretical_3_12-11-2012.htm

    28.     http://www.news.va/en/news/full-text-declaration-of-the-pontifical-commission (emphasis added;  parenthetical date in the original).

    29.     http://www.news.va/en/news/holy-see-concerning-the-declaration-of-the-general

    30.     Interview of Fr. Steiner found at: http://religion.orf.at/stories/2555877/




    .
    .
    .

    The link in footnote 27 yields no results. I went to the sspx.org website and searched for "is the sspx heretical" and found no useful or likely hits (there were a bunch of pages showing that found words like "is" "the" and "sspx."  Then I searched for "12-11-2012" and there were no results.  Then I searched for "sspx and rome" and got 9 pages of hits, which I read through and found nothing close to the referenced topic. I searched for "humanly suspected foreseeable future" and got NO RESULTS.  Finally I searched for "foreseeable future" and again got the following two results:

        To live and let die
        ... to the artificial feeding of a man who will die in the near future of a certain illness. While the artificial feeding prevents death from ... physicians, that she was dying and would actually die in a foreseeable future, and the court considered that she was perhaps dying, ...

        January 2003 - Superior General's Letter #63
        ... Leaving the SSPX behind Besides this wholly foreseeable evolution of minds by which the Campos priests have, whatever they ... going back to the first Apostle? To guarantee our future, we must obtain from today’s Rome clear proof of its attachment to the ...

      Therefore it appears to me this topic has been scrubbed.


    The link in footnote 28 is currently active and the page is displayed.

    The link in footnote 29 is currently active and the page is displayed.

    The interview with Fr. Steiner linked in footnote 30 is currently active and the page is displayed, in German.



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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #128 on: February 04, 2014, 05:19:58 AM »
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    Regarding page 19:

    There is mention of the "duty to fight" near the bottom of p.16, too.

    There is a four-part answer here to the question, "How do we fight [for Tradition / the Faith]?  

    1)  By clearly and unyieldingly standing in complete opposition to conciliar errors,

    2)  We tell the truth regardless of what the conciliar church does,

    3)  We don’t “fight” by asking for permission to tell the truth, and

    4)  We don’t constantly say favorable things about the conciliar church and Vatican II, as the current SSPX does, such as when the SSPX has been (falsely) saying that “there is no doubt that many Vatican II texts are traditional.”

    .
    .

    It appears that Fr. Themann is attempting to fabricate his own 'Internet rumour' here by acting puzzled when Rome kept waiting for +F's response after +F had told the Society on several occasions that he could not sign any agreement.  There is, after all, the public record of the Vatican announcing to the world that +F asked for MORE TIME to think about signing their agreement.


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #129 on: February 06, 2014, 04:40:17 PM »
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  • .

    (from p.19)

    Not only has the SSPX never denied Rome’s official, public claim that the SSPX has asked for more time to respond, but the supposed “no” you say that Bishop Fellay gave
    Page 20
    to Cardinal Levada during their June 13, 2012 meeting, is inconsistent with how Bishop Fellay describes this same meeting.  Bishop Fellay narrates that Cardinal Levada told him that the SSPX must accept the truth and goodness of Vatican II.  Bishop Fellay says that he responded:  “That will be difficult.”  (31)

    When a traditional Catholic is told to accept the new mass (or to burn incense to false gods, or whatever), how could he respond that his acceptance of this mortal sin “will be difficult”?  Do you, [Fr. Themann,] think that Archbishop Lefebvre would have answered that way?  Can you see Archbishop Lefebvre responding in any way other than:  “That is impossible!”


    The SSPX’s Principles are Slowly and Steadily Becoming Weaker

    Another way of answering your question, “Resistance to what?” is that we are resisting the current SSPX’s gradual change of many of its firm principles of conduct into “squishy” rules depending upon fuzzy circuмstances.  Previously, the principle was no deal with unconverted Rome.  Now the new rule seems to be that:  a)  it’s okay to make a deal with unconverted Rome if the current SSPX can get some promises from Rome; and  b)  the current SSPX can trust that Rome will keep those promises, even though Rome did not keep its promises to the various compromised “traditional” societies which previously went with and trusted Rome). (32)

    However, just like in the conciliar church, the current SSPX is not entirely consistent in this time of crisis, while becoming more liberal.  So we don’t consider you as having shown the current SSPX to be “rock solid” simply because you can find some traditional statements some SSPX priest or website still makes.  This is similar to the conciliar popes saying traditional and modernist things on the same subject, sometimes in the same encyclical. In other words, the problem with the current SSPX’s liberalism, does not disappear because the SSPX still sometimes talks conservatively too.


    Your Weak Definition of “Traditional Catholic

    You display the current SSPX’s characteristic softness when you use the phrase, “traditional Catholic.”  This is only one of countless indications of the weakening of the current SSPX.  You refer to the “Ecclesia Dei side of the traditional Catholic universe” [24:30], showing you consider the indult / motu compromise groups to be part of the traditional Catholic community.  Then you say something similar at 25:00, where you call the Ecclesia Dei groups who don’t think Vatican II is the problem, one “side of the traditional Catholic spectrum.”

    If the indult groups were traditional Catholic, then they would not be wrong and compromisers, as they are!  Traditional Catholics are those who embrace all of Catholic Tradition.  But because you call the Ecclesia Dei groups “Traditional Catholic,” although they deny that Vatican II has errors and deny that the new mass is evil, your definition apparently includes everyone who embraces some amount or aspect of Catholic Tradition.  Under that fuzzy definition, even Pope Francis would be a Traditional Catholic, e.g., because of his professed devotion to the Rosary and his recently stating that he prays 15 decades each day. (33)

    Your weak definition of the phrase “traditional Catholic” is a typical example of the

    _________________________________________
    31.     October 2012 Angelus Press Doctrinal Conference, Bishop Fellay conference disc 2, about 32:00 minutes into his conference.

    32.     One of the many examples of Rome breaking its promises to these indult groups, is Rome’s treatment of the Good Shepherd Institute.  You will find this account of Rome’s faithlessness on the front page of the Remnant in the summer of 2012.  This article can be purchased for a small fee, as a Remnant reprint.  You can also find this same article for free here:  http://www.truetrad.com/index.php/other-organizations-who-made-a-dealwith-rome/84-the-truth/consequences-of-compromise-with-modernist-rome/102-the-goodshepherd-institute

    33.     Quoted in the May 30, 2013 Letter to the Tertiaries of Penance of St. Dominic, Letter #84 (emphasis added).



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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #130 on: February 06, 2014, 05:09:24 PM »
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  • Quote

    Page 20
    ...

    The SSPX’s Principles are Slowly and Steadily Becoming Weaker

    Another way of answering your question, “Resistance to what?” is that we are resisting the current SSPX’s gradual change of many of its firm principles of conduct into “squishy” rules depending upon fuzzy circuмstances.  Previously, the principle was no deal with unconverted Rome.  Now the new rule seems to be that:  

    a)  it’s okay to make a deal with unconverted Rome if [only] the current SSPX can [just] get some promises from Rome;  and  

    b)  the current SSPX can trust that Rome will keep those promises, even though Rome did not keep its promises to the various compromised “traditional” societies which [have] previously went with, and trusted, Rome. (32)


    ...the list continues thusly;


    c)  whatever newfangled by-line +F comes up with, is not only fine but acceptable and defended by his minions (like petwerp and azul) as if it were ABL's own longstanding policy, and

    d)  they'll even try to dredge up ABL quotes (post-1988 if they can find them) to support it!

    e)   AND WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS, they'll predictably revert to the tried and true Liberal/Nietzschiean fail-safe position of abject denial:  

    "If that's all you have, you haven't got anything."




    This is to be referenced in the notes of page 26, coming soon to an Internet computer near you!  Stay tuned!!



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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #131 on: February 06, 2014, 05:53:34 PM »
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    (from p.20)

    Your weak definition of the phrase “traditional Catholic” is a typical example of the
    Page 21
    current SSPX’s movement in many ways toward those compromise groups.  Another example of this movement is the SSPX’s Polish District website announcement of the Ecclesia Dei groups’ ordination schedules last spring.

    (If you want a copy of this SSPX announcement, email us at:  Father.Themann.Answered@gmail.com. )

    By promoting the Ecclesia Dei groups’ ordination schedules, the current SSPX is encouraging the priests and faithful to attend those ordinations.  It no longer advises its priests and faithful to keep a distance to avoid contamination by the many errors of the compromise societies, nor does the current SSPX warn about the errors of these compromise societies.

    Your Strange Definition of the Phrase “Conciliar Church

    You say that, when the SSPX uses the phrase “conciliar church”, it “means the structure/ hierarchy in so far as it is infected with modernist errors.” 8:15.  But Modernism has been around for a long time and existed back in St. Pius X’s time.  But the conciliar church did not exist then, nor did that phrase.  The truth is that the phrase “conciliar church” specifically refers to the human element of the Church only since Vatican II, and imbued with Vatican II, not modernism generally.  You can see the error of your definition if you simply reflect that even you would not refer to modernist bishops of the 1950s as the “conciliar church of the 1950s.”  Why?  Because the phrase “conciliar church” refers to the council.

    Another error in your erroneous definition of the phrase “conciliar church,” is that your definition only mentions “errors.”  The truth is that this phrase refers to the entire milieu of softening, weakening and betrayal of our Lord by omission and by implication, not only by explicit errors.  The phrase, “conciliar church,” encompasses all of the changes and novelties of the Vatican II church, not merely the “contrary novelties” which Bishop Fellay professes to oppose in his 4-15-12 Doctrinal Preamble.

    Moreover, you err further when you contrast the traditional Catholic understanding of the phrase “conciliar church,” with the meaning understood by the sedevacantists. 8:15.  You say that “when a sedevacantist uses that term, he means a different thing from the Catholic Church, … a different structure.” 8:15.  You are wrong to view it as unique to the sedevacantist position to hold that the conciliar church also refers to “different structures.”

    In this view, you are not faithful to Archbishop Lefebvre’s use of the phrase “conciliar church.”  For example, he wrote on July 29, 1976:  “This Conciliar Church is a schismatic church because it breaks with the Catholic Church of all time.  It has its ... new institutions.

    You fail to understand that traditional Catholics correctly use the phrase “conciliar church” to refer to different conciliar structures / institutions such as the standing diocesan councils, national councils of bishops, parish councils, etc.  Those are “different structures” and it is important for (non-sedevacantist) traditional Catholics to use the phrase “conciliar church” to refer to these different structures.

    So it is clear that the phrase “conciliar church” refers to the Vatican II church in particular.  We notice that the phrase “conciliar church” has almost entirely fallen out of the current SSPX’s lexicon, apparently to de-emphasize the fact that the conciliar church is the church of Vatican II.


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #132 on: February 06, 2014, 06:08:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: TheRecusant #12
    .

    (from p.20)

    Your weak definition of the phrase “traditional Catholic” is a typical example of the
    Page 21
    current SSPX’s movement in many ways toward those compromise groups.  Another example of this movement is the SSPX’s Polish District website announcement of the Ecclesia Dei groups’ ordination schedules last spring.

    (If you want a copy of this SSPX announcement, email us at:  Father.Themann.Answered@gmail.com. )

    By promoting the Ecclesia Dei groups’ ordination schedules, the current SSPX is encouraging the priests and faithful to attend those ordinations.  It no longer advises its priests and faithful to keep a distance to avoid contamination by the many errors of the compromise societies, nor does the current SSPX warn about the errors of these compromise societies.

    .



    Do not miss the historical fact that +F denied ordination to several candidates in the summer of 2013, as he was preparing to expell several SSPX priests -- and even a bishop! -- all because of these men having expressed an unwillingness to support +F's aggiornamento aggenda.

    So here they are in Poland, encouraging the Faithful to attend FSSP ordinations, while +F is DIScouraging the Faithful from attending SSPX ordinations of priests who are aware and vocal about the problems represented by FSSP accommodation principles.

    The modus operandi is obvious, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear (unlike petwerp and azul, for example).


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #133 on: February 12, 2014, 01:55:17 PM »
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  • .

    (from the end of p.21)
    So it is clear that the phrase “conciliar church” refers to the Vatican II church in particular. We notice that the phrase “conciliar church” has almost entirely fallen out of the current SSPX’s lexicon, apparently to de-emphasize the fact that the conciliar church is the church of Vatican II.

    Page 22

    This is an inconvenient truth for the current SSPX, because the current SSPX attempts to de-link the phrase “conciliar church” from Vatican II in particular, as a means of deemphasizing that Vatican II is the problem. The current SSPX says that it “accepts 95%” of Vatican II’s teachings and that “there is no doubt that many Vatican II texts are traditional”.

    The current SSPX’s whitewashing of Vatican II contrasts greatly with the truth. See, e.g.,
    what is proved in Lumen Gentium Annotated, about that Vatican II docuмent:

         It is clear that Lumen Gentium teaches things on virtually
         every page which are inconsistent with the traditional
         teachings of the Catholic Church. It is evident from reading
         Lumen Gentium that much of its text is orthodox, at least
         when an orthodox meaning is imposed upon the
         ambiguities in the text, while ignoring the context which
         indicates another meaning instead.
             (Lumen Gentium Annotated, p. 310, emphasis added.)

    Do you agree that it betrays our Lord and the Faith to agree to accept ambiguous statements of Vatican II by imposing a meaning on the text which is against the context which shows a different meaning of those statements? An intellect which adheres to the truth and to our Lord would reject all such ambiguous statements.

    We are well aware that the current SSPX has made a number of vague references, to the errors of Vatican II recently, to quell the objection that the current SSPX has gone soft on Vatican II.  However, the current SSPX’s mention of Vatican II’s errors comes with little or no depth, detail or analysis. Bishop Fellay’s 12-28-12 conference is a typical example.  He mentions no substance, explanation or details about Vatican II’s errors. Instead, he promotes the error that the hierarchy is becoming more conservative. (36)

    {Fr. Themann is behaving as though "conciliar church" is some kind of fable, or Internet rumour!  This subtle, or should I say "SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE" is itself, actually, its own Internet rumour! (36.a)}


    The Lack of Firmness Shown in SSPX’s Request that Rome Free the Mass

    One of the conditions for beginning discussions with Rome was that the traditional Mass be freed from all restrictions. 17:00. You say that the 2007 motu proprio does that and therefore is not an indult [18:30] and the current SSPX holds this condition fulfilled.  However, the motu proprio (in article 2) still does not free the Mass to allow it to be offered on any day whatsoever, e.g., during the Sacred Triduum. (37)  There are other serious restrictions, too. Id. (38)

    Further, the motu proprio is only for the nostalgic priest, not for any priest who opposes the new mass on principle, because the pope declared that a priest could not “exclude celebrating according to the new books … as a matter of principle.” 7-7-07 letter of Pope Benedict XVI.  Thus, the motu proprio does nothing for traditional Catholics. Although  you legalistically say this condition is not technically part of the law because it is contained in the pope’s accompanying letter, nonetheless the truth is that it is part of the law as interpreted and enforced by the lawgiver, and was part of the application of the law  which the Ecclesia Dei Commission used to prevent the Good Shepherd Institute from using the traditional Mass exclusively.

    The SSPX’s erroneous position about the 2007 motu proprio, reminds us of another

    ______________________________________
    36.     Here is the audio of the conference:   ;
    {I checked:  "This Video Does Not Exist."}
    Here is a transcript of the conference:  http://www.therecusant.com/fellay-conf-dec2012 .  
    {The transcript is intact.  The linked page on TheRecusant's website contains the source audio URL, as above, therefore it was obviously existing at the time, but has been SCRUBBED by the owner of the audio, the ID of whom is not shown on the YouTube page which announces the non-existence of the video / audio.  This is a great example of why we must copy and transcribe and archive such items when they are first available, because they constitute evidence of a bumbling Menzingen-denizen, who continues to do dumb things, and then once he realizes he did something dumb, he tries to cover it up.}
    {36.a.    I, Neil Obstat, added the italics and underline for emphasis to this paragraph;  likewise, THE NOTE, following the section, "Your Strange Definition of the Phrase 'Conciliar Church'," as follows:  Fr. Themann is behaving as though "conciliar church" is some kind of fable, or Internet rumour!  This subtle, or should I say "SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE" is itself, actually, its own Internet rumour!}


    37.     See an analysis correcting your errors on this subject, at this link:  http://www.truetrad.com/index.php/the-truth/miscellaneous/the-false-miracle-of-the-rosary-crusade
    {The linked page is alive and well, thanks to truetrad.com see copy below in the first following post.}

    38.     Remnant report posted here: http://www.truetrad.com/index.php/other-organizations-who-made-a-deal-with-rome/84-the-truth/consequences-of-compromise-with-modernist-rome/102-the-good-shepherd-institute
    {I have copied the contents of this web page in the second subsequent post, here, below.}

    ________________________________________
    _________________XXX____________________


    It seems to me there is one paragraph on page 22 that is most key to the current observations in particular and to the crisis in the SSPX in general.  Sometimes it helps to re-arrange the words of an important concept to more firmly reveal its significance:  

    Question:
    What could possibly be the motive behind Bishop Fellay's curious behavior when he promotes the obvious error that the hierarchy in Rome is becoming more conservative?

    Answer:
    The only possible explanation for this odd behavior is that Bishop Fellay is in denial, and is digging himself and the SSPX deeper into the deep morass of problems by his refusal to admit that his approach is erroneous, and instead, he has been using this lame smokescreen that "Rome is becoming more conservative."

    Question:
    When the current SSPX encounters the objection that "they have gone soft on Vatican II," what have they done about it?  Have they recognized the truth in that observation and then have they forthwith corrected their error and have they stopped going soft on Vat.II as would be expected of good, Catholic leadership, or have they done something else?

    Answer:
    Instead of recognizing the truth in the objection that they have gone soft on Vat.II and instead of consequently proceeding to correct their erstwhile error, as they would do if they were TRUE SONS of ABL, what the current SSPX has done, has been to make a number of vague references to "the errors of Vat.II" recently;  and they have done so with a purpose in mind, a fact we can observe from their behavior, even though Bishop Fellay asserts, "They are not in my head!"

    Question:
    What is this purpose that the current SSPX leadership has in mind when they have made a number of vague references to the errors of Vat.II recently?

    Answer:
    The purpose the current SSPX leadership manifestly has in mind when they have made a number of vague references recently to the 'errors of Vat.II', is to quell the objection that they have gone soft on Vat.II.

    Question:
    How do we know that this has been their purpose?

    Answer:
    We know that the purpose the current SSPX has in mind is to quell the objection that they have gone soft on Vat.II because, their mention of Vat.II's errors comes with little or no depth, detail or analysis.

    Question:
    Do you have any depth, detail or analysis to offer in support of this claim?

    Answer:
    Yes, we do have a typical example to offer, in the words of Bishop Fellay himself.  In his 12-28-2012 conference in St. Mary's Kansas, he mentions neither substance nor explanation nor details about Vat.II's errors.

    Question:
    What, pray tell, does Bishop Fellay proffer at the Kansas 12-28 conference in lieu of any substance, explanation or details in regards to the errors of Vat.II?

    Answer:
    In lieu of any substance, explanation or details regarding the errors of Vat.II, at his Kansas conference of 12-28-2012 Bishop Fellay instead promotes a different error.  Instead of correcting the error that he and his denizens of Menzingen have been going soft on Vat.II, he advances the new error that the hierarchy of modernist Rome is becoming more conservative!




    Finally, I present again the paragraph in question, and ask you, does it not appear much more simple in concept, after having been through the question-and-answer exercise, above?


    We are well aware that the current SSPX has made a number of vague references, to the errors of Vatican II recently, to quell the objection that the current SSPX has gone soft on Vatican II.  

    However, the current SSPX’s mention of Vatican II’s errors comes with little or no depth, detail or analysis.

    Bishop Fellay’s 12-28-12 conference is a typical example.  He mentions no substance, explanation or details about Vatican II’s errors.

    Instead, he promotes the error that the hierarchy is becoming more conservative.


    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Challenge to Fr. Daniel Themann, SSPX - 18 December 2013
    « Reply #134 on: February 12, 2014, 02:38:15 PM »
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    The preceding 2 pages, 21 and 22, have been where the section is found, subtitled

    Your Strange Definition of the Phrase “Conciliar Church

    This phrase rolls off the tongue with ease for a traditional Catholic, that is, one who is accustomed to taking comfort in the concept of definition, per se.  As much as I would like to presume otherwise, it nonetheless seems to be the case that Fr. Themann does not take comfort in that, but instead views definition as some kind of an enemy, per se.

    If this is true, and I really hope it is not, there are grave implications.  

    The first of which implications is that this taking umbrage with the principle of definition per se is one of the symptoms of one's metamorphosis into a Modernist.  

    Like I said, I hope it is not the case, because when one becomes a Modernist, one becomes happy and acclimated to living as in the mind, in the sewer of all heresies.  Like I said, I hope this is not what is happening to Fr. Themann.  But all I have is hope.  Evidence to the contrary is the ball in his court, and the rest is up to Fr. Themann.


    _____________________________________________________
    __________________________XXX_______________________



    Following is the content of the page linked in footnote 37 on page 22, above:

    http://www.truetrad.com/index.php/other-organizations-who-made-a-deal-with-rome/84-the-truth/consequences-of-compromise-with-modernist-rome/102-the-good-shepherd-institute

    Docuмenting the crisis in the SSPX and Catholic Tradition in general   

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    The "Good Shepherd Institute"

    Rome’s Treatment of the Good Shepherd Institute

    (From:  An anonymous friend of TrueTrad)

    In 2006, some former SSPX priests made a deal with Rome, which seemed to give them everything they wanted. The Good Shepherd Institute was promised the exclusive use of the traditional Mass and was assured that it would be given the latitude to criticize Vatican II and post-conciliar innovations.

    Let us see what happened to the Institute.  On March 23, 2012, the Secretary of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, Monsignor Guido Pozzo, sent the Good Shepherd Institute the following results of the Vatican’s newly completed visitation and study of the Institute.  This canonical visit came at the end of the five-year term of experimentation given to the Institute.

    Previously, in 2009, Fr. Philippe Laguérie, the Superior General of the Good Shepherd Institute, felt fully secure that Rome would not demand the Institute priests to offer the new mass.  He said then:

    "Nothing and nobody can force our priests to celebrate the ordinary form of the Mass, not only since the Motu Proprio, but also before. Our priests are bound by the law of obedience to celebrate the traditional Mass."  http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2009-0228-interview-good-shepherd.htm

    In 2012, regarding the Mass, the Ecclesia Dei Commission told the Institute:

    The question of the practice of the extraordinary form [of the Mass], such as it is formulated by the [Institute’s] Bylaws, must be delineated in the spirit of [the 2007 motu proprio] Summorum Pontificuм.  It would be suitable to simply define this form as the “rite proper” to the Institute without speaking of “exclusivity.” http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/ar/t9206.htm ; French version: here.

    So the Ecclesia Dei Commission now says that the Institute can no longer say that it exclusively offers the traditional Mass. This fits with what Pope Benedict XVI said [in] 2007:

    "[In] order to experience full communion, also the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books.  The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness."  (From Pope Benedict XVI’s 7-7-07 letter accompanying the motu proprio.)

    The Ecclesia Dei Commission further pressured the Institute by telling it that it must improve its relationship with the modernist bishops which surround them:

    "It is important that the bishop welcomes and values the specific charism of the institute for the good of the whole diocese and at the same time, that the priests of the institute really fit with the spirit of communion throughout the life of the Church of the Diocese."   http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/ar/t9206.htm ; French version: here.

    Regarding doctrine, at the time of the Institute’s deal with Rome and even in 2009, the Institute was confident that it could protect itself from conciliar errors.  Their Superior General stated that “the Institute is also characterized by a true doctrinal freedom, with respect to the doctrines and authority of the Church.”   http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2009-0228-interview-good-shepherd.htm .

    However, in 2012, the Ecclesia Dei Commission told the Institute that:

    "[T]he doctrinal formation should include a careful study of the [1992] Catechism of the Catholic Church. … Rather than maintaining a critique of Vatican Council II, even a “serious and constructive” one, the efforts of your teachers must point out the transmission of the integrity of the patrimony of the Church, insisting on the hermeneutics of renewal in its continuity and using as support the integrity of Catholic doctrine expounded by the [1992] Catechism of the Catholic Church."  http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/ar/t9206.htm ; French version: here.

    Now, as Bishop Fellay seeks to place the control of the SSPX under modernist Rome, of special note is the 2009 comment of the Institute’s Superior General, regarding the SSPX making a (future) agreement with Rome:

    "The Institute of the Good Shepherd could be spoken of rather as a 'test'.  The Society of Saint Pius X must know instinctively that it will be treated tomorrow as we are treated today."   http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2009-0228-interview-good-shepherd.htm .

     

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