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Author Topic: Bishop Zendejas - Apostolic Mandate  (Read 3110 times)

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Offline curioustrad

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Re: Bishop Zendejas - Apostolic Mandate
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2017, 09:05:04 PM »
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  • .
    Now if only we could READ the .pdf in the OP we could see what it has to say about the understanding of Pope Francis in regards to the necessity of consecrating traditional bishops in the Western Church, or if it says anything at all about that.
    .
    If you click the pdf it opens a larger copy and if you click that - a really large copy.
    Please pray for my soul.
    +
    RIP


    Offline poche

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas - Apostolic Mandate
    « Reply #16 on: May 17, 2017, 12:28:48 AM »
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  • Says your sedevacantist rhetoric. If you are indeed "nado", then you are a sedevacantist who participated in many SGG-themed discussions.

    The Conciliar Church actually says that +ABL's consecration wasn't schismatic, though they won't advertise that. In fact, they go out of their way to make people assume that it is schismatic, without ever saying it explicitly or officially.

    For example, the popes considered the situation with +Lefebvre and the SSPX to be an "internal Church matter" and not matter for the congregation that deals with schismatic churches, other religions, etc.

    That is why +Lefebvre never got a trial. Do you realize that every excommunicate and heretic declared as such by the Church ALWAYS got a trial to define and reject their errors and heresies? But the Church authorities knew that +ABL was guilty of no heresy, and in fact it was THEY who would come out looking like heretics. So he never got a trial. Therefore they used propaganda, misdirection, mental reservation, "letting people assume the wrong thing", etc. to get their deeds done.

    The same with the Latin Mass itself. If you go up the chain, you will eventually be told that the Tridentine Mass was never abrogated. However, they want the word on the street -- the common belief taken to be the truth -- to be PRECISELY that the Tridentine Mass was done away with.

    In conclusion, if +Lefebvre wasn't a schismatic (and it appears that even according to the Conciliar Church he is not), then neither are +Williamson, +Zendejas, +Faure, and +Thomas Aquinas.
    From the Code of Canon Law;
    Can. 1382 A bishop who consecrates some one a bishop without a pontifical mandate and the person who receives the consecration from him incur a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P54.HTM


    Offline wallflower

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas - Apostolic Mandate
    « Reply #17 on: May 17, 2017, 06:58:51 AM »
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  • Poche, when are you going to tire of trolling here?

    It's been how many years and you still pretend you have learned nothing of the intricacies of the Crisis in the Church?


    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas - Apostolic Mandate
    « Reply #18 on: May 17, 2017, 08:01:03 AM »
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  • This Mandatum is given as an explanation as to why the law of the Church is being violated and refused.
    These men, and we must include all neo-Traditional Bishops SSPX, sede, and otherwise were consecrated unlawfully and their status will remain as illicit until said "Catholic Pope" appears and grants forgiveness and acceptance of these orders by the Church.
    This paper has no authority or meaning other than it is a self generated statement of opinion by the participants, and does not advert to acceptance of the Church's authority as represented by the Conciliar rulers, who it is proposed that they obey these popes in all but sin.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas - Apostolic Mandate
    « Reply #19 on: May 17, 2017, 09:06:03 AM »
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  • This Mandatum is given as an explanation as to why the law of the Church is being violated and refused.
    These men, and we must include all neo-Traditional Bishops SSPX, sede, and otherwise were consecrated unlawfully and their status will remain as illicit until said "Catholic Pope" appears and grants forgiveness and acceptance of these orders by the Church.
    This paper has no authority or meaning other than it is a self generated statement of opinion by the participants, and does not advert to acceptance of the Church's authority as represented by the Conciliar rulers, who it is proposed that they obey these popes in all but sin.

    JPaul, this is a forum for TRADITIONAL CATHOLICS.

    You seem to have a problem with the legitimacy of the Traditional Catholic movement. What are you, one of those "home aloners" who hates the Novus Ordo but also considers the "Traditional Movement" not legitimate, and so they stay aloof from it as well? (By the "Traditional Movement", of course I mean priests going independent or forming small organizations, and setting up networks of unapproved "lifeboat" chapels to help laymen keep the Faith)

    What is your position in all this? Who are you rooting for? Said home aloners?

    This is a forum for supporters of the Traditional Movement. This last posts suggests you are NOT one of those supporters.

    I allow ALL Traditional Catholics on CathInfo. But those who hate or don't believe in the movement can hardly be considered "Traditional Catholics", can they? Just hating the Novus Ordo isn't enough. You must be seeking Mass from any valid priest who will offer it (SSPX, Resistance, independent, CMRI, SSPV, etc.) You have to have SOME favorite group within the broad group of the Traditional Movement.

    I pity the home-aloners I describe. They are smart enough to see the evil/problems of the Novus Ordo and new Modernist/Freemasonic religion, but at the same time they have cut themselves off from Mass and the sacraments, under the guise of obedience to Authority. To these sad dupes I would retort: The Church never intended for us to starve ourselves of grace, much less lose the Faith. We need to save our souls NOW, but we can't fix the Crisis. If the Crisis were to be solved by laymen, then maybe the Church would light a fire under our butts by refusing us a temporary stop-gap solution like the Traditional Movement. But as it stands, the Crisis is NOT something that we laymen can fix. And the Church, like Christ Himself, is all love for the precious FAITHFUL souls in her bosom. If a human parent wouldn't allow his children to starve, how could the Church, which is our Mother? Ergo...
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    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas - Apostolic Mandate
    « Reply #20 on: May 17, 2017, 10:00:32 PM »
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  • Dear Matthew,

    You have made a number of allegations which are entirely untrue. I do not, as you allege, hate the "Traditional Movement",
    I have not said that it is illegitimate. I simply pointed out the FACT, that most of its Bishops were unlawfully consecrated, not invalidly, but not according to the law of the Church.
     I am not a home aloner.
    We must travel over 300 miles to receive the Sacraments and thus when we must keep most of our Sunday's Holy at our home, it is not by choice. This is the reality which has been forced upon us by the usurpations of the conciliar Church and the suppression of the mind and will of Christ's true Catholic Church, and the lack of itinerant priest's who would travel to far distant places as was the case in the ages of Faith.

    Otherwise, I stand by what I have said as being objectively true. It may not accord with this or that sub-group's narratives, but it remains true, all the same, and simply stating it does not imply malice or hatred unless one reads those things into it because it offends their sensibilities.  Many times and objective truth will indeed offend some who just does not want to hear such things said, true or not.

    Quote
    JPaul, this is a forum for TRADITIONAL CATHOLICS.
    Isn't that what I was repeatedly trying to establish when that FishEater fellow was allowed to run amok here spreading his conciliar hogwash about the goodness of the non-Catholic Mass and creating confusion?

    I am a Roman Catholic, an old believer, that is perhaps the most accurate descriptor for me.

    Sorry to have ruffled feathers again.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas - Apostolic Mandate
    « Reply #21 on: May 17, 2017, 10:24:06 PM »
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  • If you're saying that this consecration isn't "normal", then that goes without saying.

    But these are not "normal times". Desperate times call for desperate measures.

    Bishop Zendejas' consecration was as holy, meritorious, called-for, and proper as any other emergency Consecration that's taken place over the past 50 years. It's absolutely the best that MAN can come up with, given the Crisis in the Church.

    If you're arguing that this consecration is somewhat imperfect, I'll grant you that. Any position or action short of the Pope converting back to the True Faith -- a re-marriage of Truth and Authority if you will -- is a distant second, an imperfect or temporary solution.

    But it's the best we (as human beings) can do.

    As I said, it isn't for us humans to fix the Crisis in the Church. All we can do is deal with it. After all, we have to save our souls.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas - Apostolic Mandate
    « Reply #22 on: May 17, 2017, 10:58:12 PM »
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  • If you click the pdf it opens a larger copy and if you click that - a really large copy.
    .
    Thank you. Let's see how this works......
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas - Apostolic Mandate
    « Reply #23 on: May 17, 2017, 11:05:39 PM »
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  • Well, that was a flop.

    One more time..............

    ........................... I don't know what I'm doing wrong. It's either too big or too small.


    OKAY ............ if you go to the first try and hold Control while you press "-" three times, it displays all right.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas - Apostolic Mandate
    « Reply #24 on: May 18, 2017, 06:00:41 AM »
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  • Poche, when are you going to tire of trolling here?

    It's been how many years and you still pretend you have learned nothing of the intricacies of the Crisis in the Church?
    I trust in Jesus and I know that He will bring me through.  

    Offline AJNC

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas - Apostolic Mandate
    « Reply #25 on: May 18, 2017, 09:56:05 AM »
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  • Am I correct in believing that this "Mandate" is the "permission" given to consecrate a bishop to provide the sacraments of Holy Orders and Confirmation?. Is there anything else involved?