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Author Topic: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP  (Read 4335 times)

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Offline Banezian

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Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2020, 10:05:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 25, 2020, 09:43:37 AM
    ^^^ worthless ad hominem

    Correct.  Thuc line bishops and priests were ordained with the Traditional Rite that is know to be valid, whereas the Novus Ordo Rite of Ordination is doubtful.
    Thuc was out of his mind which makes his ordinations/consecrations doubtful. The fact thst he changed his position over and over again( and assisted at the New Mass while claiming to be Traditional) should be enough.
    Every single SSPX/Resistance/SSPV priest I know has said the Thuc line should be avoided. ( at least 5 different priests) Sorry, but you’re ideas don’t hold up when they’re contrary to the views of most non-Thuc clergy
    Indon’t necessarily disagree with you on the New Rite, but the Thuc line is equally as doubtful for different reasons 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #16 on: January 25, 2020, 10:06:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on January 25, 2020, 09:54:56 AM
    Honestly its hard to box him into modern day categories.  Most people who today would seriously entertain doubt that the see is occupied would also have demanded someone like Fr. Hesse get a conditional ordination.

    Yes, as we know, laymen demand many things of priests, because trad laymen, in particular, now believe that they are in charge of the Catholic Faith. Priests are merely the servants of trad laymen, and the priests must do as they are told. It's not much different in the conciliar church, where laymen (and especially laywomen) are in charge of parishes. Some trads want to have the same control. It's very Vatican ll.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #17 on: January 25, 2020, 11:31:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on January 25, 2020, 10:05:49 AM
    Thuc was out of his mind which makes his ordinations/consecrations doubtful. The fact thst he changed his position over and over again( and assisted at the New Mass while claiming to be Traditional) should be enough.
    Every single SSPX/Resistance/SSPV priest I know has said the Thuc line should be avoided. ( at least 5 different priests) Sorry, but you’re ideas don’t hold up when they’re contrary to the views of most non-Thuc clergy
    Indon’t necessarily disagree with you on the New Rite, but the Thuc line is equally as doubtful for different reasons
    I’m much more willing to believe that you are out of your mind than that Archbishop Thuc was out of his.  I have never seen any testimony from an eyewitness that he was mentally impaired.  And there are plenty of witnesses who do testify that he was very intelligent and mentally sharp years after the consecrations.
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #18 on: January 25, 2020, 11:36:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on January 25, 2020, 11:31:53 AM
    I’m much more willing to believe that you are out of your mind than that Archbishop Thuc was out of his.  I have never seen any testimony from an eyewitness that he was mentally impaired.  And there are plenty of witnesses who do testify that he was very intelligent and mentally sharp years after the consecrations.
    Read The Sacred and The Profane
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwig7cjcpJ_nAhWclXIEHc3zCMoQFjAAegQIBRAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.congregationofstpiusv.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F10%2FSacredandProfane.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3bVDq6hLPVdw60Kt5D_35P
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    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #19 on: January 25, 2020, 11:52:48 AM »
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #20 on: January 25, 2020, 11:54:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on January 25, 2020, 11:31:53 AM
    I’m much more willing to believe that you are out of your mind than that Archbishop Thuc was out of his.  I have never seen any testimony from an eyewitness that he was mentally impaired.  And there are plenty of witnesses who do testify that he was very intelligent and mentally sharp years after the consecrations.

    Absolutely.  Besides that, people fail to understand (thanks to some propaganda by Bishop Kelly) that the bar for the mental competence required to validly confect the Sacrament is extremely low.  You basically just have to know who you are and know what you're doing.  There's ZERO proof that he was not, and as a result the presumption is clearly that he was competent to perform the consecrations.  Bishop Kelly DELIBERATELY (as Derksen demonstrated) fanned the flames of negative doubt.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #21 on: January 25, 2020, 11:59:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on January 25, 2020, 10:05:49 AM
    The fact thst he changed his position over and over again( and assisted at the New Mass while claiming to be Traditional) should be enough.

    pffff.  That's not NEARLY "enough".  To be imprudent or erratic has nothing to do with whether or not one knows what he's doing when consecrating.  This is ridiculous.

    There's MUCH more evidence that +Mendez was out of his mind.  But even there insufficient evidence to override the presumption of validity.

    Bishop Kelly has much to answer for before God for his mendacious propaganda.
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #22 on: January 25, 2020, 12:08:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 25, 2020, 11:59:58 AM
    pffff.  That's not NEARLY "enough".  To be imprudent or erratic has nothing to do with whether or not one knows what he's doing when consecrating.  This is ridiculous.

    There's MUCH more evidence that +Mendez was out of his mind.  But even there insufficient evidence to override the presumption of validity.

    Bishop Kelly has much to answer for before God for his mendacious propaganda.
    Cekada and the others took the same position on the Thuc line  as Kelly and then changed later on. If you want to take your chances with Thuc clergy, go ahead( although I found it odd given that I seem to recall you saying you used to work with SSPV. Change of position on this question?)
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    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #23 on: January 26, 2020, 05:35:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on January 25, 2020, 12:08:15 PM
    Cekada and the others took the same position on the Thuc line  as Kelly and then changed later on. If you want to take your chances with Thuc clergy, go ahead( although I found it odd given that I seem to recall you saying you used to work with SSPV. Change of position on this question?)
    At least Father Cekada was humble enough to admit he was wrong years ago.
    Allow yourself just a short escape from your years (?) of anti Thuc indoctrination and I can assure you, if you are just a little bit reasonable, that if you read Mario Derksen’s study, you will come to the realization that the SSPV’s position is unequivocally wrong. In fact, what you will find is if you use the same criteria Bishop Kelly applies to the Thuc line and apply it to the Mendez line, you will see that the Thuc line is far more credible when it comes to validity. 
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    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #24 on: January 26, 2020, 06:07:30 PM »
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    • Mario Derksen’s study: http://thucbishops.com/
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #25 on: January 26, 2020, 06:32:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on January 26, 2020, 05:35:15 PM
     if you use the same criteria Bishop Kelly applies to the Thuc line and apply it to the Mendez line, you will see that the Thuc line is far more credible when it comes to validity.
    Here's the main thing I don't get about this debate.

    The argument from the pro Thuc people goes like this

    1. If the Thuc line is doubtful, the Mendez line is also doubtful.

    2. But the Mendez line is not doubtful

    Conc. Therefore the Thuc line is not doubtful

    But why couldn't one also reason it the other way.

    1. If the Thuc line is doubtful than the Mendez line is also doubtful.

    2. The Thuc line is doubtful

    Conc. Therefore the Mendez line is also doubtful

    This also seems to follow the logical rules.  Why couldn't this argument be the correct one?
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    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Father Gregory Hesse, RIP
    « Reply #26 on: January 26, 2020, 06:47:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on January 26, 2020, 06:32:40 PM
    Here's the main thing I don't get about this debate.

    The argument from the pro Thuc people goes like this

    1. If the Thuc line is doubtful, the Mendez line is also doubtful.

    2. But the Mendez line is not doubtful

    Conc. Therefore the Thuc line is not doubtful

    But why couldn't one also reason it the other way.

    1. If the Thuc line is doubtful than the Mendez line is also doubtful.

    2. The Thuc line is doubtful

    Conc. Therefore the Mendez line is also doubtful

    This also seems to follow the logical rules.  Why couldn't this argument be the correct one?
    In both cases there are only negative doubts, thus you must accept both as valid. Only when there is a positive doubt you can presume invalidity. 
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