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Author Topic: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"  (Read 16082 times)

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Offline Merry

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Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2019, 09:44:23 AM »
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  • Post-conversion Newman on the creation of our first parents:
    I was in a "Catholic" religious goods store two days ago, and found Newman stuff all over the place.  The "New" New Church hero!  He is thoroughly embraced and is useable by and useful for them.  
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
    « Reply #46 on: October 28, 2019, 12:38:48 PM »
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  • Quote
    Sorry for the typos, Holly.
     Didn’t mean to tear your world apart.
     It will all be better tomorrow.
     But if not, you can always cry to the Bishop again like a little girl.
     I’m sure he has nothing better to do than respond to your complaints!

    So that other members can put Sean’s comment above in context: Bp. W. , apparently, wrote a forward to SJ’s new book. I don’t know this for certain, because I have not purchased a copy, nor do I plan to frankly. I think I've read the person who wrote it, and that is quite enough for me.

    When I saw how Sean can behave online, I thought, maybe, it might be wise to report some of his bizarre behavior to the bishop, with whom we've had something of a personal acquaintance over the years. This I did, explaining to H.E. that I cared nothing about Sean’s insults directed against me and others. I was only concerned for the bishop and his reputation. Did he wish to have a continuing association with a collaborator(?) like SJ under the circuмstances? If so, it was his call. I felt I had merely done my duty in informing him, and supplying a tidbit of Sean's posting excesses.

    I heard from the bishop shortly thereafter. He emailed, in part, “You may just be hearing from him.“ Well, SJ did post an apology on CI, not only to me, but a few other forum members, as well. I think it’s obvious that this apology was inspired by H.E. 

    Sean’s online behavior may simply be a sign of youthful exuberance and immaturity, I don’t know. But this much seems apparent: SJ can act pretty unhinged at times. One might even speculate  that there may be a bit of a mental or emotional problem here, and that some kind of anger management therapy might not be a bad idea.

    In any case, he seems to have hijacked large portions of CI topics. And Matthew, who has been known to discipline, even ban, certain posters in the past, sits by and does nothing, or says nothing. He just steps aside and let’s it all go on. It makes one wonder.





    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
    « Reply #47 on: October 28, 2019, 01:19:18 PM »
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  • So that other members can put Sean’s comment above in context: Bp. W. , apparently, wrote a forward to SJ’s new book. I don’t know this for certain, because I have not purchased a copy, nor do I plan to frankly. I think I've read the person who wrote it, and that is quite enough for me.

    When I saw how Sean can behave online, I thought, maybe, it might be wise to report some of his bizarre behavior to the bishop, with whom we've had something of a personal acquaintance over the years. This I did, explaining to H.E. that I cared nothing about Sean’s insults directed against me and others. I was only concerned for the bishop and his reputation. Did he wish to have a continuing association with a collaborator(?) like SJ under the circuмstances? If so, it was his call. I felt I had merely done my duty in informing him, and supplying a tidbit of Sean's posting excesses.

    I heard from the bishop shortly thereafter. He emailed, in part, “You may just be hearing from him.“ Well, SJ did post an apology on CI, not only to me, but a few other forum members, as well. I think it’s obvious that this apology was inspired by H.E.  

    Sean’s online behavior may simply be a sign of youthful exuberance and immaturity, I don’t know. But this much seems apparent: SJ can act pretty unhinged at times. One might even speculate  that there may be a bit of a mental or emotional problem here, and that some kind of anger management therapy might not be a bad idea.

    In any case, he seems to have hijacked large portions of CI topics. And Matthew, who has been known to discipline, even ban, certain posters in the past, sits by and does nothing, or says nothing. He just steps aside and let’s it all go on. It makes one wonder.

    Sorry Holly, but if you want to brawl, I’m gonna brawl.

    Give some, get some.  Get it?

    If you can’t take the heat, you should learn to keep your mouth shut, instead of cocking off, they crying when you get hit back, and playing the victim.

    :baby:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
    « Reply #48 on: October 28, 2019, 01:25:06 PM »
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  • I'm still waiting for someone who diminishes or downplays the importance of Holy Communion for obtaining the grace of final perseverance and securing eternal life to explain to me why these quotes from the Pope are mistaken, or not applicable to our times: 

    His Holiness Pope St. Pius X: "These words declare plainly enough the wish of the Church that all Christians should be daily nourished by this heavenly banquet and should derive therefrom more abundant fruit for their sanctification." Link

    Doctor of the Church St. Alphonsus: "The Communion is called the bread of heaven; because as the body cannot live without earthly food, so the soul cannot live without this celestial bread. 

    [Our Lord Jesus Christ]: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you (John, vi, 54).

    But on the other hand, to those who frequently eat this bread, is promised eternal life. If any man eat of this bread he shall live forever (John, vi, 52). Hence the Council of Trent calls the Communion a medicine which delivers us from venial, and preserves us from mortal sins (Sess. 13, cap. 2)." Link

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
    « Reply #49 on: October 28, 2019, 01:40:00 PM »
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  • I'm still waiting for someone who diminishes or downplays the importance of Holy Communion for obtaining the grace of final perseverance and securing eternal life to explain to me why these quotes from the Pope are mistaken, or not applicable to our times:

    His Holiness Pope St. Pius X: "These words declare plainly enough the wish of the Church that all Christians should be daily nourished by this heavenly banquet and should derive therefrom more abundant fruit for their sanctification." Link

    Doctor of the Church St. Alphonsus: "The Communion is called the bread of heaven; because as the body cannot live without earthly food, so the soul cannot live without this celestial bread.

    [Our Lord Jesus Christ]: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you (John, vi, 54).

    But on the other hand, to those who frequently eat this bread, is promised eternal life. If any man eat of this bread he shall live forever (John, vi, 52). Hence the Council of Trent calls the Communion a medicine which delivers us from venial, and preserves us from mortal sins (Sess. 13, cap. 2)." Link
    Not applicable. The conciliar church's universal and peaceful acceptance (UA or UPA) of the sacrilegious "communion in the hand" (CITH) makes the recipient who takes CITH, instantly improperly disposed Ex opere operato, which makes the above quotes not applicable (NA or N/A).  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
    « Reply #50 on: October 28, 2019, 01:46:01 PM »
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  • Firstly, we are speaking of SSPX Masses. Is the Resistance now starting to claim the manifest falsehood that the SSPX is giving Holy Communion in the hand? Or if you are speaking only of the mainstream Church, even mainstream Prelates do not all accept Holy Communion in the hand. At any rate, no SSPX Bishop or Priest accepts or has ever accepted that, or will distribute Our Lord like that.

    The widespread practice of Catholics receiving communion in the hand while standing up is part of Satan’s attack on the Church, the head of the Vatican department dealing with liturgy has said.
    In the preface to a book on the subject, Cardinal Robert Sarah lamented the lack of reverence for the Blessed Sacrament, saying this leads to belief in “errors” on the matter.
    “The most insidious diabolical attack consists in trying to extinguish faith in the Eucharist, sowing errors and favouring an unsuitable manner of receiving it,” the cardinal wrote.
    “Truly the war between Michael and his Angels on one side, and Lucifer on the other, continues in the heart of the faithful: Satan’s target is the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Real Presence of Jesus in the consecrated host.
    “Why do we insist on communicating standing in the hand? Why this attitude of lack of submission to the signs of God?
    “[Receiving kneeling and on the tongue] is much more suited to the sacrament itself. I hope there can be a rediscovery and promotion of the beauty and pastoral value of this manner. In my opinion and judgment, this is an important question on which the church today must reflect. This is a further act of adoration and love that each of us can offer to Jesus Christ.”

    https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2018/02/23/cardinal-sarah-communion-in-the-hand-part-of-diabolical-attack-on-eucharist/

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
    « Reply #51 on: October 28, 2019, 01:52:29 PM »
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  • Quote
    One might even speculate  that there may be a bit of a mental or emotional problem here, and that some kind of anger management therapy might not be a bad idea.
    Sean definitely has anger issues.  It's a shame because he's very intelligent.  But his inclination to interpret everything as a fight-to-the-death, ruins his opportunities to instruct and impart his knowledge.  I'll continue to pray for him.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
    « Reply #52 on: October 28, 2019, 02:04:32 PM »
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  • Sean definitely has anger issues.  It's a shame because he's very intelligent.  But his inclination to interpret everything as a fight-to-the-death, ruins his opportunities to instruct and impart his knowledge.  I'll continue to pray for him.
    And I shall pray for you.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
    « Reply #53 on: October 28, 2019, 02:14:43 PM »
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  • Firstly, we are speaking of SSPX Masses. Is the Resistance now starting to claim the manifest falsehood that the SSPX is giving Holy Communion in the hand? Or if you are speaking only of the mainstream Church, even mainstream Prelates do not all accept Holy Communion in the hand. At any rate, no SSPX Bishop or Priest accepts or has ever accepted that, or will distribute Our Lord like that.
    Sorry, wrong thread. Sean was pushing Trent's teachings as being applicable to newchurch communions in other thread. Carry on.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
    « Reply #54 on: October 28, 2019, 05:50:09 PM »
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  • Sorry, wrong thread. Sean was pushing Trent's teachings as being applicable to newchurch communions in other thread. Carry on.

    Ok. But I agree with Sean (and +ABL, +BF, +BW) on Trent's teaching and its applicability. Grace always passes when a valid Holy Communion is dispensed to well-disposed Catholics. Btw, an individual cannot be "improperly disposed Ex opere operato"; which means "improperly disposed by the work worked". It is only Sacraments, not persons, who can produce effects or confer grace "by the work worked". Perhaps you meant to say, he would be poorly disposed by the work of the working one, which would be "ex opere operantis".

    I see it like this, if a Catholic was baptized with only the words "I baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", without doubt he would receive the graces of a valid Sacrament. He would not, however, receive the full graces of the complete Sacrament when an Integral Baptism - i.e. Holy Baptism administered according to the complete traditional rite in the Rituale Romanum - is performed, and therefore those many accompanying graces that surround the words of the form strictly necessary for validity would be lost. Thus, that person would receive much lesser graces. For that reason, theology distinguishes "validity" and "integrity" of a rite.

    The new rites are not integral rites, but rather - like the new rite of exorcism which Rome's own best exorcists admit is terribly weak and ineffective - truncated, partial, watered-down rites for confecting the Sacraments. In addition to that, if he did not kneel etc, that would be an additional complication. A Traditional Priest will always offer the full, integral, true Mass, and distribute Holy Communion only those who are kneeling in adoration. I'm sure neither Bp. Williamson nor Sean is suggesting doing otherwise, but simply making a statement of the graces those at the NOM can receive, if they really desire to adore and receive Our Lord in Holy Communion.

    ETA: Reference to - letter of +ABL dated May 9 1980 "Those who feel themselves obliged in conscience to assist at the New Mass on Sunday can fulfil their Sunday obligation. But one cannot accuse a person of a grave fault because he prefers not to assist at Mass on Sunday rather than assist at the New Mass."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
    « Reply #55 on: October 28, 2019, 06:35:49 PM »
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  • I'm still waiting for someone who diminishes or downplays the importance of Holy Communion for obtaining the grace of final perseverance and securing eternal life to explain to me why these quotes from the Pope are mistaken, or not applicable to our times:

    Nobody's rejecting the principle.  But it is not permitted to receive even valid Communion, except in danger of death, under certain circuмstances.  So, for instance, one may not receive Holy Communion from an Orthodox church ... except in danger of death.  Similarly, one should not participate in sacrilegeous rites.  So, for instance, would it be permitted to receive Communion at a Black Mass?  So you are misapplying the principle.  What's at issue is not the graces received from Holy Communion in the abstract.

    Now, I do not believe that SSPX Masses are in this category, but the principle is not absolute.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
    « Reply #56 on: October 29, 2019, 06:06:40 AM »
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  • Ok. But I agree with Sean (and +ABL, +BF, +BW) on Trent's teaching and its applicability. Grace always passes when a valid Holy Communion is dispensed to well-disposed Catholics. Btw, an individual cannot be "improperly disposed Ex opere operato"; which means "improperly disposed by the work worked". It is only Sacraments, not persons, who can produce effects or confer grace "by the work worked". Perhaps you meant to say, he would be poorly disposed by the work of the working one, which would be "ex opere operantis".
    No XS, I meant what I said. The work worked, is the desecration, it is the act of CITH itself. CITH itself is the act, CITH is the work worked.

    In the Catholic Church, non-consecrated fingers (or palms/hands) under pain of sacrilege are not permitted to touch the consecrated host except in an extreme emergency. In the conciliar church, CITH is the norm, CITH (minus a very few) is the universally accepted method of receiving communion.  

    The presumed well disposed lay person desecrates the host, that is, commits a sacrilege during CITH when he touches the host, which means that the supposedly well disposed person, by touching the host, receives the host while in mortal sin, which makes reception of the host another sacrilege.

    This means the universally accepted method of receiving communion in the conciliar church does not confer grace at all but instead is a sacrilege.  

    This of course presumes that the host was validly consecrated, which we can safely say that it's validity itself is doubtful because we *must* see this issue *in the context* of the total redefinition and reconstitution of the Church as was set in motion at V2. We must not isolate this issue so as to view it as if Trent would have approved the new "mass" itself.
    There is absolutely zero issue whatsoever *when it is taken out of context*, when it is removed from it's origins and surroundings.  

    We must not confuse two separate items. Yes, if valid, the sacrament confers grace to one properly disposed, no one denies that so I don't know why that keeps being brought up. NO consecration is one thing, CITH is a sacrilege and is another and has nothing to do with the validity of the sacrament.

    When one attends the newchurch service and convinces themself  of a valid consecration, how is it that one presumes the proper disposition for communion while seeing others receiving CITH, are they not also guilty by their participation in the sin? Even if they want to receive communion on their tongue, is not their participation alone also a mortal sin? Is not their silence to be understood as consent to everyone else taking CITH?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline St.Patrick

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    Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
    « Reply #57 on: October 29, 2019, 09:58:32 AM »
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  • Nobody's rejecting the principle.  But it is not permitted to receive even valid Communion, except in danger of death, under certain circuмstances.  So, for instance, one may not receive Holy Communion from an Orthodox church ... except in danger of death.  Similarly, one should not participate in sacrilegeous rites.  So, for instance, would it be permitted to receive Communion at a Black Mass?  So you are misapplying the principle.  What's at issue is not the graces received from Holy Communion in the abstract.

    Now, I do not believe that SSPX Masses are in this category, but the principle is not absolute.

    Why do you think the SSPX is not in this category?

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
    « Reply #58 on: October 29, 2019, 11:24:54 AM »
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  • Why do you think the SSPX is not in this category?
    The rite is valid and legal and in no way defective, stripped-down or protestantised. And the priest's orders are undoubtedly valid. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: "No honest Catholic should attend an SSPX Mass"
    « Reply #59 on: October 29, 2019, 11:52:08 AM »
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  • The rite is valid and legal and in no way defective, stripped-down or protestantised. And the priest's orders are undoubtedly valid.

    That, and the SSPX do profess the Catholic faith ... unlike these other groups.

    So it's still in the realm of prudential judgment regarding whether any of their attitudes or practices might cause harm to your faith.  I don't believe that most SSPX chapels have crossed that line yet.