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Author Topic: "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?  (Read 3703 times)

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Offline awkwardcustomer

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"Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
« on: September 24, 2014, 06:01:15 AM »
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  • Interesting.

    I had been led to believe that the Extraordinary Magisterium, also known as the Solemn Magisterium, referred to the pope teaching either ex Cathedra, or in union with an ecuмenical Council.

    And that the Ordinary Universal Magisterium referred to the pope teaching in union with the bishops of the world.

    And that all three are infallible organs of the Church,, whereas the Ordinary (non universal) magisterium is not infallible.

    But if the term 'Extraordinary Magisterium' is confusing, and deliberately so, them let us get the terminology right.  I wish I could find the article which backs up your point, that claiming infallibility for only the Solemn (or Extraordinary) Magisterium was a ploy by the modernists to render teachings not Solemnly defined as open to question.

    Isn't it strange that so many Traditionalists use the same arguments as the modernists, and by so doing deny the infallibility of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium?


    Offline PG

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    "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
    « Reply #1 on: September 24, 2014, 11:42:14 PM »
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  • I am hesitant to discuss this because I simply have not done enough research into dogma and infallibility to have confidence(I have read the canons of the councils, but only once, and with no emphasis for this).  However, it is looming on my list of things to do, and this is convenient.

    I understand that the ordinary magisterium is infallible when it is universal(always and everywhere taught).  The pope always has this ordinary magisterium(infallibility), but bishops only have access to it within their diocese.  Ordinary magisterium(whether pope or bishop) can be fallible if it goes against what has always and everywhere been taught.  

    I understand that Extra ordinary magisterium is when the pope is with(not necessarily physically) the bishops and teaches(the pope teaches).  It is special, but at the same time it is nothing special(bishops are outside of their diocese).  Also, it seems reasonable to me that extra ordinary teaching(ultimately ordinary) can be fallible as well if it goes against universal teaching.

    I am led to believe that extra ordinary/solemn/ex cathedra teaching must be understood within the context of the pronouncement/what is pronounced.  And, context can be a demanding concept(2000 year history, original sin, ambiguity, language barriers, wolves).  It is expansive.  This is why we have the Holy Ghost to care for us.  However, sometimes, we are not deserving.  Therefore, reaching conclusions on what is infallible can be challenging(some teachings, but certainly not all), and, deciding the finer points is perhaps best left undecided/as to their proximity.  Regardless, it falls into the care of theologians, cardinals, and the "roman" curia.  And, that is what we should be concerned about.














    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Online cassini

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    "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
    « Reply #2 on: September 25, 2014, 05:53:10 AM »
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  • Yes, very interesting, a subject being discussed in the laterst chapter of THE EARTHMOVERS in the resistance movements slot.

    Perhaps no other matter in Catholic history has come under the 'infallible' microscope like the anti-Copernican decree of Pope Paul V in 1616. If ever the subject matter of infallibility has been taken apart like a motor-engine into all its bits they are to be found in the 350 year-old Galileo affair. Here is the first case where all the contradictions to infallibility came to the fore. Indeed the rejection of popes in 1741, 1820 and 1835 of the 1616 decree led some to reject the dogma of infallibility of Vatican I as already proven false. one of these was a Fr Roberts who explained his position like this:

    ` ‘If, then, the Pope said in effect that heliocentrism was a heresy, he said in effect that it was not only de fide, but de fide Catholicâ, that it was false; that it was not only de fide, but de fide Catholicâ, that its contradictory was true. In what capacity he spoke, and whether he meant what he said, are further questions, but it is a great point to have it conceded that he did in effect declare heliocentrism to be a “heresy.” But we also learn from the statement of a Pontifical Congregation [1633 and 1820] that the utterance was a definition, i.e. a final authoritative judgment. We are brought, therefore, to the conclusion that the Pope did in fact publish, through the Congregation of the Index, a definition of faith. Now, suppose for a moment that he did so ex cathedrâ, would it follow that the definition was of the same kind as that by which Pius IX decided the question of the Immaculate Conception? And ought it to have been promulgated with like emphasis and solemnity? Assuredly not. The Immaculate Conception definition of the Bull “Ineffabilis” was put forward to make that of Catholic faith which confessedly was not so before. Up to the 8th of December 1854 it was, by the force of Bulls that had not been formally revoked, excommunication to call the denial of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception heresy, or even, if I mistake not, to say that those who impugned it were guilty of grave sin. Since that date, according to the Bull, any one who ventures to think that the doctrine has not been revealed by God, ipso facto, makes shipwreck of his faith, and cuts himself off from the unity of the Church. Clearly the definition was of the nature of a new doctrinal law, and therefore needed a promulgation that would challenge the attention of all Christians. But not every Pontifical definition ex cathedrâ ascribing heresy or repugnancy to Scripture to dissentients is a definition of faith in this sense. By far the greater number are issued, not to generate any fresh obligation of faith, but to protect and vindicate one that already exists; and to this class obviously belong ex cathedrâ censures of books, and propositions, defined as heretical. The mode of publishing these judgments will vary of course with circuмstances, but from their nature there is no reason for their being put forward with any greater emphasis and solemnity than the evil to be met requires. Why, then, should they not occasionally be issued through one of the Congregations the Pope has erected to assist him in discharging his functions as guardian of the faith? And why should such a mode of publication prejudice their infallibility, if they are certainly Papal decisions, and are known to be such?’ ---- Rev. William W. Roberts: The Pontifical Decrees against the Earth’s Movement and the Ultramontane Defence of them, Parker and Company, London, 1870, revised 1885, p.22.

    Now here is my understanding of infallibility. An 'extraordinary' infallibility is used to define a NEW DOGMA.
    The ordinary magisterium is used to protect and judge on matters that are already matters of faith and morals.

    ‘The Roman Pontiffs, moreover, according to the condition of the times and affairs advised, sometimes by calling ecuмenical councils… sometimes by particular synods, sometimes by employing other helps which divine providence supplied, have defined that those matters must be held which with God’s help they have recognised as in agreement with Sacred Scripture and apostolic tradition. For, the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine, but that by His help they might guard sacredly the revelation transmitted through the apostles and the deposit of faith, and might forcefully set it out…’ --- Vatican I (1869-1870) (Denz. 1836.)

    Vatican II popes therefor cannot use their infallible perogative to deny previous teachings.

    Offline awkwardcustomer

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    "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
    « Reply #3 on: September 25, 2014, 06:17:34 AM »
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  • + PG + said,
    Quote

    I understand that the ordinary magisterium is infallible when it is universal(always and everywhere taught). The pope always has this ordinary magisterium(infallibility), but bishops only have access to it within their diocese. Ordinary magisterium(whether pope or bishop) can be fallible if it goes against what has always and everywhere been taught.


    As I understand it, the Ordinary Universal Magisterium is infallible, full stop, and with no conditions attached.  The 'Universal' part does not refer to "always and everywhere taught".  Instead it refers to the bishops of the world, that is, bishops who are alive.

    Therefore, if the pope teaches in union with the bishops of the world, the bishops who are alive, then that teaching is protected by the infallibility of the OUM.  That teaching is guaranteed by Heaven to be free of error.

     

    Offline awkwardcustomer

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    "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
    « Reply #4 on: September 25, 2014, 06:31:46 AM »
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  • cassini said,
    Quote

    Now here is my understanding of infallibility. An 'extraordinary' infallibility is used to define a NEW DOGMA.
    The ordinary magisterium is used to protect and judge on matters that are already matters of faith and morals.


    There seem to be as many definitions of infallibility as there are Traditionalists. Confusion reigns.  And the entire SSPX v Sedevacantist argument stems from this confusion.  

    Surely there can be no conditions attached to infallibility, which simply means that a teaching is guaranteed by Heaven to be free of error.  If the pope and the living bishops of the world teach something together, then that teaching is infallible, it is guaranteed by Heaven to be free of error, because the pope and the living bishops of the world together constitute the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.

    It may well be that a sun-centered solar system is heretical.  We shall find out eventually.  If it is, and the solar system turns out to be Earth-centered, then we will be able to cite the adoption of heliocentrism as an early example of Catholic accomodation to the world.  


    Offline PG

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    "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
    « Reply #5 on: September 25, 2014, 02:11:56 PM »
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  • I do not understand that when bishops and pope are gathered it becomes automatically infallible.  I see that as a type of neo-collegiality that takes away from papal infallibility, while suggesting a type of impeccability.  Bishops are simply not in their dioceses, and popes can and do teach that which is not infallible, and can in my opinion teach that which is fallible.  Extra ordinary seems to me to be a literary device, and I see no reason to oppose that.  True ecuмenism/ecuмenical councils are unique, desired, and special("extra"), with in normal times a greater chance of providing orthodox teaching.  But, the infallibility still derives from the ordinary magisterium of the Pope.

    vatican I session 4 ch. 3 -  numbers 8 and 9 concerning ecuмenical council vs papal supremacy(syllogism required)

    And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecuмenical council "as if this were an authority superior to the Roman pontiff".

    So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this
    not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.





    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline PG

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    "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
    « Reply #6 on: September 25, 2014, 02:25:58 PM »
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  • awkwardcustomer - "it is guaranteed by Heaven to be free of error, because the pope and the living bishops of the world together constitute the Ordinary Universal Magisterium."

    BTW +Mendez got sick on his way to the council and missed the first session.  He went to return for the 2nd session and observed the madness/heresy, and chose not to participate.  He didn't sign any of the docuмents.  All of the other bishops did sign the docuмents.
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline PG

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    "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
    « Reply #7 on: September 25, 2014, 02:51:24 PM »
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  • As far as dogmatic context(its understanding) is concerned, here is Vatican I.

    4 - on faith an reason(syllogism required)

    If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the church which is different from that which the church has understood and understands:  let him be anathema.

    BTW I think I am going to check out of this topic, it is just so enormous. It has been helpful participating, but I am just not pleased.  So much needs to be considered.  

    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline PG

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    "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
    « Reply #8 on: September 25, 2014, 03:04:58 PM »
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  • BTW what I have said about possible papal fallibility makes more sense when you consider that I am doubtful that a pope can be formally deposed by anyone other than by a future pope.  As far as I can tell, these V2 elections should be recognized, however these pope's acts are null and void.  They are a punishment that we deserve, and it should bring about a fix/improvement.
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline PG

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    "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
    « Reply #9 on: September 25, 2014, 04:19:23 PM »
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  • Awkward - your post "Surely there can be no conditions attached to infallibility, which simply means that a teaching is guaranteed by Heaven to be free of error.  If the pope and the living bishops of the world teach something together, then that teaching is infallible, it is guaranteed by Heaven to be free of error, because the pope and the living bishops of the world together constitute the Ordinary Universal Magisterium."

    Awkward - infallibility means more than simply free from error.  It means "irreformable".  

    "we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
    in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,  that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

    The key words/sections in this in my opinion are - teach and "define") - "that" infallility - and - "therefore" such definitions are "irreformable".  




    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline PG

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    "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
    « Reply #10 on: September 25, 2014, 04:42:09 PM »
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  • To support my very first post about how identifying infallible/irreformable teaching can be challenging.  Take a look at this vatican I decree.

    If anyone says that in divine revelation there are contained no true mysteries properly so-called, but that all the dogmas of the faith can be understood and demonstrated by properly trained reason from natural principles:  let him be anathema.

    Lepantoagain - sorry to hijack thread, your first post about extra ordinary magisterium not being in our vocabulary until the nineteenth century is interesting.  Do you know when the word "solemn" as applied to the magisterium came about?  I
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline awkwardcustomer

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    "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
    « Reply #11 on: September 26, 2014, 05:09:34 AM »
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  • + PG + said
    Quote

    Awkward - infallibility means more than simply free from error. It means "irreformable".


    Here is the definition of infallibility from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

    "In general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals."

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm


    Offline Cantarella

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    "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
    « Reply #12 on: September 26, 2014, 11:28:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lepanto Again
    Quote from: awkwardcustomer
    Interesting.

    I had been led to believe that the Extraordinary Magisterium, also known as the Solemn Magisterium, referred to the pope teaching either ex Cathedra, or in union with an ecuмenical Council.

    And that the Ordinary Universal Magisterium referred to the pope teaching in union with the bishops of the world.

    And that all three are infallible organs of the Church,, whereas the Ordinary (non universal) magisterium is not infallible.

    But if the term 'Extraordinary Magisterium' is confusing, and deliberately so, them let us get the terminology right.  I wish I could find the article which backs up your point, that claiming infallibility for only the Solemn (or Extraordinary) Magisterium was a ploy by the modernists to render teachings not Solemnly defined as open to question.

    Isn't it strange that so many Traditionalists use the same arguments as the modernists, and by so doing deny the infallibility of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium?


    We have this book at home but it is good that it is also available online! Take a look at this for starters: The Vatican Council and its definitions

    Pages 112-120 are very enlightening. However, reading the entire book is best. He also mentions the Magisterium in this section. However, in reviewing this one website's links to these books it is disturbing that the so called "Extraordinary" Magisterium has never been called such. I smell a rotten fish.

    Also, take a look at his: Evidences of Catholicity  The top of page 461 about the belief of Gallicanism. . .  (again, scrolling back and reading the entire chapter really helps open one's eyes.).



    Thank you for such good references. Eager to read now. :reading:
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline PG

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    "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
    « Reply #13 on: September 26, 2014, 01:02:54 PM »
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  • lepantoagain - I take your word for it.  If extra ordinary were no such thing prior to two hundred years ago, it would not affect how I understand the magisterium to work.  So, I am not suspicious of it, especially considering that you suspect it has been applied to give catholics the wrong impression about the magisterium and papal infallibility.  That to me is believable, given our current situation.  My question is about the word "solemn".  But, if you do not have an answer, that is alright.   :cheers:

    Awkward -  Sorry if I sounded dogmatic, it wasn't my intention.  I agree with you that there are unfortunately as many understandings about magisterium as there are trads.   Also, I recall a story of how Pius X was reading the catholic encylopedia and remarked of it - "modernism"!    The lay it all on the table style of your first post made this conversation very welcoming to me, and I followed suit.  None of what I have posted is set in stone for me, but it is somewhat relevant being that lepantoagain was also critizing +Williamsons understanding of the magisterium.  And, in my opinion, if understanding of one part of it is off, it is likely that the whole is as well.
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline awkwardcustomer

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    "Extra Ordinary" Magisterium?
    « Reply #14 on: September 27, 2014, 03:56:14 AM »
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  • + PG +
    Quote

    I agree with you that there are unfortunately as many understandings about magisterium as there are trads. Also, I recall a story of how Pius X was reading the catholic encylopedia and remarked of it - "modernism"!


    I wasn't aware of this anecdote regarding Pope Pius X and the catholic encyclopedia.  Are you saying that the catholic encyclopedia is not a reliable source?  And that it is defective in its definition of infallibility as being a divine guarantee that a teaching is free of error?

    If so, then can you or anyone else provide an authoritative definition of infallibility? Surely this is a serious situation, if Catholics, and not just Traditionalists, cannot provide this.  For my part, I shall be taking to Google in my search for an alternative source.