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Author Topic: "As We Are"  (Read 5341 times)

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Offline cebu

"As We Are"
« on: April 10, 2021, 09:18:47 AM »
I often wonder how SSPX cultists react to Sean Johnson's excellent book, "As We Are". Have any of them ever seriously tried to counter what Sean charges the SSPX with and all the changes they have made. Or do they bury their heads because they cannot make any coherent response. Has anyone on CI come across anyone trying to make a response. What about that smug lawyer man, John McFarland ?  
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: "As We Are"
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2021, 10:51:01 AM »
Hi Cebu-

Thanks for the kind words.

In answer to your questions, it has been my experience that there are three primary responses within the SSPX camp:

The first group is a minority position similar to Xavier Sem, which desires to rebut and/or deny any charges of change, compromise, or contradiction.  This group wants to rescue, disguise, and justify the ralliement, and might encompass 5-15% of SSPXers.

The second, slightly larger group (perhaps 20-30% of SSPXers?) are largely comprised of 18-35 year-olds, who are today 2nd and 3rd generation SSPXers, and are largely ignorant of the changes because of their insular SSPX socialization (eg., no Internet, SSPX schools, SSPX friends, SSPX chapel life, etc.).  Normally that socialization is a good thing, but an unfortunate side effect of it is that a questioning or dissenting voice is rarely heard (and if it is heard, usually elicits defensive responses and ostracism).

The third group, by far the largest, are 2nd and 3rd generation SSPXers who do in fact perceive the changes, unlike the first and second groups, but laud them as skillful and necessary adaptations in response to new circuмstances.  “We can’t be 1988’ers anymore.”  This group won’t come right out and say we need to compromise to get justice, but their position fully implies it, and their support of +Fellay proved it.  Canonical approval is what they have wanted most all along (the source of the problem/weakness), and this is what accounts for their visceral reactions to Resistance whistle blowers (whom they perceive as threatening their ralliement).

As for the clergy, it seems they have adopted the old Roman strategy of death by silence.  Let the book drift quietly into obscurity, and five years from now, nobody will remember it existed.  
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Offline Matthew

  • Mod
Re: "As We Are"
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2021, 01:23:23 PM »
Sean, I'm a bit confused -- in your description of "the 3 types of SSPXers", you describe BOTH the 2nd and 3rd categories as "2nd and 3rd generation SSPXers". Are categories #2 and #3 really both from the same generations? Just wondering if there were any typos there.

I would add another group -- FIRST GENERATION SSPXers, mostly Baby Boomers, who have so much invested in the SSPX (time, youth, money over decades of putting money in the collection) they are suffering from the Sunk Cost fallacy -- they've invested so much, they're committed, even if the outlook today for the SSPX is objectively hopeless. Also, they're getting old and tired, and have no energy for "The Fight" (Tradition) -- according to Boomer culture, they have worked hard all their life, and by gum they DESERVE an easy, laid-back retirement for their Autumn years. "I worked hard to build up this church, and by gum, I'm gonna enjoy it!" They are frequently found saying things like, "I ain't goin' back to the catacombs! I paid my dues back in the 70's. We did the garage Masses, basement Masses, hotel Masses."

Baby Boomers are the same way (entitled) when it comes to having worked hard, "done their time" and therefore "deserve" a period of leisure and retirement in the work world as well. They're just extending this particular cultural belief/value to the realm of Church/religious practice. It actually makes sense, from their perspective.

But don't get me started on the Boomers. hahaha  I must point out again, there are many good Boomers, including on CathInfo. Please don't take it personally, Boomers out there. But when I draw big-picture patterns about the whole generation, you gotta admit I'm spot on. And no, it's not a universal belief/value that by working hard from 18-60 you "deserve" any kind of ease or retirement in this life. Individualistic "retirement", where you are well-off for a couple decades before death, completely independent, not needing children-nuns-charity-or anyone to take care of you, living a life of travel, pleasure and leisure is a recent, American phenomenon that only existed since the US Gov't started the welfare state and "safety net" programs simultaneously in the 1960's. Even the Boomers didn't pay in enough to justify what they're going to get out of the system. So yes, it's basically an entitlement program, like food stamps or other welfare. It's just that the Boomers maybe paid in 20-40% of what they're getting out. But Social Security is an insolvent ponzi scheme, and that's a fact.
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: "As We Are"
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2021, 01:49:25 PM »
Quote from: Matthew on April 10, 2021, 01:23:23 PM
Sean, I'm a bit confused -- in your description of "the 3 types of SSPXers", you describe BOTH the 2nd and 3rd categories as "2nd and 3rd generation SSPXers". Are categories #2 and #3 really both from the same generations? Just wondering if there were any typos there.

I would add another group -- FIRST GENERATION SSPXers, mostly Baby Boomers, who have so much invested in the SSPX (time, youth, money over decades of putting money in the collection) they are suffering from the Sunk Cost fallacy -- they've invested so much, they're committed, even if the outlook today for the SSPX is objectively hopeless. Also, they're getting old and tired, and have no energy for "The Fight" (Tradition) -- according to Boomer culture, they have worked hard all their life, and by gum they DESERVE an easy, laid-back retirement for their Autumn years. "I worked hard to build up this church, and by gum, I'm gonna enjoy it!" They are frequently found saying things like, "I ain't goin' back to the catacombs! I paid my dues back in the 70's. We did the garage Masses, basement Masses, hotel Masses."

Baby Boomers are the same way (entitled) when it comes to having worked hard, "done their time" and therefore "deserve" a period of leisure and retirement in the work world as well. They're just extending this particular cultural belief/value to the realm of Church/religious practice. It actually makes sense, from their perspective.

But don't get me started on the Boomers. hahaha  I must point out again, there are many good Boomers, including on CathInfo. Please don't take it personally, Boomers out there. But when I draw big-picture patterns about the whole generation, you gotta admit I'm spot on. And no, it's not a universal belief/value that by working hard from 18-60 you "deserve" any kind of ease or retirement in this life. Individualistic "retirement", where you are well-off for a couple decades before death, completely independent, not needing children-nuns-charity-or anyone to take care of you, living a life of travel, pleasure and leisure is a recent, American phenomenon that only existed since the US Gov't started the welfare state and "safety net" programs simultaneously in the 1960's. Even the Boomers didn't pay in enough to justify what they're going to get out of the system. So yes, it's basically an entitlement program, like food stamps or other welfare. It's just that the Boomers maybe paid in 20-40% of what they're getting out. But Social Security is an insolvent ponzi scheme, and that's a fact.

Yes, both the 2nd and 3rd category contain both 2nd and 3rd generation SSPXers (i.e., Those of the 2nd group are largely ignorant of the changes, while those of the 3rd group know and agree with them, but both groups are mainly comprised of 2nd and 3rd generation SSPXers.  They are just two different "species" of SSPXer within each group).

PS: Your "1st Generation SSPXer" group would be found mostly within my 3rd group, but it would certainly be legit to count them as a distinct 4th group.
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Offline KevinBrumley

Re: "As We Are"
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2021, 06:25:02 PM »
And there are yet others who perceive real, alarming problems, agreeing in part and denying in part, the accusations made in the book.  Some of the points made are valid, others are rash and ill-considered.  These people take a "wait and see" approach realizing that it is premature to denounce the entire SSPX and start their own group.  They see the threshold for departure is not yet met, with a view to history and what would justify an adverse separation with fellow catholics.  In other words, we ask: what is the standard by which one is forced to "relocate" historically speaking?  The only answer is when the Faith is endangered.  Look at the history of religious congregations and you will clearly see a pattern of health and decline.  Many saints were members of corrupted congregations but through their work, a restoration was effected.  

The reasons set forth by those who have separated are insufficient thus far, even agreeing with some of the assessments.  They understand that there is a range of opinions and a disagreement about practical matters doesn't necessarily involve an evil to be avoided.  We may be approaching a time when separation will be necessary but we have not arrived there yet.  I know others who think along the same lines.  The problem with those who "jumped ship" is that it is purely natural to look for any reason at all to justify their position no matter how unjustified and consequently censure anyone who may disagree.  This of course is a dangerous precedent especially when their priests eventually disappoint on some matter.        
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