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Author Topic: Starting a Mass Centre  (Read 5118 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Starting a Mass Centre
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2022, 05:11:46 PM »
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  • hmmm :confused: ... food for thought.  Since technically no Traditional chapel has canonical recognition and authorization, does this mean Trad Catholics are not technically / legally obliged to assist at those Masses on Sundays?
    This seems to be a position that leads to home-aloneism.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #31 on: December 13, 2022, 06:53:58 PM »
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  • If we are not obligated, then why not be a home-aloner?

    Because we get many graces from receiving the sacraments. Just because we aren’t obliged to assist doesn’t necessarily mean we shouldn’t attend mass any chance we get.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #32 on: December 13, 2022, 06:56:59 PM »
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  • This seems to be a position that leads to home-aloneism.

    Home aloners believe that you SHOULDN’T assist at any mass. I’ve held this position for close to 30 years and never fell into home aloneism.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #33 on: December 13, 2022, 07:02:35 PM »
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  • hmmm :confused: ... food for thought.  Since technically no Traditional chapel has canonical recognition and authorization, does this mean Trad Catholics are not technically / legally obliged to assist at those Masses on Sundays?

    Yes, but I don’t like to spread this thought too openly as I don’t want to dissuade anyone from attending mass and receiving the sacraments. In any event, it is a truth that none of these mass centers technically satisfy our obligation to assist at Sunday mass.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #34 on: December 13, 2022, 07:10:41 PM »
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  • As with most things related to Traditional Catholicism, there are more questions than answers.

    In the end, it is up to each individual to decide if he should attend this or that mass or none at all.

    Some people believe that the indult is ok. Some people think that the SSPX is ok. Some people think that Una cuм masses are mortal sin. And so on.

    Let's pray that God will be merciful with everyone. I believe that He will not punish people of any (Tradionalist) position, if they are sincere about what they are doing.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #35 on: December 13, 2022, 07:12:04 PM »
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  • There is no obligation (under pain of sin) to attend any particular lifeboat. We are all obligated to DO OUR BEST to KEEP THE FAITH especially if we have souls under our charge.

    But the choice of which lifeboat -- which Mass/Sacraments provider to make use of -- that is left to our own wisdom and prudence.

    No one, not even a lay pope on CathInfo, can bind anyone's conscience in this matter. God will judge each of us, that we did our best with what we had (what choices we had, our own particular situation). And no one knows your EXACT situation like you do. That's why we all must give our fellow Catholics the benefit of the doubt, and not try to compel their consciences under threats of mortal sin.

    And yes, I believe it highly prudent to avoid Fr. Pfeiffer's cult AT ALL COSTS, as in "even if you have no other option than staying home 365 days a year and getting ZERO Masses".

    Because there are worse situations, and worse fates, than having no Mass to attend. Many saints believed a bad priest was worse than no priest, for example. That's where I'm getting my opinion/thinking on this issue.

    Let's put it this way: if priests with dangerous errors weren't justification for staying home on Sunday, then WHAT IN THE HECK HAVE WE TRADS BEEN DOING THIS PAST 50 YEARS? Isn't this concept the very foundation and justification for the Traditional Movement? That the Novus Ordo has destroyed souls, and so it is prudent/humble to NOT EXPOSE OURSELVES to such cunning, crafty errors that have deceived many? Wouldn't a Trad cult with a charismatic leader qualify, as much as your average Novus Ordo priest?

    See, it's not just about the Mass. It's about the Faith. It's always been about the Faith.

    Just like in the 90's, it was a better move to send your kids to public school than a Novus Ordo "Catholic" school. Because NO religious instruction, where your defenses are up against all the pagans, can be BETTER than being sent to a "safe" place like a "Catholic" school where they will imbibe heresy and error, where their defenses will NOT be up.


    Great post! 👍👍👍
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #36 on: December 13, 2022, 07:50:19 PM »
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  • Yes, but I don’t like to spread this thought too openly as I don’t want to dissuade anyone from attending mass and receiving the sacraments. In any event, it is a truth that none of these mass centers technically satisfy our obligation to assist at Sunday mass.
    So the Church has left us with no masses we are obliged to attend? 
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #37 on: December 13, 2022, 09:18:33 PM »
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  • I don’t want to dissuade anyone from attending mass and receiving the sacraments. In any event, it is a truth that none of these mass centers technically satisfy our obligation to assist at Sunday mass.

    That is where "God will judge" comes in. On the one hand, we can't compel the conscience of others to assist at any particular lifeboat. On the other hand, home-aloners who foolishly reject GOOD OPTIONS for Mass will have to answer for any fallout that results from their foolishness.

    For example, there is a older man in my area (of Italian descent) whose grown daughter married a Novus Ordo man. She has several children, mostly girls. They were older kids, some of them almost teens. He convinced his daughter to take them to Mass at a Resistance chapel (the one I oversee) before Fr. Pfeiffer went off the deep end. Great priests, great sermons, great socialization with other Trads (including kids), and overall a great source of true Catholic influence. Later, when Fr. P went to war against the whole Resistance, this man stopped coming and so did his daughter. Now think about it: what influence will that daughter and her kids have now? 100% Novus Ordo plus a bit of pagan The World thrown in. Where are those children going to get ANY Catholic influence from now on? (Keep in mind Fr. P doesn't exactly come out this way EVER...) How is that wise in any one's book? That man 100% made a foolish move, adhering to his cult leader Fr. P who basically considers himself the de-facto Pope, with de-facto primary jurisdiction over the whole world. He even goes so far as to tell his cult members to avoid Masses with anyone else, even those in the Resistance! Insanity. Pure insanity.

    So yes, we are "free" to do what we want, but that's a double edged sword, like any right/responsibility combo. Whenever God gives you a responsibility (like raising children, saving your soul) He will judge you strictly on how you carried out that responsibility. Your rights are given to you so that you can carry out your responsibilities.

    So yeah, you have this glorious right to do what you feel is right, but at the same time what a great responsibility it is! Knowing that God knows all, and will judge strictly and justly. So heaven help you if pride, laziness, avarice, convenience, or any other base motive factored into "your decision" about where to attend Mass.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #38 on: December 14, 2022, 03:15:19 AM »
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  • This seems to be a position that leads to home-aloneism.

    Only for people who are lazy and looking for excuses not to go to Mass.  Question is not whether one CAN assist at these Masses but whether they, strictly speaking, satisfy one's Sunday obligation.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #39 on: December 14, 2022, 03:19:20 AM »
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  • So the Church has left us with no masses we are obliged to attend?

    This question makes no sense.  So what?  We have Masses AVAILABLE to us that please God and help us save our souls ... and whether or not they're technically / strictly / legally / canonically obligatory (i.e. satisfy our obligation) means next to nothing by comparison to having them available.  So ... if Sunday Mass weren't obligatory, you'd stop going to Mass or something?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #40 on: December 14, 2022, 04:27:27 AM »
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  • That is where "God will judge" comes in. On the one hand, we can't compel the conscience of others to assist at any particular lifeboat. On the other hand, home-aloners who foolishly reject GOOD OPTIONS for Mass will have to answer for any fallout that results from their foolishness.

    For example, there is a older man in my area (of Italian descent) whose grown daughter married a Novus Ordo man. She has several children, mostly girls. They were older kids, some of them almost teens. He convinced his daughter to take them to Mass at a Resistance chapel (the one I oversee) before Fr. Pfeiffer went off the deep end. Great priests, great sermons, great socialization with other Trads (including kids), and overall a great source of true Catholic influence. Later, when Fr. P went to war against the whole Resistance, this man stopped coming and so did his daughter. Now think about it: what influence will that daughter and her kids have now? 100% Novus Ordo plus a bit of pagan The World thrown in. Where are those children going to get ANY Catholic influence from now on? (Keep in mind Fr. P doesn't exactly come out this way EVER...) How is that wise in any one's book? That man 100% made a foolish move, adhering to his cult leader Fr. P who basically considers himself the de-facto Pope, with de-facto primary jurisdiction over the whole world. He even goes so far as to tell his cult members to avoid Masses with anyone else, even those in the Resistance! Insanity. Pure insanity.

    So yes, we are "free" to do what we want, but that's a double edged sword, like any right/responsibility combo. Whenever God gives you a responsibility (like raising children, saving your soul) He will judge you strictly on how you carried out that responsibility. Your rights are given to you so that you can carry out your responsibilities.

    So yeah, you have this glorious right to do what you feel is right, but at the same time what a great responsibility it is! Knowing that God knows all, and will judge strictly and justly. So heaven help you if pride, laziness, avarice, convenience, or any other base motive factored into "your decision" about where to attend Mass.

    Another good post!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #41 on: December 14, 2022, 04:28:53 AM »
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  • Only for people who are lazy and looking for excuses not to go to Mass.  Question is not whether one CAN assist at these Masses but whether they, strictly speaking, satisfy one's Sunday obligation.

    Yes, I agree.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #42 on: December 14, 2022, 04:42:32 AM »
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  • There is no obligation (under pain of sin) to attend any particular lifeboat. We are all obligated to DO OUR BEST to KEEP THE FAITH especially if we have souls under our charge.

    But the choice of which lifeboat -- which Mass/Sacraments provider to make use of -- that is left to our own wisdom and prudence.

    No one, not even a lay pope on CathInfo, can bind anyone's conscience in this matter. God will judge each of us, that we did our best with what we had (what choices we had, our own particular situation). And no one knows your EXACT situation like you do. That's why we all must give our fellow Catholics the benefit of the doubt, and not try to compel their consciences under threats of mortal sin.

    And yes, I believe it highly prudent to avoid Fr. Pfeiffer's cult AT ALL COSTS, as in "even if you have no other option than staying home 365 days a year and getting ZERO Masses".

    Because there are worse situations, and worse fates, than having no Mass to attend. Many saints believed a bad priest was worse than no priest, for example. That's where I'm getting my opinion/thinking on this issue.

    Let's put it this way: if priests with dangerous errors weren't justification for staying home on Sunday, then WHAT IN THE HECK HAVE WE TRADS BEEN DOING THIS PAST 50 YEARS? Isn't this concept the very foundation and justification for the Traditional Movement? That the Novus Ordo has destroyed souls, and so it is prudent/humble to NOT EXPOSE OURSELVES to such cunning, crafty errors that have deceived many? Wouldn't a Trad cult with a charismatic leader qualify, as much as your average Novus Ordo priest?

    See, it's not just about the Mass. It's about the Faith. It's always been about the Faith.

    Just like in the 90's, it was a better move to send your kids to public school than a Novus Ordo "Catholic" school. Because NO religious instruction, where your defenses are up against all the pagans, can be BETTER than being sent to a "safe" place like a "Catholic" school where they will imbibe heresy and error, where their defenses will NOT be up.
    I agree 100% and well said. Here I will correct myself and stress that my previous posts are meant to apply to me, that I'm the one who needs to go or I would sin, and that as is so often the case today, others need to discern the situation for themselves.

    For me, if he did something wrong during Mass then I would leave and not go there again, but for me, initially, I prioritize my obligation to attend above my feelings or what I think of the priest - and although he is at the bottom of my personal list - I would continue to go there if that's all I had and if I could do so without jeopardizing my faith.  

    In my mind, I liken Fr. Pfeiffer to +Sanborn back in the early days when Bishop Sanborn was a young Fr. Sanborn.  I regularly served his masses as he gradually made himself into a type of pope, not too unlike Fr. Pfeiffer today. It got to the point where Fr. Sanborn no longer held back and went off the deep end, so we left. For me, this scenario QVD came up with is not much more than kind of a rerun from 50 years ago.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #43 on: December 14, 2022, 04:50:15 AM »
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  • So the Church has left us with no masses we are obliged to attend?

    Does it really matter if the masses we attend on Sunday satisfy the Church’s law of the Sunday obligation? We go to receive graces. We go to set a good example. We go because we should go. 

    There are some older parish priests still around (I think there are two in France) that still celebrate mass in their churches and still have jurisdiction. If you lived in that area I believe it would be obligatory to attend their Sunday mass.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #44 on: December 14, 2022, 06:52:46 AM »
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  • Sure it matters QvD and makes sense Ladislaus.  Because to say that all of the masses available are not obligatory means the Church has required something of us that we cannot satisfy.  Assisting at mass is not just about what we get out of it.  It's about doing what the Church/God wills of us.

    And to be clear, I am not telling people what they should or should not do.  I am looking at this issue outside of that..the bigger picture: Whether the Church (still) provides masses for us in order to fulfill our Sunday Obligation.  It seems that most are saying that the Church does not.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)