Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => SSPX Resistance Chapels => Topic started by: PG on February 20, 2018, 03:52:10 PM
-
So I was looking at the pictures from the new sspx post about the benedictine sister house new mexico. And, picture number 26 out of 37 seems strange to me. It is a picture of many young women kneeling around a statue of probably st scholastica, and basically none of them are wearing veils. And, I am wondering, due to the picture and intended formality of it all, are these ladies the potential future postulants or novices soon to be formed when it opens? And, if so, why do they not have veils on? I mean, women do not just wear veils in church for mass. They wear veils when they are in church regardless. One of the ladies has a veil. But, for a picture, you would think they would wear veils.
http://sspx.org/en/media/photos/gallery-new-benedictine-sisters-house-nm-35744
-
Look on the bright side, PG. It's probably a group of young prospective vocations doing a tour along the corridors of the monastery. It's a charming and uplifting picture of young girls praying. What could be more beautiful?
-
I was looking on that side, and that is why I am suspect. I will be honest, I am not happy about this new sister house. They should have built somewhere else. The location and structure comes off to me as wrong.
-
And, if so, why do they not have veils on? I mean, women do not just wear veils in church for mass.
That picture was not taken in Church, but in the lunch hall. It is the same statue as in earlier pics, when +Fellay is shown eating lunch with others and the statue is directly behind him. Also, all pictures shown with an altar (i.e. in Church) have stained glass windows. The lunch room where the statue is, has clear windows.
PG, you need to be more careful before you criticize.
-
I was looking on that side, and that is why I am suspect. I will be honest, I am not happy about this new sister house. They should have built somewhere else. The location and structure comes off to me as wrong.
I spent many years, off and on, working at Our Lady of Guadalupe monastery. The location of the new house is located close by, S.E., of the monastery. I don't know where would be a better location than this...
The house is in the lower right hand corner of attached picture.
-
That picture was not taken in Church, but in the lunch hall. It is the same statue as in earlier pics, when +Fellay is shown eating lunch with others and the statue is directly behind him. Also, all pictures shown with an altar (i.e. in Church) have stained glass windows. The lunch room where the statue is, has clear windows.
PG, you need to be more careful before you criticize.
My concern was in the form of a question, and was at best only implicit. You are supposed to give me the benefit of the doubt. With my veil in church saying I meant because churches are a place of prayer. I did not necessarily imply this was occurring in a church. And, this comes off as a formal prayer picture, it just seems to me fitting to have a veil on.
-
You are supposed to give me the benefit of the doubt.
I did. I said 'be more careful'.
I did not necessarily imply this was occurring in a church.
Correct, you didn't imply it, you said it directly.
"I mean, women do not just wear veils in church for mass. They wear veils when they are in church regardless."
-
Ignatius - I don't enjoy this. But, I can't say that I like these women on the property at all. I think it takes away from the attraction of the mens monastery. The mens monastery is a beautiful spanish structure, while the womens is like a medeival mansion castle of different color atop a mountain. Our lord is atop the mountain. Our lady flies into the desert.
-
Looks like an incredibly peaceful place.
-
Ignatius - I don't enjoy this. But, I can't say that I like these women on the property at all. I think it takes away from the attraction of the mens monastery. The mens monastery is a beautiful spanish structure, while the womens is like a medeival mansion castle of different color atop a mountain. Our lord is atop the mountain. Our lady flies into the desert.
I'll assume that you haven't ever visited OLOG monastery... the new house is on a separate property, it's not uncommon for convents to be near a monastery of it's own order.
Looking through the pictures again, there's only one were the young ladies are even present at the monastery, they are present behind the gates which is always open to all that may come to the monastery, either to hear Mass or otherwise.
-
And, when I say "women on the property at all" I mean having the sister monastery. I didn't mean women shouldn't go to the mens monastery to sight see or to mass or the other occasions. And, yes I know that related monasteries sometimes are near each other. I think that was the case with st benedict and st scholastica. I think it was the case with st francis to an extent and saint clare. However, there is just something about this new situation that I am not thrilled about. It is hard to put my finger on it, especially because it is still in the works, but I cannot say that i like it. This monastery was like my dream a decade ago when I was in the NO and knew nothing about the sspx. I really knew nothing of the sspx except this mens monastery. And, I didn't care what any of it meant, this place was obviously a holy place. And, I still think that is the case.
And, if this womans monastery is on a separate piece of property, why go through the trouble at all? I am tired of this "cram everyone together and create a utopia" phenomenon in tradition, when what we really need are small missionary units that can survive for amounts of time on its own, self sufficiently, and well spread out. What the early sspx did was great, but I think it needs to go further in that direction, when the opposite has occurred to a large extent.
-
And, if this womans monastery is on a separate piece of property, why go through the trouble at all? I am tired of this "cram everyone together and create a utopia" phenomenon in tradition, when what we really need are small missionary units that can survive for amounts of time on its own, self sufficiently, and well spread out. What the early sspx did was great, but I think it needs to go further in that direction, when the opposite has occurred to a large extent.
I'm having a hard time trying to follow what your overall beef is, but this monastery, from it's conception under the encouragement of archbishop Lefebvre, was to be a contemplative monastery. I know, it doesn't seem that way at times, some of the monks seem to be away frequently. The fathers used to say Mass at our small mission for some time, but nonetheless, the Church needs It's contemplatives...
-
And, if this womans monastery is on a separate piece of property, why go through the trouble at all? I am tired of this "cram everyone together and create a utopia" phenomenon in tradition, when what we really need are small missionary units that can survive for amounts of time on its own, self sufficiently, and well spread out. What the early sspx did was great, but I think it needs to go further in that direction, when the opposite has occurred to a large extent.
You can't have an isolated convent without a priest who lives nearby. There are not enough priests today for one to be spared to ONLY help 1 convent; even many of the monks travel to say mass for the laity, which is not their normal duty. Your concerns, while not wrong, are too idealistic for our present times.
-
I'm having a hard time trying to follow what your overall beef is, but this monastery, from it's conception under the encouragement of archbishop Lefebvre, was to be a contemplative monastery. I know, it doesn't seem that way at times, some of the monks seem to be away frequently. The fathers used to say Mass at our small mission for some time, but nonetheless, the Church needs It's contemplatives...
Life is more than the meat, and the body is more than the raiment. If there is a beef, and in this case I think there is, then it is not limited or isolated to a few obvious things. And, the church needs monasteries. The church doesn't necessarily need contemplatives. They are not always the same thing.
-
Life is more than the meat, and the body is more than the raiment. If there is a beef, and in this case I think there is, then it is not limited or isolated to a few obvious things. And, the church needs monasteries. The church doesn't necessarily need contemplatives. They are not always the same thing.
The church may or may not need them but mankind certainly does need someone dedicated to praying for its salvation.
-
Life is more than the meat, and the body is more than the raiment. If there is a beef, and in this case I think there is, then it is not limited or isolated to a few obvious things. And, the church needs monasteries. The church doesn't necessarily need contemplatives. They are not always the same thing.
I'll have to respectfully disagree with this assertion, the contemplative religious is needed more now than ever... this taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia;
And although of the two great commandments given by Christ (Matthew 22:37 sqq.) — love of God and love for our neighbor — the first is exemplified more markedly in contemplative orders, and the second in active orders, contemplatives must and do have in their hearts a strong and true love for others, but they realize thatlove in their deeds. The principal means contemplatives have of proving their love for others are prayer and penance. By prayer they draw down from Heaven on struggling and suffering humanity manifold graces, light, strength, courage and comfort, blessings for time and for eternity. By penance they strive to atone for the offenses ofsinful humanity, to appease God's wrath and ward off its direful effects, by giving vicarious satisfaction to the demands of His justice. Their lives of perpetual abnegation and privation, of hardship cheerfully endured, of self-inflicted suffering, joined to the sufferings of their Divine Master and Model help to repair the evil men do and obtain God'smercy for the evildoers. They plead and make reparation for all men. This twofold ministry carried on within the narrow precincts of a monasteryknows no other limits to its effects than the bounds of earth and the needs of mankind. Or rather that ministry extends further still its sphere of action, for the dead as well as the living benefit by it.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04329a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04329a.htm)
-
The first and oldest order of the Church was the contemplative Carmelites. It's been prophecized that this order will last til the end of time, while others will not.
At her canonization, St Theresa the Little Flower was said to have been the greatest missionary of the 19th century and she never left her convent.
Contemplatives and silent prayer are the foundation and life of the Church. Without them, the rest of us are sunk.
-
The first and oldest order of the Church was the contemplative Carmelites. It's been prophecized that this order will last til the end of time, while others will not.
At her canonization, St Theresa the Little Flower was said to have been the greatest missionary of the 19th century and she never left her convent.
Contemplatives and silent prayer are the foundation and life of the Church. Without them, the rest of us are sunk.
Similar to how I do not believe in the authenticity claim about the shroud, I do not believe the claim about carmelites being the oldest religious order. As far as I am concerned, the desert monks, which were not always so ordered, are to be considered the original male religious orders. And, I have no qualm about simply considering it manifested best in the Benedictine foundation. And, the benedictine motto is ora et labora. What labora are these women going to do at their mansion mountain? Tradition had mary magdalen passing her last days praying and doing penance in a moist cave. This new monastery seems to be employing drastically different means, while advertising the same ends. I ask, how?
I also really have to say, that every single catholic state in life is supposed to be conducive to contemplation. If your vocation in life is not conducive to contemplation, then your vocation is not catholic. They all differ depending on our state in life, but they are all to be conducive to contemplation. Milking the cow for the family is conducive to contemplation. Tending the garden is conducive to contemplation. Hauling water up from the well(if western man still had wells) is conducive to contemplation. Chanting the psalms is conducive to contemplation. Attending mass on sunday is conducive to contemplation. A mother wiping her babies bottom is conducive to contemplation for crying out loud. My examples are wide and varied, but these are conducive to contemplation. The key is understanding their place of importance in varying states of catholic life. But, the keyword is none the less contemplation. Tickling our chin while we sit looking up at the heavens with an open bible should not really be the image catholics decide to put in their dictionary next to the word contemplation. And, neither should pulling ones hair out be either.
-
The first and oldest order of the Church was the contemplative Carmelites. It's been prophecized that this order will last til the end of time, while others will not.
I wasn't aware of this...
This is what I've been familiar with though;
Promises made to the Order of St Benedict...
From the book: The Life of St Benedict by Pope St Gregory the Great
1) His order will continue to exist to the End of the World.
2) It will, at the End of the World, in the final battle, render great services to the holy Church and confirm many in the faith.
3) No one shall die in the Order whose salvation would not be assured. And if a monk begins to lead a bad life and does not amend, he will fall into disgrace, or be expelled from the Order, or will leave it of his own accord.
4) Everyone who persecutes his order and does not repent will see his days shortened or meet with an unfortunate end.
5) All, however, who love his order will obtain a happy death.
-
Maybe this is a topic for another thread, but outside of the earliest manifestations of the benedictine order, and I must say what st francis brought to the table as the result of a special grace, I am not fond of religious orders. With that said, I will concur with st gregory the great. Because, benedictine brothers are the only remedy to a heretical papacy. Brothers being the key word.
-
I also really have to say, that every single catholic state in life is supposed to be conducive to contemplation.
Ok, but you're missing the point that Contemplative orders have lives that go far beyond being 'conducive to' contemplation. Their lives are contemplation itself.
Examples as to why these orders are important:
- Moses prayed alone on Mt Sinai for the Jєωιѕн race. He was an intercessor of sorts.
- Christ often withdrew, in solitude, to pray. Specifically for 40 days and 40 nights - which is the example we have for Lent.
- Our Lady, mother of the Church, lived her whole life in contemplation.
Here is a short article on the value of contemplatives to the Church:
https://www.dominicanajournal.org/wp-content/files/old-journal-archive/vol15/no1/dominicanav15n1valuethecontemplativelife.pdf
Progress in intimacy with God means progress toward silence. “For God alone my soul waits in silence,” declares the Psalmist, (Psalm 62:1).
The desert father Ammonas, a disciple of Saint Anthony, writes, “I have shown you the power of silence, how thoroughly it heals and how fully pleasing it is to God. Know that it is by silence that the saints grew, that it was because of silence that the power of God dwelt in them, because of silence that the mysteries of God were known to them.” It is this recreating silence to which we are called in contemplative prayer.
-
My understanding is that even contemplative orders sustain themselves by one means or another. Most, I think at least raise animals and keep a kitchen garden. Others may produce communion hosts or sew Mass vestments. They are contemplative so do not go out into the world to nurse or catechize, but they are not idle.
-
Ok, but you're missing the point that Contemplative orders have lives that go far beyond being 'conducive to' contemplation. Their lives are contemplation itself.
Examples as to why these orders are important:
- Moses prayed alone on Mt Sinai for the Jєωιѕн race. He was an intercessor of sorts.
- Christ often withdrew, in solitude, to pray. Specifically for 40 days and 40 nights - which is the example we have for Lent.
- Our Lady, mother of the Church, lived her whole life in contemplation.
Here is a short article on the value of contemplatives to the Church:
https://www.dominicanajournal.org/wp-content/files/old-journal-archive/vol15/no1/dominicanav15n1valuethecontemplativelife.pdf
Progress in intimacy with God means progress toward silence. “For God alone my soul waits in silence,” declares the Psalmist, (Psalm 62:1).
The desert father Ammonas, a disciple of Saint Anthony, writes, “I have shown you the power of silence, how thoroughly it heals and how fully pleasing it is to God. Know that it is by silence that the saints grew, that it was because of silence that the power of God dwelt in them, because of silence that the mysteries of God were known to them.” It is this recreating silence to which we are called in contemplative prayer.
While moses was alone on mt sinai, the Jєωs sinned and worshiped the golden calf. His contemplation brought him closer to god to produce the two tablets, but his contemplation did not sanctify the people. A better example might be moses lifting up his arms while the Jєωs were in battle, but he eventually got tired, and needed the help of aaron and another. But, that is not really an occasion of contemplation religious will successfully imitate.
The desert monks would be the best example of christ in the desert during lent. But, the desert monk structure was ultimately rejected by the west for its defects particularly concerning lack of community, excess of prayer, and lack of a work or labora. We need to have a balance of ora et labora. The desert monks did not have that. And, I would say the desert monks were what you describe as contemplatives.
As for our lady, contemplation is not an effective buzzword.
The advice given to benedictines is go into your cell, and recite the psalms. Too much silence can be deafening.
-
PG, this is only my opinion, but I think you'd benifit greatly by reading a wonderfully written book by John Senior. The title is The Restoration of Christian Culture... If it's possible to get your hands on a copy, I really believe it would help you get on an even keel.
-
My understanding is that even contemplative orders sustain themselves by one means or another. Most, I think at least raise animals and keep a kitchen garden. Others may produce communion hosts or sew Mass vestments. They are contemplative so do not go out into the world to nurse or catechize, but they are not idle.
It is good and I would even say essential if the property allows it to have a garden and animals. And, if the property doesn't allow it, perhaps it is the wrong property. What bothers me are the examples of monks beer/liqueur mongering. And, coffee mongering is not too far behind. These in my opinion are the result of too much time on ones hands. This is a fruit of idleness. Our vocation to tend gods garden has been so mechanized and made easy that we no longer spend our contemplative time doing them. And, instead the churches contemplatives/monks are employed in ventures that falsely ease the consciences of the mighty and intoxicate the minds of the destitute.
-
You are one fanatical dude, PG.
You give examples of activities conducive to contemplation (milking a cow, hauling water, changing diapers) but then you chastise monks for making beer or coffee?! Can they not contemplate while doing these things? You need to pray to St Benedict for moderation and a curbing of your extreme views. Your over-idealism has turned into the folly of intolerance (paraphrased from Churchill).
Remember the old saying: "The perfect is the enemy of the good."
"Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem."
-
You are one fanatical dude, PG.
You give examples of activities conducive to contemplation (milking a cow, hauling water, changing diapers) but then you chastise monks for making beer or coffee?! Can they not contemplate while doing these things? You need to pray to St Benedict for moderation and a curbing of your extreme views. Your over-idealism has turned into the folly of intolerance (paraphrased from Churchill).
Remember the old saying: "The perfect is the enemy of the good."
"Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem."
Churchill? Is that all you got? I am well aware of the dangers of perfection. And, where might your final quote have come from? I tend to prefer proverbs, wisdom, and parables that come from the bible. And, that sounds far from.
-
You're rejecting quotes on the 'dangers of idealism' because they aren't from the Bible. That's hilariously ironic and you prove my point.
-
I would disagree with PG that making beer, wine, or roasting coffee is not a good use of time at a monastery. They need to be producing something and these are things that people are willing to purchase and there is nothing inherently wrong with them.
I do not have a citation but I'm pretty sure monks of old brewed their own beer and fermented their own wine. Coffee? probably not since that came from the New World, but coffee is not "bad" per se, and I would not be surprised if they started doing it once coffee drinking gained popularity in Europe.
We do know that St. Benedict drank wine (some of his dear brothers tried to poison his cup) and I'll bet it was monastery made.
As far as what is "allowed" on property, once you buy rural property you can do with it what you like. If a contemplative order was in a city I'm sure they could still find wholesome ways to produce an income which didn't involve chickens and goats.
-
Beautiful!!
-
Marlemar - I was not referring to wine. I was referring to distilled alcohol and grain beer.
-
Churchill? Is that all you got? I am well aware of the dangers of perfection. And, where might your final quote have come from? I tend to prefer proverbs, wisdom, and parables that come from the bible. And, that sounds far from.
You don't have a point. You have been shut down at every turn. So much so that you are turning to insults.
-
Marlemar - I was not referring to wine. I was referring to distilled alcohol and grain beer.
But it is all alcohol, does it matter the source? A person can get just as drunk on wine as a martini or beer. I'm sorry I just don't see a distinction.
-
But it is all alcohol, does it matter the source? A person can get just as drunk on wine as a martini or beer. I'm sorry I just don't see a distinction.
There is a distinction in sources. But, the distinction you must know is in their ends. Distilled alcohol has a 20% minimum alcohol per volume with the norm being much higher. Whereas beer and wine have a maximum of 20% alcohol per volume, with the norm often being much less. they simply cannot ferment to a higher alcohol content. In sum, distilled alcohol is a much more potent liquid. It can be so potent that it is called firewater, because literally it can be set on fire. People will use it to spit fire, and some even attempt to drink it while on fire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mSt8gBQjSg
I don't know if you remember +Williamson talking about a top banker recently who left the industry and reveals all the behaviors of top bankers. He talked about this banker knew they were all satanists, but didn't participate in their satanic gatherings where they worshiped satan through hard alcohol consumption and sex with prostitutes. This banker just laughed about it. Distilled alcohol and intoxication go hand in hand. Whereas one can get their fill of wine and not end up belligerently intoxicated.
As illustrated by lent, where we eat smaller portions as a penance. Humans by their nature tend to enjoy filling themselves with food and drink. We who hunger and thirst for righteousness shall have our fill. When you try to have your fill with distill alcohol, you will find yourself terribly intoxicated.
-
I mean, we know the line, "throw out your televisions". We accept that. We avoid going to the beaches. Easy huh? We don't go to movie theaters. No problem. But, we possess and consume distilled alcohol? And, back to my whole point. Monks, one of the pillars of the church, our exalted living catholic examples here on earth, should not be chided for making and propagating this poison? It is one of the worst forms of mongery. It is embarrassing. And, beer in my opinion is not far enough behind.
-
A fine range of products from monasteries, convents and abbeys.
http://www.erboristeriafarfa.it/catalogo/erboristeria/
Some of those products come from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certosa_di_Pavia where herbal preparations and various alcoholic beverages including beer are produced by the monks. Just an example of possibilities for earning one's crust.
--------
PG, you seem to have a poor understanding of the religious life and its history.
Have you ever changed a pooey baby's nappy? Believe me - it is not conducive to contemplation. You seem to be rather unrealistic and very negative in your expectations.
As for this
And, the benedictine motto is ora et labora. What labora are these women going to do at their mansion mountain? Tradition had mary magdalen passing her last days praying and doing penance in a moist cave. This new monastery seems to be employing drastically different means, while advertising the same ends. I ask, how?
I find it verging on nasty.
St Mary Magdalene did not belong to a contemplative order of nuns. Her times and circuмstances were altogether different. And where would you find a damp cave for a convent of women so that they would have the availability of the sacraments for their spiritual needs, and how would they earn their living in a damp cave? Boggles the mind.
------------
About the Carmelites: This https://www.thecarmelitecentremelbourne.org/about/ explains the place (for want of a better word) Elijah has in the life of the Carmel.
-
nadir - pooey baby nappy? I don't like using the smiley's, in this case the laughing one, even when it seems so fitting. I do like you if you don't already know that. Anyway, I just think we have too short a memory. I have studied church history. And, our +Williamson 700 year decline is accurate, but note it doesn't even place us halfway home. We have so much penance to do. I simply want to make it sweet. Our lord said his penance is light, and it is true.
I used the moist cave example because it just so happens to be a fitting example illustrating here a polar opposite. I don't want these ladies to be in a moist cave. But, I do not want them to be atop the breezy mountain in a highrise mansion shadowing the beloved monastery of our lady of Guadalupe. It just looks so darn wrong to me. And, like I said before, I don't enjoy this. Because, back to my OP there is significance to a vale-less picture. It sends a certain type of message. These ladies didn't just randomly happen to kneel down there. They were probably ordered to, and they were perhaps even told not to wear their vales.
I wasn't one of the ones who hollered and hooted over the sspx news babe wearing a coat. I said I thought she was pleasant enough, while many said that she is being taken advantage of. Well, these girls may be in a similar boat.