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Crisis in the Church / Re: Question about New Rite of NO
« Last post by Clemens Maria on Today at 08:27:20 PM »
It looks like you are reading the objections as if they are Fr. Pierre-Marie's own arguments.  Those objections do not reflect his position.  They are the objections of others that he refutes later in the article.  

His article is structured like the Summa. He proposes objections, then answers the question, and then lastly replies to the objections.

Fr. Pierre-Marie does not believe the new form is invalid, or even doubtful.  On the contrary, he said: "It can be concluded that the formula is certainly valid, for it has been utilized from time immemorial in numerous Eastern Rites; it means the gift of the Holy Ghost that creates the bishop."

Here's a link his replies to the objections you mentioned.  http://sspx.org/en/validity-new-rite-episcopal-consecrations-5
He begins by stating the facts.  He never refutes the facts.  He admits them.  The form does not meet the minimum requirements set forth by Pius XII.  The form is based on an episcopal installation ceremony that Dom Botte erroneously thought was a consecration ceremony.  The rite is not the same as the eastern rites.  He refutes none of that because those are facts that he admits are true.
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Crisis in the Church / Re: Question about New Rite of NO
« Last post by X on Today at 08:19:51 PM »
It looks like you are reading the objections as if they are Fr. Pierre-Marie's own arguments.  Those objections do not reflect his position.  They are the objections of others that he refutes later in the article.  

His article is structured like the Summa. He proposes objections, then answers the question, and then lastly replies to the objections.

Fr. Pierre-Marie does not believe the new form is invalid, or even doubtful.  On the contrary, he said: "It can be concluded that the formula is certainly valid, for it has been utilized from time immemorial in numerous Eastern Rites; it means the gift of the Holy Ghost that creates the bishop."

Here's a link his replies to the objections you mentioned.  http://sspx.org/en/validity-new-rite-episcopal-consecrations-5

Bishop Tissier de Mallerais (giving his main reason for doubting the validity of the NREC):

“The [phrase] “spiritum principalem” in the form introduced by Paul VI is not sufficiently clear in itself and the accessory rites do not specify its meaning in a Catholic sense.”

Hence his conclusion:

“I concluded there was a doubt about the validity of Episcopal Consecration conferred according to the rite of Paul VI.”
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Teen Catholic Hangout / Re: Funny Stuff
« Last post by Kazimierz on Today at 08:13:06 PM »

As a Canuck, I can say this is oh so true!
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SSPX Resistance News / Re: Eleison Comments - Russia Vilified (no. 605)
« Last post by klasG4e on Today at 08:12:08 PM »
I believe that the world has become so evil/wicked/perverse that prayers and sacrifices can only mitigate the upcoming Great Chastisment where perhaps a third or more of mankind will likely be killed.  The horror will only be outdone by the purification that comes in its path.

I believe the Consecration will either come right before the Great Chastisement or within a short time after it.  There will be a period of peace all right.  The devastation will be so immense that about all the survivors could do would be to throw sticks and stones at each other, but after the mind numbing and hugely traumatizing deadly shock from the sky I don't think many, if any, of the survivors will even want to do that.  (Magnify the scene of the dazed survivors of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or Dresden to the nth degree and you might begin to imagine what I think it will be like.)

I believe that the Consecration will bring an extremely gigantic outpouring of grace to the survivors of the Chastisemant -- so much so that the surviving Christians will bring to the world a true Christian evangelization with such an intensity and scope that the history of the world has never seen and never will see again.  The Christians will evangelize with the heroic virtue of saints and the recipients will receive the grace to open their hearts to the evangelization.  Christianity will rise up from the ashes on a truly universal and unprecedented scale.

Some of the beautiful traditional chapels, churches, and cathedrals may or may not be miraculously saved from destruction so as to help the survivors remember the concrete glories of their Christian heritage and to serve as an inspiration for the new converts to the Church.  I don't think we need be overly sad when we see our beautiful churches being physically destroyed by the usurpers, especially when we accept the fact that many, if not most of them may very well turn into ashes in the Great Chastisment which may happen today or tomorrow.  Things are that bad!

Let us try to reduce our distractions and attachments.  Let us concentrate and focus more than ever on our great goal of working out our salvation "in fear and trembling."  Stay close to the Sacrament of Penance!  Stay in the state of grace and ask the Good God each day to help us conform more completely to his will.  Without his grace we can do nothing.  With his grace we can do all things.  If we look at a miserable and greatly fallen sinner, we may exclaim, "But for the grace of God go I, " but if we look at a saint (I know -- where are they?!) we may just as rightly exclaim, "But for my lack of cooperation with the grace of God go I." 
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Crisis in the Church / Re: Question about New Rite of NO
« Last post by RomanTheo on Today at 08:10:14 PM »
RomanTheo, the first half of Fr Pierre-Marie’s article shows how the NO episcopal consecration doesn’t meet the minimum requirements for validity as specified by Pope Pius XII in the 1940s.  It also shows how Dom Botte’s research was faulty and the rite is based on an ancient episcopal installation ceremony.  He also deals with the specific problems of the new form as if maybe despite not meeting minimum requirements it might still be valid but it becomes abundantly clear that the meaning of the new form is not the same as the old.  If you know anything about sacramental theology you know that a change in meaning of the form invalidates the sacrament.  So if using the Creator in place of the Father invalidates the form then what can we say about the significance of the changes in the episcopal consecration form?  It’s beyond the pale.

It looks like you are reading the objections as if they are Fr. Pierre-Marie's own arguments.  Those objections do not reflect his position.  They are the objections of others that he refutes later in the article.  

His article is structured like the Summa. He proposes objections, then answers the question, and then lastly replies to the objections.

Fr. Pierre-Marie does not believe the new form is invalid, or even doubtful.  On the contrary, he said: "It can be concluded that the formula is certainly valid, for it has been utilized from time immemorial in numerous Eastern Rites; it means the gift of the Holy Ghost that creates the bishop."

Here's a link his replies to the objections you mentioned.  http://sspx.org/en/validity-new-rite-episcopal-consecrations-5



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Anonymous Posts Allowed / Re: Elvis vs Beetles
« Last post by Anonymous on Today at 08:08:07 PM »
Elvis was a corrupter of morals.

The Beatles were corrupters of order.
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Anonymous Posts Allowed / Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
« Last post by Anonymous on Today at 08:03:26 PM »
How about cactly would cloistered nuns be praying the divine office in a public chapel?
And more to the point: How would cloistered nuns be praying the office with priests in choir (unless we are speaking about Novus Ordo Land, which we are not)?
How exactly would...
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Anonymous Posts Allowed / Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
« Last post by Anonymous on Today at 08:02:34 PM »
They could pray it in a public chapel. See my previous comment.
How about cactly would cloistered nuns be praying the divine office in a public chapel?
And more to the point: How would cloistered nuns be praying the office with priests in choir (unless we are speaking about Novus Ordo Land, which we are not)?
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Crisis in the Church / Re: Question about New Rite of NO
« Last post by 2Vermont on Today at 07:29:09 PM »
Or if there is anyone else, such as Judith 15 Ten, who can explain in their own words why they believe new rite is invalid, I would be interested in hearing it.  

The reason I'm asking is because everyone I know of who doubts the validity of the new rite does so because others doubt it, and not for doctrinal reasons.   And those I know who don't merely doubt, but positively affirm that the new rite is invalid, likewise don't do so for solid doctrinal reasons, but because the doubts of others have so persuaded them that they eventually because certain it is invalid.
I think you are saying that most folks doubt it merely because others doubt it.  If you mean that most people don't read up on clerical studies and come to an informed decision on their own, you are probably correct.

In my case, I read Fr Pierre's and Father Cekada' s studies and decided against the New Rite of Consecration (the New Rite of Ordination is less of a concern).

The fact that the SSPX changed its tune at the exact same time Benedict was elected made me very suspicious of their motivation in declaring the New Rite certainly valid.
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Anonymous Posts Allowed / Re: Do you have many good friends?
« Last post by Anonymous on Today at 07:05:54 PM »
... Perhaps I can grow spiritually from it, but what about my children? They will want companionship, and I fear they will befriend worldlings and noncatholics out of desperation in the future. So many good traditional Catholic families have come and gone.
Are you currently married, with children? 
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