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Again, idiot, NO CATHOLIC THEOLOGIAN has ever held that every teaching of the Magisterium is infallible.  You and your idiot cohort bosco alone believe that crap.  In so doing, you discredit Catholicism.  No, I don't accept Msgr. Fenton as infallible.  But you do, since his writings were imprimatured.  Nevertheless, Fenton cites a long list of sources (other theologians) who also teach that things like encyclical letters are not infallible.  You have yet to produce a single proof (other than your own perverted fantasy) that all acts of the Magisterium are infallible.  That's because NO CATHOLIC THEOLOGIAN has ever held that.

Gotta love the "down thumb attack" that Ladislaus has begun - within an hour I received 50 or so down thumbs, all in numbers of three across all of my posts. Looks like Ladi-boy is having a temper tantrum like a little boy because he has lost the debate.

Here I will list some quotes that you have asked for confirming that the Church teaches both solemn and ordinary magisterium are infallible. Please note the clarification that the Commentary on Canon Law gives on what may be erroneous from the magisterium - things that exclude faith or morals. These quotes easily trump the unknown priests you have quoted to support your position:


First Vatican Council (1870):
"All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."

Canon Law 1323 (1917):
1. All of those things are to be believed with a divine and Catholic faith that are contained in the written word of God or in tradition and that the Church proposes as worthy of belief, as divinely revealed, whether by solemn judgment or by her ordinary and universal magisterium.

Commentary On Canon Law, Augustine (imprimatur, 1918) Canon 1323:
§ 1. All those truths which are contained in the written word of God, or in tradition, and proposed to our belief as divinely revealed either by a solemn proclamation or by the ordinary and universal magisterium of the Church must be believed by Divine and Catholic faith.
…This infallible judgment is embodied in the teaching office of the Church, and constitutes a special prerogative granted to the Church by Christ, in virtue of which she cannot deceive nor be deceived in matters of faith and morals.
Our text distinguishes a solemn ex cathedra judgment and the ordinary magisterium of the Church. But there is no intrinsic difference between the two, as they derive from the same source, vis., the divine promise and providence, and have the same object and purpose. The object is faith and morals; the purpose, to protect the faithful from error.
…Both the Pontiff sole and the body of teachers united with him, enjoy the power of teaching infallibly.
a) What has been solemnly defined, either by a general council or by the Supreme Pontiff, is certainly de fide; but not all the historical or theological assertions which accompany a papal decision (for instance, the Bull "Ineffabilis ") are de fide.
b) What is clearly and undoubtedly contained in Holy Scripture and Tradition as a matter of faith or morals, must be believed, although individual errors are not entirely excluded;
c) What the universal and approved practice and discipline proposes as connected with faith and morals must also be believed ("Lex orandi, lex credendi").
d) What the Holy Fathers and the theologians hold unanimously as a matter of faith and morals, is also de fide.

Pope Pius IX in his Letter to Archbishop Scherr of Munich in 1863:
"We desire to reassure ourselves that they did not mean to limit the obligation, which strictly binds Catholic teachers and writers, to those things only which are proposed by the infallible judgment of the Church as dogmas of faith to be believed by everybody. In a like manner, We are convinced that it was not their intention to state that the perfect adherence to revealed truths (which they regard as absolutely necessary for true progress in science and for refuting errors) can be maintained, if the submission of faith is given only to those dogmas expressly defined by the Church. The reason for this is the following: even supposing that we are treating of that subjection which is to be made by an explicit act of divine faith, this must not be limited to those things which have been defined in the express decrees of the ecumenical councils or of the Roman Pontiffs of this See; but it must also be extended to those things which, through the ordinary teaching of the whole Church throughout the world, are proposed as divinely revealed and, as a result, by universal and constant consent of Catholic theologians are held to be matters of faith. "

Pope Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus, On the Study of Holy Scripture, November 18, 1893:
Wherefore the first and dearest object of the Catholic commentator should be to interpret those passages which have received an authentic interpretation either from the sacred writers themselves, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost (as in many places of the New Testament), or from the Church, under the assistance of the same Holy Spirit, whether by her solemn judgment or her ordinary and universal magisterium

Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical On the Church in Scotland, 1898
"But as the Church was to last to the end of time, something more was required besides the bestowal of the Sacred Scriptures. It was obviously necessary that the Divine Founder should take every precaution, lest the treasure of heavenly-given truths, possessed by the Church, should ever be destroyed, which would assuredly have happened, had He left those doctrines to each one's private judgment. It stands to reason, therefore, that a living, perpetual "magisterium" was necessary in the Church from the beginning, which, by the command of Christ himself, should besides teaching other wholesome doctrines, give an authoritative explanation of Holy Writ, and which being directed and safeguarded by Christ himself, could by no means commit itself to erroneous teaching"

Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, 1950 (Denz 2313):
It is not to be thought that what is set down in Encyclical Letters does not demand assent in itself, because in this the popes do not exercise the supreme power of their magisterium. For these matters are taught by the ordinary magisterium, regarding which the following is pertinent: "He who heareth you, heareth me." [Luke 10:16]; and usually what is set forth and inculcated in the Encyclical Letters, already pertains to Catholic doctrine. But if the Supreme Pontiffs in their acts, after due consideration, express an opinion on a hitherto controversial matter, it is clear to all that this matter, according to the mind and will of the same Pontiffs, cannot any longer be considered a question of free discussion among the theologians.

Pope Pius XII, Defining the Dogma of the Assumption, Munificentissimus Deus, Nov 1, 1950:
"Thus, from the universal agreement of the Church's ordinary teaching authority we have a certain and firm proof, demonstrating that the Blessed Virgin Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven- which surely no faculty of the human mind could know by its own natural powers, as far as the heavenly glorification of the virginal body of the loving Mother of God is concerned-is a truth that has been revealed by God and consequently something that must be firmly and faithfully believed by all children of the Church. For, as the Vatican Council asserts, "all those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."
“Certainly this teaching authority of the Church, not by any merely human effort but under the protection of the Spirit of Truth,[7] and therefore absolutely without error, carries out the commission entrusted to it, that of preserving the revealed truths pure and entire throughout every age, in such a way that it presents them undefiled, adding nothing to them and taking nothing away from them.”

Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913), Science and the Church, The Holders of the Teaching Office:
(1) The official activity of teaching may be exercised either in the ordinary, or daily, magisterium, or by occasional solemn decisions. The former goes on uninterruptedly; the latter are called forth in times of great danger, especially of growing heresies. The promise of Divine assistance provides for the integrity of doctrine "all days, even to the consummation of the world" (Matt., xxviii, 20). From the nature of the case it follows that individual bishops may fall into error, because ample provision is made when the entire teaching body of the Church and the supreme pastor in particular are protected by Providence. The "Ecclesia docens", as a whole, can never fall into error in matters of faith or morals, whether her teaching be the ordinary or the solemn; nor can the pope proclaim false doctrines in his capacity of supreme pastor of the universal Church. Without this prerogative, which is known by the name of Infallibility, the Divine promise of assistance would be a fallacy.

Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913), Dogma:
"...some theologians confine the word defined to doctrines solemnly defined by the pope or by a general council, while a revealed truth becomes a dogma even when proposed by the Church through her ordinary magisterium or teaching office”

A Catholic Dictionary (imprimatur, 1931-1957), Infallibility:
"This infallibility resides (A) in the pope personally and alone; (B) in an ecumenical Council subject to papal confirmation (these infallibilities are distinct but correlative); (C) in the bishops of the Church, dispersed throughout the world, teaching definitively in union with the pope. This is not a different infallibility from (B) but is the ordinary exercise of a prerogative (hence called the "ordinary magisterium") which is manifested in a striking manner in an ecumenical Council. This ordinary magisterium is exercised by pastoral letters, preaching, catechisms, the censorship of publications dealing with faith and morals, the reprobation of doctrines and books: it is thus in continuous function and embraces the whole deposit of faith."

A Catholic Dictionary (imprimatur, 1931-1957), Magisterium:
“The Church's divinely appointed authority to teach the truths of religion…This teaching is infallible. The solemn magisterium is that which is exercised only rarely by formal and authentic definitions of councils or Popes... The ordinary magisterium is continually exercised by the Church especially in her universal practices connected with faith and morals, in the unanimous consent of the Fathers and theologians, in the decisions of the Roman Congregations concerning faith and morals, in the common sense of the Faithful, and various historical documents, in which the faith is declared. All these are founts of a teaching which as a whole is infallible...”

The Catechism Explained (imprimatur, 1899) Page 239: The Infallibility of the Church
Nor was this solemn declaration (of the Immaculate Conception in 1854) necessary; it was quite sufficient that all the bishops should teach in the same sense in regard of any given subject to make that teaching infallible; were it otherwise the Church would be capable of teaching heresy, or of falling away from the truth. Hence the Vatican Council declared that not only must that be accepted which has been solemnly defined by the Church, but also whatever is proposed by the lawful and general teaching authority (Vatican Council, 3, 3).

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General Discussion / Re: Eco-disaster looms over New Orleans
« Last post by Neil Obstat on Today at 05:43:50 PM »
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I have an idea.
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The DEQ claims that the landfill is intended only for non-toxic demolition debris, and that steps have been taken to keep hazardous materials out. But Subra says the wholesale demolition of homes in New Orleans leaves much to be desired when it comes to sorting.
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Portraits of loss in the wake of Katrina

The order creating the landfill allows everything within the four walls of a house to be deposited here. This includes not only decaying mattresses and rotting food, but "all the petroleum products you might have for your lawnmower, all the cleaners and the pesticides, the degreasing solvents, and toner," Subra says. All of these things have been observed in the waste stream destined for the landfill, she reports.

Subra has spoken with debris removal crews in the field. She says they've been instructed to set aside any hazardous material they see on the surface of a debris pile, but to not bother with anything within the piles. Hired spotters at the landfill perch on stands and watch as the debris is dumped, but can catch only a portion of hazardous waste going by. U.S. EPA officials told CNN last October that only 20 to 30 percent of the hazardous material would likely be diverted.
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Open a landfill across the street from where all the liberals live and see how they like it. 
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Tell them, "The landfill is intended only for non-toxic demolition debris. Steps have been taken to keep hazardous materials out. Hired spotters at the landfill perch on stands and watch as the debris is dumped."
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You do not get it at all, which makes debating with you a test which no one, not even you, can pass.

Your whole idea of "out of the Church" is altogether corrupt. You cannot grasp the fact that the pope, being the supreme authority on earth, has no superior, not even all the bishops, priests, cardinals and whatever other prelates all together in council can even accuse him of anything, let alone you judging him of being "out of the Church" - this fact in and of itself makes the whole sedevacantist doctrine, which btw, most certainly is nothing but a doctrine of man, absolutely superfluous, if not mortally sinful.

I didn't ask whether anyone could discern it. I asked whether a true pope can be outside the Church.
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At certain points in history, the United States had some Protestant trappings, but to suggest it was ever truly a "Christian county" is severely misguided.
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General Discussion / Re: Latin NO mass ,,No way jose
« Last post by Jovita on Today at 05:20:28 PM »
They should both go there then.

Reminds me of the book Parachuteless Skydiving by Hugo First
Yeah, not a good idea. 
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-skydiver-killed-wingsuit-20170525-story.html

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General Discussion / Jesus had sisters?
« Last post by White Wolf on Today at 05:15:06 PM »
Were any of them at the foot of the Cross with Our Lady? ::)

Seriously, language is a complicated thing folks.  Aramaic does have a denotation for cousin, etc, but it is all in the punctuation and placement of words, not the words themselves.  Contrary to evolutionary theory, language has been disintegrating for millennia. English and the other modern European languages are to the ancient tongues as whitewashed puritanical churches are to Gothic cathedrals.  Take cases, for example.  Greek had twelve cases, Latin 9, and English has barely 5- nominative, accusative, possessive, dative, and subjunctive.  
Thank God we had St Jerome to translate and append, with his singular knowledge of Greek, Latin, Hebrew, the Aramaic group (He lived in Afrika) the existing scriptures, weed out apocryphal writings, and give Holy Mother Church the Latin Vulgate, which the Council of Ephesus declared to be the definitive copy of the scriptures.  The Douay Rheims is the English translation of the Vulgate and, though not guaranteed like the Vulgate, is easily referenced to it.
One of my beefs with Pius XII was Divino afflante spiritu , which suddenly denigrated St Jerome to second class status and called for research into the "original sources", as though anybody could distinguish these after a span of over 1500 years.  (Try tracking your footprints over the leaves after a violent thunderstorm.)
I humbly submit that we accede to the wisdom of our ancestors and thank the Holy Ghost for the Vulgate and the commentaries on the English translation such as done by Haydock and Cornelius Lapide, rather than trying to construct the wheel from chicken wire...
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Great Circle Sydney to Santiago on "Google Earth"
   about 11,400 km




Shortest Sydney to Santiago on "Gleason Map"
   about 25,400 km

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There have been commercial flights between Sydney and Santiago -- they've had a duration and mileage comparable with the former (11,400 km) but not with the latter (25,400 km).
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Again, no flat-earthers to reply:  they'd have to say, NO THATS(sic)NOT TRUE, or something like that.
(Leaving out the apostrophe, of course.)
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Great Circle route flights between Perth, Australia and Buenos Aires, Argentina would take the plane almost directly over the South Pole:
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The alternative route on the bottom appears obviously curved here - between Buenos Aires and Sydney. That's a Great Circle route too, but our angle of view is not right above its coordinates. This view is directly above the South Pole, so the top route between Perth and Buenos Aires appears only very slightly curved.
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If you understand what Great Circle route is, you'll understand the difference and reasons. If you don't, you won't. And if you don't want to, you NEVER WILL.
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Simple.
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Stubborn, I have been waiting a couple of days for you to answer this. Can a true pope be "out of the Church"?
You do not get it at all, which makes debating with you a test which no one, not even you, can pass.

Your whole idea of "out of the Church" is altogether corrupt. You cannot grasp the fact that the pope, being the supreme authority on earth, has no superior, not even all the bishops, priests, cardinals and whatever other prelates all together in council can even accuse him of anything, let alone you judging him of being "out of the Church" - this fact in and of itself makes the whole sedevacantist doctrine, which btw, most certainly is nothing but a doctrine of man, absolutely superfluous, if not mortally sinful.

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General Discussion / NAFTA super-highway, the road to nowhere...
« Last post by White Wolf on Today at 04:53:28 PM »
This boondoggle was going great guns until Syria decided it did not want to run a pipeline and Afghanistan did not want to increase poppy production for the Bush (not shrubbery, folks) drug cartel.  Then Texas decided no thanks, it did not want to double highway taxes.

That was the first notable setback for the Jew World Order since Saddam went to the Euro, necessitating another war to spread democracy and freedom... :P
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