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Offline s2srea

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I've come to recognize that if we are to live in this republic, and if this country is to stay a republic after the Chastisement, I think we should add an amendment to the constitution recognizing Jesus Christ as King, all authority as coming from God, and a recognition and protection for the rights of truth. So much shock and horror directed at things such as homosexual unions, unborn child murder, Christian persecution, & cetera, though worthy of shock and horror, would be better directed at recognizing the source of such atrocities: the constitution. It is the constitution which excludes God and Christ from even a mere mention. That's why the Evangelicals and Catholics who pretend that this is somehow a 'Christian' nation are fooling themselves. Especially considering our Constitution mentions Man as the greatest good, and has not one hint at the Almighty; there is not even a hint at a pagan god, or an higher authority of any sort, apart from man.

Anyways, I found this website, and am curious if a Catholic could support the following amendment found there:



My concern is the 'no Christian sect not having preference over another'. Of course I believe that the Catholic faith is supreme to all, and should be given preference. That's why I, more and more, am finding that republicanism is incoherent with Catholicism. I know Pope Pius XII said otherwise, but I humbly disagree with him. Anyways, I don't think someone could say that this amendment is not better than our current constitution. But still it still places our Holy Faith on the same level with false religions, could a Catholic Man, in good conscience, support it?

Offline Frances

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Would a Catholic be able to support such an amendment to the Constitution?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2013, 11:14:10 AM »
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  •  :dancing-banana:I couldn't support it because it is not true!  All " Christian" denominationS???
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  


    Offline jman123

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    Would a Catholic be able to support such an amendment to the Constitution?
    « Reply #2 on: December 19, 2013, 11:16:38 AM »
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  • Well, maybe for prudential reasons it should be adopted. remember what Leo XIII said, that Protestants should be tolerated if they were numerous. Unfortunately we are not in the majority.  If we were, then amend the Constitution to make Catholicism supreme.

     Remember, we need to be prudent with the circumstances.

    Offline s2srea

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    Would a Catholic be able to support such an amendment to the Constitution?
    « Reply #3 on: December 19, 2013, 11:20:54 AM »
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  • Quote from: jman123
    Well, maybe for prudential reasons it should be adopted. remember what Leo XIII said, that Protestants should be tolerated if they were numerous. Unfortunately we are not in the majority.  If we were, then amend the Constitution to make Catholicism supreme.

     Remember, we need to be prudent with the circumstances.


    Thanks. I agree, but wanted to ensure that there was teaching to back me up. Do you know where he said this?

    Offline jman123

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    Would a Catholic be able to support such an amendment to the Constitution?
    « Reply #4 on: December 19, 2013, 12:22:44 PM »
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  • I think it was immortale dei of Leo xiii


    Offline Dolores

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    Would a Catholic be able to support such an amendment to the Constitution?
    « Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 12:40:46 PM »
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  • I think the question of whether to support the proposed amendment is a waste of time as it will never be adopted.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    Would a Catholic be able to support such an amendment to the Constitution?
    « Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 12:59:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    My concern is the 'no Christian sect not having preference over another'. Of course I believe that the Catholic faith is supreme to all, and should be given preference. That's why I, more and more, am finding that republicanism is incoherent with Catholicism. I know Pope Pius XII said otherwise, but I humbly disagree with him.


    I can think of some republican constitutions that are compatible with the Faith, such as the aristocratic republics of Venice and Genoa, for example, or that of Switzerland and Florence.  Indeed, that is a true republic, akin to that of Rome and the Greek city-states, also described by Aristotle as the politeia (polity) or later described as a mixed régime (regimum commixtum) in Scholastic political philosophy.  As far as I understand it, the Faith is compatible with any form of government that is not contrary to the moral law, as was affirmed by Leo XIII, Pius XI, and Pius XII.  Furthermore, Leo XIII established that "the people" are not sovereign but rather those who elect the executive merely select the one who God then bestows with sovereign authority.  This power can be shared or rather diffused, however, to legislators and judges, or at least that is what I gather from various XXth-century theologians who commented on the matter.

    Nevertheless, monarchy is the most perfect of all governments, and the monarchy that maintains strong elements of aristocracy and republic within its constitution (while remaining a true monarchy, with a truly sovereign King who exercises real power) does indeed seem to qualify as a mixed régime.  This sort of monarchy, per St Thomas, is the ideal, and it existed for many centuries in the Mediterranean and later in what became known as Europe within the past several millennia, both prior to and after its conversion to Christianity.  I would say that this kind of non-bureacuratic government by men for the common good is the most stable, as its longevity testifies.  The thing that seems to have destroyed it is the competition between the nations and the rise of the money-power, a twin and symbiotic process that dimmed and obscured the undying vision of a united Christendom and a restored Roman Empire to establish a true peace in the world.

    The general rules of thumb, then, according to my thinking, are the following :  

    I. Governments that do not respect the inequality between different social stations, which is part of the natural order, are monstrous (in the Aristotelian sense of being unnatural) and abhorrent.

    Note :  To paraphrase Leo XIII, "nobody does not profit from this natural inequality between the classes" unless they agitate against it due to some misguided principle and thus convert a source of harmony and order into an excuse for chaos.  

    II.  Republics and such like are tolerable if less than ideal (and they have a unique tendency towards persecution of the Church insofar as they might treat clerics like lay subjects of the state), but they typically only work in smaller polities; large countries require either a monarchical principle to unite them.

    Note :  Otherwise, they can only be united through a tyrannical, massive bureaucracy that more so dominates through the petty violence of an infinity of regulations and standardisation processes than it rules.  And this point, I say, history proves.  

    III.  Some governments are detestable and are irreconcilable with the Faith, such as tyranny, democracy, oligarchy, or something contrary to the moral law.

    Note :  An example of a government contrary to the moral law would be one wherein only women are allowed to rule or a state based on the ruler's ownership of all his subjects and their property as chattel slaves or a state wherein membership in an evil society or an evil oath is required for enjoyment of the franchise.  A state wherein one must be a sodomite or must commit murder to enjoy be enfranchised would be an example of a State with which the Church cannot have dealings.

    One could argue in some cases that the lattermost requirement might be a simple law rather than a feature of the constitution as such and that therefore it is subject to removal.  Perhaps so.  After all, the Church does not deny the right of pagans or infidels to rule their various states; the Church grants that non-Catholic princes truly enjoy sovereign authority provided by God.  So, it seems that a state that could be said to be opposed to the moral law has to be so at the natural level rather than the divine, otherwise no non-Catholic state would have the right to exist.

    The other problem is that the liberal republics tend to be evil and one must swear an oath to the principles of liberalism in order to exercise government office in most of them.  The degree to which this compromises the government's reconcilability with the Faith would need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, but I personally believe that it poses a substantial compromise.  One might argue that the Church has tolerated and spoken well of such republics before, but then again the Church also initiated diplomatic relations with the Soviety Union, or rather the Vatican City-State did so under Pius XI on the specious grounds that an opportunity for the advancement of the Faith was opened upon the removal of the Tsar, "our greatest enemy."  Pope Pius VI also officiated at the auto-coronation of Napoléon Bonaparte, but that did not mean that the small corporal was a legitimate monarch, as most Catholics and many Catholic bishops in France long maintained and still maintain without censure.

    I think it bears stating that the political alliances and choices of the Holy See are not binding on Catholics' consciences.  The Church can excommunicate Kings and can remove their subjects from their obligations of obedience, but this is only an indirect power rather than a direct one, and the Church long ago dropped the discourse of plenitudo potestatis that would give the Holy See the ability to make or break any state by fiat.  Even holy Popes like Innocent XI gave support to William of Orange against James II of England -- a Catholic who would have arrested the English Protestant oligarchy and propagated the Faith in Britain -- in order to thwart the designs of Louis XIV during his most Gallican and regalist phase.  Yet, it would be absurd to say that Catholics were and are required to praise the so-called "Glorious Revolution."

    There are perhaps some other general guidelines that could be thought up, but I am tired, my brain is shutting off, and I do not want to continue writing this post.

    Quote
    Anyways, I don't think someone could say that this amendment is not better than our current constitution. But still it still places our Holy Faith on the same level with false religions, could a Catholic Man, in good conscience, support it?


    I personally would not be comfortable supporting it and would reject it.  I think balkanisation would be preferable to a constitution that officially declares the Catholic Church to be treated as an equal constituent with Protestant sects and as a subsidiary organisation simply participating in the life of a precedent city.  The Church is sovereign and is due by divine right the prestige and favour of the laws.  Even so, the Church has tolerated certain abuses of her authority before, such as in the Concordat of Bologna with François I of France and similar concordats with other powers wherein the Kings of Europe would have the right of nominating candidates for the episcopate (which more or less meant indirectly electing them), or in her concordats by which she tolerates the non-recognition of her rights in laic or religiously hostile democratic republics in the contemporary period.

    Offline s2srea

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    Would a Catholic be able to support such an amendment to the Constitution?
    « Reply #7 on: December 19, 2013, 01:56:30 PM »
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  • Thank you PJ!

    Question: You said, "Pope Pius VI also officiated at the auto-coronation of Napoléon Bonaparte, but that did not mean that the small corporal was a legitimate monarch, as most Catholics and many Catholic bishops in France long maintained and still maintain without censure. ". Why did he officiate it?


    Offline s2srea

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    Would a Catholic be able to support such an amendment to the Constitution?
    « Reply #8 on: December 19, 2013, 01:57:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Dolores
    I think the question of whether to support the proposed amendment is a waste of time as it will never be adopted.


    I agree that I think the proposed amendment will never be adopted. But that does not mean the question of principle I put forward is a waste of time.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    Would a Catholic be able to support such an amendment to the Constitution?
    « Reply #9 on: December 19, 2013, 02:38:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Thank you PJ!

    Question: You said, "Pope Pius VI also officiated at the auto-coronation of Napoléon Bonaparte, but that did not mean that the small corporal was a legitimate monarch, as most Catholics and many Catholic bishops in France long maintained and still maintain without censure. ". Why did he officiate it?


    I made a mistake.  It was actually Pius VII.  Pius VI condemned the Revolution as treason and the execution of the King as the killing of a martyr for the Faith.  He died in 1799.  He must have thought that cooperation with Napoléon would mean toleration for the Catholic religion in France, including some freedom for the lawful bishops to operate, and the restoration of its civil status.  Before the Concordat, bishops had to swear an oath against the Pope in order to be recognised by the State.  The Vendéens began their resistance to the Republic precisely over the question of "juring" and "non-juring" clergy, after their priests who refused to take the oath were arrested, all religious orders were made illegal, and churches were closed.  

    My guess is that Pius VII figured that the restoration of some liberty for the Church through toleration of the liberal Napoléon was the lesser of two evils for the faithful in France and in the rest of Europe, so he cooperated somewhat with Napoléon and negotiated the Concordat of 1801 and then crowned Napoléon "Emperor of the French" in 1803.  

    Pius IX would later include prayers for Napoléon III, "Emperor of the French," after the end of Mass in the Roman Missal, since Napoléon III -- for demagogic reasons -- styled himself a defender of the Church and the Holy See.  I think Pius IX granted the concession of prayers for the "Emperor" with the hope that the demagogue would live up to his pro-Catholic pretensions.

    Anyway, the liberty of the Church to publicly operate seems, at least since Pius VII in the rest of Europe and since Pius XI in Italy, to overrule just about every other criterion when it comes to the diplomatic relations of the Holy See.  There were exceptions, of course, such as when Gregory XVI condemned the Polish nationalists who rebelled against their sovereign, the Tsar, despite their specious reasoning that his rule was illegitimate since he was Russian Orthodox and persecuted Catholics.  Similarly, Pius IX forbade all Catholics from supporting the Kingdom of Italy and even voting in its elections, under pain of excommunication.  Likewise, St Pius X condemned the Sillon and its vision of "Christian democracy."

    By contrast, Leo XIII and Pius XI and Pius XII called for a "rallying to the Republic" and for Christian democracy and even failed to strongly condemn the USSR in the hope that some liberty would be granted to Catholics in Ukraine, Poland, etc.  Both Vatican political camps -- the conservatives and realists -- believed that their policies would be more effective at advancing the Faith and morality in the long run.  We now have generations of hindsight to see whose long-term vision was clearer.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    Would a Catholic be able to support such an amendment to the Constitution?
    « Reply #10 on: December 19, 2013, 03:03:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph
    I made a mistake.  It was actually Pius VII.  Pius VI condemned the Revolution as treason and the execution of the King as the killing of a martyr for the Faith.  He died in 1799.  He must have thought that cooperation with Napoléon...


    "He" meaning Pius VII : "Pius VII must have thought that cooperation with Napoléon..."


     

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