Now let's say that hypothetically, unless you vote for B, A will win the election. Do you refuse to vote B because you can't have a pro-abort as your representative? I think it would be highly immoral for you to refuse to vote B in such circuмstances.

You have thus admirably exposed your false principles.  Based on your "lesser evil" reasoning, you think it "immoral" to NOT vote for a PRO-ABORTION candidate (under certain circuмstances) ... and not even just "permissible" to vote for him.  You have made my point better than I ever could.  According to CATHOLIC principles, you CANNOT vote for such a candidate just because he's LESS evil.  You cannot vote for an evil candidate.  You are a Protestant utilitarian and not a Catholic when it comes to electoral politics.

Lad:

I've outed my real identity on this board and have repeatedly mentioned that I attend Mass in Ohio.  Never been anywhere near Post Falls.  So, if you've seen my previous posts, you'd know that 1) I am not fan of Father Pfeiffer and 2) have never had anything to do with Post Falls.  I refused to answer your question simply because it's idiotic, having nothing to do with the point I was making, and not to "preserve [my] identity".  I in fact gave my real name very early on here.  Also, it should be known that I was the first to be critical/wary of Father Pfeiffer.  I detected in his earliest sermons a sectarian "bunker" mentality where he implied that he was the last bastion of Catholicism left on earth.  I took a lot of heat at the time, but my misgivings proved to be spot on.

Lad, I an satisfied that you are not that person.  Please accept my apologies for having suspected you were.  The guy I'm thinking about has caused no end of problems out here, and he is definitely a Pfeifferite, which you are apparently not.  So again, my apologies.

As for having revealed your identity in the past, I do not remember, and I do not attempt to remember or archive the identities of most people on this forum.  As the months and years pass, I remember less and less.

Please accept my apologies for having suspected you were.

No worries.  I'm not even sure who this person might be.

YES!

Not to vote for Trump is to vote for Hillary.

A family member asked me yesterday if it was OK to NOT vote for Trump, since he was less than trustworthy, his motives are suspect, etc.

Here is my response:

Here's the deal --

Voting FOR Hillary is probably a mortal sin, due to her extreme pro-abortion stance, desire for partial birth abortion everywhere and so forth.

However, what you do instead is more of a matter of opinion.

Practically speaking, voting for a third party (or not voting) will give the election to Hillary, because in America 2016 a third party doesn't have a snowball's chance of winning. However, there is a fundamental difference. Voting for that third party out of principle, or not voting, is NOT the same as actually casting a vote for Hillary. Having the same result isn't the same thing. And in Catholic morality, that makes all the difference.

Catholic doctrine is very precise...it doesn't deal in "might as well"s. For example, a woman could have a life-saving procedure which might result in a non-desired death of her baby. That still wouldn't be an abortion. It's called the principle of double effect. You can't directly will an evil, but you can permit an undesired, evil side effect for a sufficiently good reason.

In our heavily flawed system, there is plenty of reason to excuse Catholics from voting, if that's what you want to know.

However, my humble opinion would be: keep Hillary out at any cost! She might be the one appointing the next FOUR Supreme Court justices (many of them have one foot in the grave at the moment), and you can imagine what kind of women they will be. Plus she wants to bring on WW3 with Russia, take away all guns, and all the other communist stuff she (a communist and probably an actual witch) wants to do.

I figure Trump will at least give us more years to prepare. He's a vote for "step on the gas a little", whereas Hillary is a vote for "floor it, man!"
More years are always better, for preparation purposes -- both spiritual and material.

Incidentally, this next month might be very "interesting". There has scarce ever been such a divide in this country -- half of the country hates the other half with a passion. Whoever wins, or appears to win, there might be riots. The only question is: who will be rioting, and will the start of the riots be genuine, or staged. This outcome -- including the choice of the 2 candidates to begin with -- was all by design, I'm sure. They're already preparing us with the idea that Russia is going to "hack" the election system and then they'll keep Obama in longer, or something like that.

Quote from: Rosemary

YES!

Not to vote for Trump is to vote for Hillary.

If there are two candidates, one who supports abortion and infanticide (up to 6 weeks), and another who just supports abortion, and you vote for neither, this absolutely does not mean that you voted for the guy who supports abortion and infanticide.  It means that you cannot support either one.  This isn't even that hard.

If these were your only two serious options, you would be obliged to vote for the one "who just supports abortion."  The lesser of evils prohibition would kick in if one was going to abort Group A and the other was going to abort Group B (a smaller group not included in Group A).  You can (and should) vote for fewer abortions.  But you couldn't sacrifice the lives of smaller Group A to save more lives in Group B.

Quote from: sedevacantist3

If both candidates are pro abortion, in my opinion  it would be immoral to vote for any of the 2.

Well, your opinion is worth less than a single Cheerio that's been on the floor for 3 weeks. And I will treat it accordingly.

For what it's worth, the same goes for Ladislaus OPINION and my OPINION. Unfortunately for you, we are not giving our worthless opinions, but rather the teachings of the One True Church on this matter.

. . .

The Catholic Church permits us to vote for "the lesser of two evils", but She does not command us to do so -- much less under pain of grave sin.

You and Ladislaus are not in agreement.

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Rosemary

YES!

Not to vote for Trump is to vote for Hillary.

Uhm, no, no it's not.  If you don't vote for either candidate, you're stating that you cannot in good conscience vote for or endorse EITHER one.  It is not the same as endorsing or voting for Hillary.  Again, the non-Catholic viewpoint on moral reasoning.  If you won't kill an innocent person in order to save 10 others, that is decidedly not the same as killing those 10 others.  You cannot do evil, not even to prevent a greater evil ... aka ends does not justify the means.  Catholic Moral Theology 101.

If there are two candidates, one who supports abortion and infanticide (up to 6 weeks), and another who just supports abortion, and you vote for neither, this absolutely does not mean that you voted for the guy who supports abortion and infanticide.  It means that you cannot support either one.  This isn't even that hard.

In Ladislaus' first paragraph, he gives objectively true, correct Catholic doctrine. It is not Ladislaus' opinion. If you beg to differ, then you are disagreeing with the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ -- in which case, I pity you.

He (and I) have had some seminary training. Most of you have not.

If you disagree with the above post (for example, the 2 down-thumbers), you are simply WRONG. Period.

The first paragraph in Ladislaus' post is the teaching of the Church.  As to the second paragraph, I'm quite certain that it is Ladislaus' position that the Church would prohibit casting a vote for either candidate.  That is where he runs amuck with the "lesser of evils" misnomer.