Author Topic: Voting for Trump? (Read 24041 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #105 on:** October 26, 2016, 12:39:08 PM »

At the end of the day, our vote is likely a waste. Servants of the "prince of this world" control the voting machines anyway. But I'm only voting on the off chance that they do not completely control these and it might have some affect.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #106 on:** October 26, 2016, 12:57:47 PM »

What's fascinating are the # of people who think Trump is some 'outsider'. He's only an outsider in the sense that he's not a politician. In every other way, he's a big-wig, corp fat cat, who is opposed to Hillary because she prefers socialism to fascism/corporatism/capitalism. Now, he may want to keep America at the top of the global food chain, but that doesn't mean he's really for american values.

Sure, Trump is being attacked by the media NOW, but during the primaries he was promoted non-stop, at the expense of other candidates who were largely ignored by the media (i.e. Rand Paul). During the primaries, it was clear who the media wanted - Trump. Has everyone forgotten this already???

hollingsworth · « **Reply #107 on:** October 26, 2016, 01:06:58 PM »

Lad:

Quote

but "lesser of two evils" is utterly abhorrent to Catholic moral reasoning.

Ladislaus, let us be clear: You are voting for Trump? You are not voting for Trump? Which is it?
Enough of the "Catholic moral reasoning" swill!

Alexandria · « **Reply #108 on:** October 26, 2016, 04:33:45 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Alexandria
Anyone that suggests we don't vote ought to be completely ignored.

Ridiculous. If Trump promotes evil principles, we cannot vote for him ... regardless of how evil his opponent might be.

If you had the choice of two candidates, both of whom promote abortion through all 3 trimesters, but one opposes partial birth abortion, can you vote for the guy who doesn't? After all, he'd be the "lesser evil".

I have not seen a clear positive evil promoted by Trump that would have me not be able to vote for him, but to state that anybody who raises such an argument should be "completely ignored" is utterly absurd.

I must say that I'm concerned, given some of Trump's harsh rhetoric, that Trump might bomb innocent people in the interests of fighting terrorism. That would be a grave evil that I would be responsible for in selecting him at the ballot box.

If electing him can stall what Hillary will do immediately should she win, I'll vote for him.

You say you're concerned that Trump "might bomb innocent people in the interest of fighting terrorism."

Don't you have a family? Yes? Do you want to live under sharia law should enough refugees be deposited into your neck of the woods? Wouldn't you want to be able to defend your wife and children from thugs (especially moslems)? Or perhaps you have already been brainwashed into being a pacifist, I don't know - that seems to be common lately.

OHCA · « **Reply #109 on:** October 26, 2016, 04:36:00 PM »

Casting a vote in an election IS NOT the "lesser of evils" forbidden by the Church. It is not the same as choosing whether to shoot innocent John or innocent Bill. Commoners frequently use "lesser of evils" terminology when talking about politicians. But they're not going into the true "lesser of evils" forbidden by the Church--for one thing, they're too damn stupid to even understand it--they just mean they're voting for the one they perceive to be less of a shit-ass, or who the perceive to be slightly more capable of two imbeciles. I think you've heard such talk so much that you now think you're dealing with a true lesser of evils situation when you really are not.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #110 on:** October 26, 2016, 05:14:28 PM »

Quote from: Alexandria

If electing him can stall what Hillary will do immediately should she win, I'll vote for him.j

Nope. Simply attempting to "stall ... Hillary" does not suffice to justify a Catholic voting for him. Catholics do not apply "ends justifies the means" (aka "lesser evil") moral reasoning.

Quote from: Alexandria

Or perhaps you have already been brainwashed into being a pacifist, I don't know - that seems to be common lately.

No, it's more that you have been brainwashed into being a non-Catholic when it comes to principles. You cannot take innocent human life in order to save other human life.

You guys don't even know the rudiments of Catholic moral theology. Shameful.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #111 on:** October 26, 2016, 05:15:31 PM »

Quote from: OHCA

Casting a vote in an election IS NOT the "lesser of evils" forbidden by the Church.

It most certainly can be, depending on the candidates involved. Stop promoting your non-Catholic idiocy. You have no earthly idea of what you speak.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #112 on:** October 26, 2016, 05:22:20 PM »

Quote from: hollingsworth

Lad:
Quote
but "lesser of two evils" is utterly abhorrent to Catholic moral reasoning.

Ladislaus, let us be clear: You are voting for Trump? You are not voting for Trump? Which is it?
Enough of the "Catholic moral reasoning" swill!

You are an abomination. Now you call the application of Catholic moral principles to the act of voting "swill". You have exposed yourself before; this just completes the picture.

Again, simple distinctions fail you. Because I object to "lesser of two evils" reasoning does not mean I cannot vote for Trump. Depends on whether Trump is evil, now, doesn't it? Not personally evil, but evil in terms of the positions he's taken. Personal evil puts him into "unworthy candidate" status. If he takes positively evil positions, then depending on what they are, a Catholic MAY still vote for him if in fact all the criteria might apply for pursuing a good which might have unintended secondary consequences (double effect).

This isn't about the material process of voting for Trump, but the formal moral decision making process, which appears to elude 99.9% of all Traditional Catholics.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #113 on:** October 26, 2016, 05:25:23 PM »

Every Catholic needs to read the following:

http://catholicism.org/lesser-of-two-evils.html

You need de-brainwash from the secular media and re-center yourself in Catholicism when it comes to voting.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #114 on:** October 26, 2016, 05:29:09 PM »

So far I believe that I can vote for Trump ... if nothing else than under the principle of double effect.

Alexandria · « **Reply #115 on:** October 26, 2016, 06:28:56 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Alexandria
If electing him can stall what Hillary will do immediately should she win, I'll vote for him.j

Nope. Simply attempting to "stall ... Hillary" does not suffice to justify a Catholic voting for him. Catholics do not apply "ends justifies the means" (aka "lesser evil") moral reasoning.

Quote from: Alexandria
Or perhaps you have already been brainwashed into being a pacifist, I don't know - that seems to be common lately.

No, it's more that you have been brainwashed into being a non-Catholic when it comes to principles. You cannot take innocent human life in order to save other human life.

You guys don't even know the rudiments of Catholic moral theology. Shameful.

Woe is me.

St Ignatius · « **Reply #116 on:** October 26, 2016, 06:44:53 PM »

Quote from: sedevacantist3

If you vote Hitlery you are not Catholic...

I really wish one wouldn't compare this diabolical candidate (Killary) to Hitler. For if one knows the true history of things, one wouldn't do so. As a matter of fact, if Hitler was running today, I'd vote for him! :shocked:

Quote

The other main issue is nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr candidate vs anti nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr......

And this was the main reason the Jews declared war against Hitler!

sedevacantist3 · « **Reply #117 on:** October 26, 2016, 06:53:29 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: sedevacantist3
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: OHCA
I hate seeing somebody as smart as Ladislaus getting duped into thinking that picking between political candidates would ever but RARELY be a strictly forbidden "lesser of evils" proposition.

I am not being duped. I distinguish between unintended secondary effect and "lesser evil". End result might be the same, materially speaking, but the reasoning is Catholic in the former case and decidedly non-Catholic in the latter.

If you vote Hitlery you are not Catholic, she supports abortion..Trump doesn't , so there's no debate. If Trump was pro choice then you could argue lesser than 2 evils. The other main issue is nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr candidate vs anti nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr......in any event even if Trump wins I see him getting whacked

I never cease to be astonished by how many Catholics have been brainwashed by the modern secular view on politics rather than looking at it from the perspective of Catholic principles. And the secular dialectic rests upon non-Catholic moral reasoning (lesser of two evils, utilitarianism, pragmatism, etc.) It's as if Catholics can apply moral principles when it comes to personal sin, but the minute they start thinking politics, that all goes out the window and they put on their Protestant neocon caps.

It's absolutely false that because Trump is (allegedly) pro life that there's "no debate". Of course there's no debate that one cannot vote for Hillary. Question is whether one can vote for Trump. So, for instance, if Trump promotes other positions that are evil, one cannot vote for him. I have yet to see that, so I remain inclined to vote Trump. No, I would never, nor should any Catholic ever, "argue lesser than [sic] two evils". You could conceivably argue "double effect", but "lesser of two evils" is utterly abhorrent to Catholic moral reasoning.

the only people brainwashed are those who would vote Hitlery...if you go back the past 2 decades there was never a good option..you should have stayed home
now
there is no lesser of 2 evils in this election, that's my point...it's evil Hitlery vs imperfect trump who doesn't want world war 3 and is not pro abortion, anti open borders...you can not find an evil position by Trump so what's the dilemma? vote Trump and move on to other issues

hollingsworth · « **Reply #118 on:** October 26, 2016, 07:12:40 PM »

Lad:

Quote

So far I believe that I can vote for Trump ... if nothing else than under the principle of double effect.

You've got 13 or 14 days. As those days wind down, I trust, your "Catholic moral principle" meter won't go off. How does it work, BTW? Does a red danger light flash? Does a buzzer go off? Where can one get one of these moral meters? on Amazon, perhaps. LOL

Ladislaus · « **Reply #119 on:** October 27, 2016, 08:19:08 AM »

Quote from: sedevacantist3

there is no lesser of 2 evils in this election, that's my point...

And that's fine if one thinks that.

Quote from: sedevacantist3

you can not find an evil position by Trump so what's the dilemma? vote Trump and move on to other issues

That's the point of this thread, asking if anyone knows of an evil position taken by Trump.

Closest thing is that I don't trust him not to prosecute unjust wars / military actions at the behest of a certain group.