Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Politics and World Leaders => Topic started by: graceseeker on September 05, 2017, 11:27:43 AM
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The DACA program should be ended. I have no doubts or reservations a bout that. But what I find odd and am not in total agreement with is what should be done with t he (now adults) who are already here who were under that program.
I think it is bizarre they should have to go live in Mexico when they haven't known any country but the US. Maybe that is not what is being proposed but it sounds like some are suggesting that
There should be no more applications but the ones who have only known this country (most of their lives) should be allowed to stay as long as they don't violate our laws...
that's my opinion until I am dissuaded from it by some piece of information I do not yet have
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I think you could introduce a path to permanent residency or even citizenship. Everyone who's a part of this had a parent overstay a visa or something else - the child, today's adults, were just five or six. They all work and if they commit even one felony, they're out.
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I think you could introduce a path to permanent residency or even citizenship. Everyone who's a part of this had a parent overstay a visa or something else - the child, today's adults, were just five or six. They all work and if they commit even one felony, they're out.
I assume this applies to children of illegal immigrants, not just those who overstay visas??
in any case, the child should not be punished by what "adults" have done to control said child's world.
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Overstaying a visa is a form of illegal immigration.
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Slippery slope here.
If parents want total control of their children (which I believe is what God intended) without government interference then yes the sins of the fathers will be visited upon the children, and the children will pay the price.
We can't have it both ways.....but I guess that is politically incorrect.
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Slippery slope here.
If parents want total control of their children (which I believe is what God intended) without government interference then yes the sins of the fathers will be visited upon the children, and the children will pay the price.
We can't have it both ways.....but I guess that is politically incorrect.
then we should get rid of "child protective" agencies run by the govt
and child abuse should not be litigated or punished?
hey, i hate cps so i dont have a problem with abolishing it. But we cannot let children be abused
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nothing much is ever said about the illegals who brought their children here. Were they deported and left their children behind?
I'll be glad when this storm is over so we can get some info on this kind of thing, assuming we ever do
I mean, it seems like there is much information missing from any given topic or story---------
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then we should get rid of "child protective" agencies run by the govt
and child abuse should not be litigated or punished?
hey, i hate cps so i dont have a problem with abolishing it. But we cannot let children be abused
Cps behaviour aside, in this case of children of illegals, how can it be child abuse if the
children are deported with their parents? The family is still intact.
We may not like where they are going but the parents are connected to that culture and no
matter how much the children are Americanized you can be sure they were still brought
up in the parents culture.
We can't be all things to all people. If we try we'll be nothing to everybody.
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My thoughts? This:
http://thehirschfiles.blogspot.com/2017/09/oklahomas-daca-bishops-want-to-sell-out.html (http://thehirschfiles.blogspot.com/2017/09/oklahomas-daca-bishops-want-to-sell-out.html)
(http://thehirschfiles.blogspot.com/2017/09/oklahomas-daca-bishops-want-to-sell-out.html)
My headline:
"Oklahoma's DACA Bishops Want To Sell Out Oklahomans"
Canon212's headline for my article:
"Dear Okie DACA Bishops: FrancisSaint Fr. Stanley Rother didn't bring in 'unsustainable' floods of poor illegal aliens. He went to them."
Ha ha ha! :laugh1: :laugh2: :laugh1:
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I assume this applies to children of illegal immigrants, not just those who overstay visas??
in any case, the child should not be punished by what "adults" have done to control said child's world.
If the children are returned to their country of citizenship, they are not being punished for what adults have done. They are living with the consequences of what has been done to them.
If a man robs a bank and is sent to prison, do the children get to keep the money? Or do the children have to live with the consequences of having their father sent to prison?
When a person does something evil or breaks a law, others often--almost always--live with the consequences of those actions. Children always live with the consequences of their parents' actions.
Either the U.S. has laws governing immigration or the U.S. should just let anyone in who wants to live in the country. If the U.S. is going to restrict immigration, the laws in place should be followed.
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Cps behaviour aside, in this case of children of illegals, how can it be child abuse if the
children are deported with their parents? The family is still intact.
We may not like where they are going but the parents are connected to that culture and no
matter how much the children are Americanized you can be sure they were still brought
up in the parents culture.
We can't be all things to all people. If we try we'll be nothing to everybody.
i agree.
I think if the parents are deported, the children probably should be... and yet I don't know.. I have a lot on my mind lately and probably am missing something b/c very distracted.
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I assume this applies to children of illegal immigrants, not just those who overstay visas??
in any case, the child should not be punished by what "adults" have done to control said child's world.
Birth in the United States = Citizenship in the United States.
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From the US Conference of Catholic Bishops;
"It is preposterous to claim that justice for immigrants isn't central to Catholic teaching. It comes directly from Jesus Himself in Matthew 25, 'For I was hungry and you gave me food…a stranger and you welcomed me.' Immigrants and refugees are precisely the strangers we must welcome. This isn't Catholic partisanship. The Bible is clear: welcoming immigrants is indispensable to our faith.
Caring for and about the 'Dreamers' is nothing more than trying to carry out that seemingly simple, but ultimately incredibly demanding, commandment. It is a commandment found throughout Sacred Scripture, reaching back to the Hebrew scriptures, including Leviticus, 'when an alien resides with you in your land, do not mistreat such a one' (Lv. 19:33). In fact, the Church has been pro-immigration since God called Abram to leave Ur: 'Go forth from your land, your relatives, and from your father's house to a land that I will show you' (Gn. 12:1). To suggest otherwise is absurd.
The witness of the Catholic bishops on issues from pro-life to pro-marriage to pro-health care to pro-immigration reforms is rooted in the Gospel of Jesus Christ rather than the convenient political trends of the day. We are called not to politics or partisanship, but to love our neighbor. Let's reject the forces of division that insist we make a false choice between our safety and our humanity. It is both possible and morally necessary to secure the border in a manner which provides security and a humane immigration policy.
Our pro-immigration stance is based on fidelity to God's word and honors the American dream. For anyone to suggest that it is out of sordid motives of statistics or financial gain is outrageous and insulting."
http://www.usccb.org/news/2017/17-159.cfm (http://www.usccb.org/news/2017/17-159.cfm)
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I agree the bible tells us how to treat a stranger in our land but it seems the bible is talking about strangers one at a time not tens of thousands. That's close to an invasion.
Was Aguinas' thoughts on immigration against the bible?
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I agree the bible tells us how to treat a stranger in our land but it seems the bible is talking about strangers one at a time not tens of thousands. That's close to an invasion.
Was Aguinas' thoughts on immigration against the bible?
From Paul's Letter to the Hebrews;
2 and remember always to welcome strangers, for by doing this, some people have entertained angels (http://www.catholic.org/saints/angel.php) without knowing it.
http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=65&bible_chapter=13 (http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=65&bible_chapter=13)
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From Paul's Letter to the Hebrews;
2 and remember always to welcome strangers, for by doing this, some people have entertained angels (http://www.catholic.org/saints/angel.php) without knowing it.
http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=65&bible_chapter=13 (http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=65&bible_chapter=13)
Of course, since illegal immigrants are law-breakers by definition, the angels that some people have entertained are fallen angels.
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Aren't we always hearing about how "rich" other cultures are, so much so that they're encouraged to be incorporated into the Conciliar in every way possible?
Then there's the secular. Same thing, always "celebrating diversity" and "cultures" no matter what it is save the Catholic so, what's the beef?
Seems cruel to not send people, and especially children to their native "Big Rock Magic Candyland of Mystery, Wonder, and Amazement." and, hey, if these beautiful treasure cultures include, for example, bleeding out chickens and eating neighbors, then who are we to judge, no?
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Of course, since illegal immigrants are law-breakers by definition, the angels that some people have entertained are fallen angels.
Hey man I'm gonna break in, steal your stuff and maybe your woman if she takes my fancy, so don't you dare forget....
... Paul's Letter to the Hebrews;
2 and remember always to welcome strangers, for by doing this, some people have entertained angels (http://www.catholic.org/saints/angel.php) without knowing it.
http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=65&bible_chapter=13 (http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=65&bible_chapter=13)
... see? I'm not a scuмbag, I'm an "angel"
You're welcome. I would say you should pay me but you won't have money. "Angel's" gotta eat too.
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I understand that now Trump and the leaders of Congress have reached a deal on a continuation of DACA.
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There is a difference between a traveling stranger and an a lawless invader.
But know this ye, that if the goodman of the house knew at what hour the thief would come, he would certainly watch, and would not suffer his house to be broken open
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Judith Miller (not crazy about her) says we need to get something done in Congress for the sake of the Dreamers and... some other group of folks i cannot recall
Those libs... they never do say We need to get something done for t he AMERICAN people
it's always illegals first and such rot
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Of course, since illegal immigrants are law-breakers by definition, the angels that some people have entertained are fallen angels.
So you attribute criminality to small children? Is it possible to be in a state of 'criminality' and receive absolution from the priest in confession?
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There is a difference between a traveling stranger and an a lawless invader.
"and remember always to welcome strangers, for by doing this, some people have entertained angels (http://www.catholic.org/saints/angel.php) without knowing it."
Paul's Letter to the Hebrews13:2
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"and remember always to welcome strangers, for by doing this, some people have entertained angels (http://www.catholic.org/saints/angel.php) without knowing it."
Paul's Letter to the Hebrews13:2
I wouldn't call law breakers and boundary disrespecters "angels"
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I wouldn't call law breakers and boundary disrespecters "angels"
Many times I have heard of small children being referred to as angels.
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So you attribute criminality to small children? Is it possible to be in a state of 'criminality' and receive absolution from the priest in confession?
Don't they have priests in Mexico who can absolve them? Why must we endure their crime sprees and nasty asses here before they decide to seek absolution? They should probably seek absolution for thieving our resources (welfare, free education, etc) while they're at it. Hopefully their penance will be that they contribute to the wall fund.
Do you have anymore mish-mash liberal gibberish that you care to share with us. You're either a left leaning neo-con or an outright liberal. At least you're consistent with the same brand of religion and politics. :barf:
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Don't they have priests in Mexico who can absolve them? Why must we endure their crime sprees and nasty asses here before they decide to seek absolution? They should probably seek absolution for thieving our resources (welfare, free education, etc) while they're at it. Hopefully their penance will be that they contribute to the wall fund.
Do you have anymore mish-mash liberal gibberish that you care to share with us. You're either a left leaning neo-con or an outright liberal. At least you're consistent with the same brand of religion and politics. :barf:
I mostl6y agree
but the thing is that the children really are innocent of wrong doing and no one should be punished for the crimes/sins of the parents.
I think we should do something between deportation and full citizenship... not one or the other
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I mostl6y agree
but the thing is that the children really are innocent of wrong doing and no one should be punished for the crimes/sins of the parents.
I think we should do something between deportation and full citizenship... not one or the other
Do you think God is fair that all of us children of Adam are punished as a result of the singular sin of Adam?
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Do you think God is fair that all of us children of Adam are punished as a result of the singular sin of Adam?
I really don't see where that is entirely relevant?
the fact of the matter is that we are not Russia or North Korea
people have to come before "ideology" or ...?
now if people willfully violate the law, they should suffer the consequences.
if you will recal Hillary's excuse was that she didn't INTEND to violate US security. If she can make that excuse (and there is no such excuse allowed for treason and crimes of that nature) then I think we can make such an "excuse" for innocent children (now grown) who had NO control over what was happening to them. I don't see why that is so hard to understand?
We cannot abuse people and justify it with "ideology" or "policy" (abuse being different from punish justifiably)
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I mostl6y agree
but the thing is that the children really are innocent of wrong doing and no one should be punished for the crimes/sins of the parents.
I think we should do something between deportation and full citizenship... not one or the other
And doesn't the Bible say "The sins of the fathers shall be visited upon his children"?
Are we trying to be more generous than God?
Rules are rules and laws are laws for a purpose both God's and man's and breaking them
has consequences
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And doesn't the Bible say "The sins of the fathers shall be visited upon his children"?
I really don't see where that is entirely relevant?
the fact of the matter is that we are not Russia or North Korea
people have to come before "ideology" or ...?
now if people willfully violate the law, they should suffer the consequences.
if you will recal Hillary's excuse was that she didn't INTEND to violate US security. If she can make that excuse (and there is no such excuse allowed for treason and crimes of that nature) then I think we can make such an "excuse" for innocent children (now grown) who had NO control over what was happening to them. I don't see why that is so hard to understand?
We cannot abuse people and justify it with "ideology" or "policy" (abuse being different from punish justifiably)
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God's Word is not relevant???????????
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God's Word is not relevant???????????
oh please
you sound like a Protestant
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I really don't see where that is entirely relevant?
the fact of the matter is that we are not Russia or North Korea
people have to come before "ideology" or ...?
now if people willfully violate the law, they should suffer the consequences.
if you will recal Hillary's excuse was that she didn't INTEND to violate US security. If she can make that excuse (and there is no such excuse allowed for treason and crimes of that nature) then I think we can make such an "excuse" for innocent children (now grown) who had NO control over what was happening to them. I don't see why that is so hard to understand?
We cannot abuse people and justify it with "ideology" or "policy" (abuse being different from punish justifiably)
Russia and North Korea are irrelevant to this issue.
How are are we abusing anyone? Sending a person to his legal homeland is not abuse. A person has no right, morally or legally, to live in the United States.
Speaking of "hard to understand", I don't see why you seem to think that not living in the United States is "punishment".
And doesn't the Bible say "The sins of the fathers shall be visited upon his children"?
It certainly does.
Of course, for many liberals, the very Word of God is anathema--and not relevant to any argument...even a moral argument.
The argument advanced by graceseeker is excactly the same argument advanced by proponents of abortion. They also say that "forcing" a woman to carry an "unwanted" baby in her womb is punishment. Consider those who say that abortion should be legal when pregnancy is the result of a rape. They say the very same thing graceseeker says about DACA: That such woman are completely innocent and shouldn't be "punished" [by being forced to carry her unborn baby to term].
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Speaking of "hard to understand", I don't see why you seem to think that not living in the United States is "punishment"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdSYhwLENvM
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Don't they have priests in Mexico who can absolve them? Why must we endure their crime sprees and nasty asses here before they decide to seek absolution? They should probably seek absolution for thieving our resources (welfare, free education, etc) while they're at it. Hopefully their penance will be that they contribute to the wall fund.
Do you have anymore mish-mash liberal gibberish that you care to share with us. You're either a left leaning neo-con or an outright liberal. At least you're consistent with the same brand of religion and politics. :barf:
For every 'bad' child that you can find I can find 100 good children. They are in school. They are valedictorians and honor students. they are doing all the things that they are supposed to do as good children doing the right thing. You don't like it when you are being painted with the same brush as the local riff raff.
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Do you think God is fair that all of us children of Adam are punished as a result of the singular sin of Adam?
I think that it si wrong for us to be gratuitously nasty to children
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And doesn't the Bible say "The sins of the fathers shall be visited upon his children"?
Are we trying to be more generous than God?
Rules are rules and laws are laws for a purpose both God's and man's and breaking them
has consequences
"Let the children come to me." - Jesus
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oh please
you sound like a Protestant
It is not Protestant to be in communion with the Word of God.
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For every 'bad' child that you can find I can find 100 good children. They are in school. They are valedictorians and honor students. they are doing all the things that they are supposed to do as good children doing the right thing. You don't like it when you are being painted with the same brush as the local riff raff.
They have no rights to our resources--school, welfare, healthcare, etc. govt cheese--NADA rights. I doubt many are valedictorians as you reference. But any who are have taken the slot and the prizes that go with it from legal citizens. And I assure you that you couldn't show me 100 model "citizen" illegals for every pos illegal in my area.
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They have no rights to our resources--school, welfare, healthcare, etc. govt cheese--NADA rights. I doubt many are valedictorians as you reference. But any who are have taken the slot and the prizes that go with it from legal citizens. And I assure you that you couldn't show me 100 model "citizen" illegals for every pos illegal in my area.
This is right.
The stupid looks from those women aside, this youtube sums it up in under a minute.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1osOsfniPg
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It is not Protestant to be in communion with the Word of God.
“The joint prayer of Lutherans and Catholics from Finland is a humble but faithful sharing in the prayer of Jesus, who promised that every prayer raised to the Father in his name would be heard. This indeed is the royal door of ecuмenism: such prayer leads us to look at the Kingdom of God and the unity of the Church in a fresh way; it reinforces our bonds of communion…” Benedict XVI's Address to members of the Finnish Ecuмenical Delegation 18JAN000008 via L’ Osservatore Romano 30JAN30000008, p. 10 emph. DZP
“Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ! We are gathered, Orthodox Christians, Catholics and Protestants – and together with us there are also some Jєωιѕн friends – to sing together the evening praise of God… This is an hour of gratitude for the fact that we can pray together in this way and, by turning to the Lord, at the same time grow in unity among ourselves… Our koinonia [communion] is above all communion with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit; it is communion with the triune God, made possible by the Lord through his incarnation and the outpouring of the Spirit. This communion with God creates in turn koinonia among people, as a participation in the faith of the Apostles…” Benedict XVI's Ecuмenical Vespers Address 12SEP000006 via L’Osservatore Romano 20SEP000006 p. 10 emph DZ P
Not even the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg. (http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/anti-pope-benedict-xvi/#_edn33)
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It is not Protestant to be in communion with the Word of God.
it is protestant to believe that YOUR personal interpretation of the Word of God is THE interpretation (meaning what God intended)
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Just to be clear as to where I am coming from:
Illegals who brought their children here should be deported
their children who have grown up here and have never known (to speak of) any other way of life or country should NOT be deported, except that most parents will obviously w ant to take their children w/ them when they are deported. Or maybe they will w ant to leave them here so that some day when the Ds are in power or something else changes, they will be given citizenship or the possibility of it.
I say they should NEVER get citizenship or anything remotely like it. Just b/c their children are not deported and have some green card or whatever it would be called... does not mean the illegals should get Anything from the USA at all.
they violated our laws and should be punished just like an American would be for violating our laws AND deported
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it is protestant to believe that YOUR personal interpretation of the Word of God is THE interpretation (meaning what God intended)
My personal interpretation of the Word of God is the same as the magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church.
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Just to be clear as to where I am coming from:
You've failed readers seeking clarity.
I say they should NEVER get citizenship or anything remotely like it. Just b/c their children are not deported and have some green card or whatever it would be called... does not mean the illegals should get Anything from the USA at all. they violated our laws and should be punished just like an American would be for violating our laws AND deported
You have muddled plural personal pronouns by overuse; I've italicized the confusing ones. Indeed, the first and final "they" really apply not only to the parents, but also to the "children"--and I strongly support such an interpretation. But elsewhere, you've rejected exactly that sensible--and just--interpretation.
As a practical matter, newly blessing the uninvited illegally arrived foreign "children" as legal residents of the U.S.A. automatically confers the legal privilege to petition the U.S. Gov't to issue a pair of often-contrived family reünification visas, which would legally bless a permanent return to the U.S.A. by exactly the illegal-immigrant parents who might have recently or in the near future been deported, but whom advocates of the existing DACA claim they'd prevent from obtaining "citizenship or anything remotely like it". I write "contrived" because return of the "children" to their native land to rejoin their parents is practically never considered an acceptable option for family reünification, is it?
And after being legal family reünified residents for 5 years, the parents can apply to permanently receive permanent income under U.S. entitlement programs, including food stamps, Medicare, and some Social Security programs. All of the entitlements delivered by federal or state social workers who are employed (itself a de facto ethnic entitlement that imposes extra costs on federal and state budgets) to provide the foolishly generous new host country's benefits to the uninvited foreigners in their native languages (because the foreign recipients never accepted that learning English was a moral obligation to the host country). Oh! Adult "children" are not limited to reünification that permanently admits a pair of foreign parents into the U.S.A.; the "children" can also petition for brothers, sisters, aunts, and uncles, all permanently entitled to receive generous benefits from the U.S.A.--the only limit is the "children's" audacity.
So "just to be clear", quite contrary to the arguments you presented advocating renewal of DACA, there is no way that's guaranteed to prevent "the illegals" from "get[ting] Anything from the USA at all".
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I think it is unfair to the immigrants wwho do things the right way to legitimize any of the illegals or their children. If making some allowance for daca people would encourage illegal immigration and it would... well... again, it is unfair to the people who do things legally.
I am still in the process of making my mind up on this issue. I feel I need more info than what I have.. I have not had time to read the paper or watch news these days, so excuse any ignorant sounding comments
but at this point, I say America First, which means, let's focus on Americans and their problems and as to the illegals
well
illegal=illegal
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I don't mean to derail this thread but what about what I'll call the legal illegals.
I'll try to explain.
Several years ago I heard of women from the middle east, about 8 months pregnant, coming to a
women's hospital in NY to have their babies. When the child was born they were looked after by
people from the middle east living in NY until the birth certificates arrived.
They then got on a plane and went home with their newborn US citizen.
We probably won't hear from them again for 18-20 years.......but then what?
How can this be legal?
I can't remember which magazine I read this in.
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I don't mean to derail this thread but what about what I'll call the legal illegals.
I'll try to explain.
Several years ago I heard of women from the middle east, about 8 months pregnant, coming to a
women's hospital in NY to have their babies. When the child was born they were looked after by
people from the middle east living in NY until the birth certificates arrived.
They then got on a plane and went home with their newborn US citizen.
We probably won't hear from them again for 18-20 years.......but then what?
How can this be legal?
I can't remember which magazine I read this in.
Chinese women have been doing this also
it is a disgrace. No one should become a citizen like that. A baby is obviously dependent on an "adult" and we need to know that these adults are safe and not America haters