Author Topic: Thomas Jefferson (Read 8883 times)

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #30 on:** August 07, 2010, 11:46:49 AM »

Quote from: Trinity

It is so typical of people to cross by on the other side of the road.

It is no more typical than to see people completely ignore evidence because of disordered attachments (which is another way of just 'walking past').

Both are common because we are talking about things that come rather naturally to fallen man. If something doesn't affect us directly, personally, we tend to not give a damn. That is also why the world-wide meltdown, which is as plain as the nose on your/my/his/every face, has yet to elicit a rational response from the whole in the formerly-Christian West -- too many are still not 'feeling' it.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #31 on:** August 07, 2010, 12:00:57 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

The guest historian also mentioned that in those days there were only 3 degrees and no rituals, those started later with the Masons.

This is misdirection for the uneducated masses.

Like it or lump it, the only thing that keeps a man from being a child of his age is...the Catholic Faith.

While all of those involved in founding our nation might not have been as messed up as Ben Franklin, who had more illegitimate children than you can shake a stick at, they were, each in his own way, products of their age -- and, in their shoes, I would have been, too. [Franklin, BTW, was undeniably very intelligent and talented -- he was also undeniably filthy, something he probably tried to overcome.]

Just as our world has been on fire with increasingly-insane ideas since before I was born, so was the world into which our country and those who founded it were born. They possessed virtues and merits, and part of justice is to give credit where it is due. They also had notable blind spots...which is totally understandable, considering the world into which they were born and raised.

Trinity · « **Reply #32 on:** August 07, 2010, 12:22:44 PM »

Yes, it is justice I am trying for here. These attacks on the founding fathers/ this attack on America as having been conceived in sin, are actually attacks on our esteem as Americans, on our dignity as Americans and affection for our country, which Our Lady indicated we should have.

By turning our eyes away from these things, we allow the sepsis to grow. This is not only an injustice to those who stand accused, but an injustice to each and every one of us. We have each been attacked whether we realize it or not. We have each been wounded. Demoralized.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #33 on:** August 07, 2010, 12:35:07 PM »

To point out that there are flaws -- in the founders, the founding docs, etc -- is hardly an attack, in and of itself. Sure, one could mention such things in an attacking manner, but the mere mention is not necessarily an attack.

We should not love our nation because it is perfect, or the founders were flawless...but because it is the land of our birth, etc.

Does a man love his wife because she is flawless? No. Does a mother love her child because he is without flaw or stain of sin? No.

Justice seeks to give credit where it is due, but it does not seek to whitewash reality in order to do so.

The so-called Enlightenment was a terrible era. Bad ideas were flowing like a river...and the men who founded this nation, during that troubled era, were affected (in some cases, to a notable degree) by the spirit of the society in which they moved.

Just because the enemies of truth and decency seek to demoralize by spreading lies, perhaps (in some cases) mixed with less-than-flattering truths, does not mean the antidote is to act as if all is perfect and well-ordered -- as it is not.

Alexandria · « **Reply #34 on:** August 07, 2010, 12:55:22 PM »

Gladius, for all of your above posts:

:applause:

And for this one:

Quote

It is no more typical than to see people completely ignore evidence because of disordered attachments (which is another way of just 'walking past').

Both are common because we are talking about things that come rather naturally to fallen man. If something doesn't affect us directly, personally, we tend to not give a damn. That is also why the world-wide meltdown, which is as plain as the nose on your/my/his/every face, has yet to elicit a rational response from the whole in the formerly-Christian West -- too many are still not 'feeling' it.

:applause: :applause:

Trinity · « **Reply #35 on:** August 07, 2010, 01:07:26 PM »

Eamon, you are fighting your battle inside my battle, which I wish you wouldn't do.

You do make a good point about not loving someone less because of their faults. For those who are mature, this is true. It is also true that they do fall somewhat in our esteem when we see those faults and many even toss out the whole because of the perceived faults.

If we really believed that Jesus was the illegitimate son of a prostitute, would we hold Him as high as we do? If we really believe that America was founded by protestant devils, would we find any good in her? For most people, no. We can say oughtta, coulda, shoulda all day, but in our hearts we would think and feel something else.

I believe that we should base our judgment on the actual case in point. Is gov't of the people, by the people and for the people actually evil? Where is the evil in it? Radical Catholics will say it is evil because it is not a Catholic Monarchy. But they would also say the treatment my Jєωιѕн doctor gave me was bad because it was not Catholic.

Where is the due in that?

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #36 on:** August 07, 2010, 01:29:04 PM »

You may see two battles that are unrelated, but I do not. So...

As for our government, the political philosophy which serves as the foundation thereof is radically flawed. Go figure, as the men who came up with the various ideas were rather disordered, intellectually and morally. No, this is not a swipe at the founding fathers, but is in reference to men like Rousseau, et alii.

While there is nothing wrong, in and of itself, with representative government, whatever form of government we choose must be conformed to reason and the dictates of what has been revealed. The government of the USA does not so conform -- and it never has. To be fair, there are some excellent ideas mixed in with those that are problematic. Such is life in the vale of tears, but it does no good to act as if the flaws are not present. In this case, they are radical and fatal to the whole, however much good it contains.

Consider your household when your children were young: Would you ever consider asking them what they think the rules should be? That would be insane, yet that is the idea involved in 'popular sovereignty', 'consent of the governed', etc. Just as such a method of governing a home would be absurd, so it is absurd when applied to a nation -- which, in a very real sense, is just a really big home.

While I cannot confirm what so-called "radical Catholics" would say, it matters not...as there are none involved in the present discussion.

FWIW, defending Jefferson, for example, against detraction or calumny, is not actually related to defending the principles of US government. This is plain, yet, oddly enough, when Matto tried to kindly point out that he thought you might be unwittingly and innocently confounding the two, you said he was wrong, etc. Now, you are, for whatever reason, making it look as if his initial comment was not so far fetched.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #37 on:** August 07, 2010, 01:31:40 PM »

Quote from: Trinity

Radical Catholics will say it is evil because it is not a Catholic Monarchy. But they would also say the treatment my Jєωιѕн doctor gave me was bad because it was not Catholic.

Where is the due in that?

As no one is actually saying such things, we need not be too concerned with that at the moment.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #38 on:** August 07, 2010, 01:39:43 PM »

Make no mistake: We have come to the present crossroads because the rats have exploited the cracks within the system -- cracks that existed from the very beginning. The cure will not be found in trying to go back 230 years. The problems, in the formerly-Christian West, started much earlier, and we must address the root causes if we are to see a return to health.

Trinity · « **Reply #39 on:** August 07, 2010, 02:00:43 PM »

I'm not trying to "fix" the gov't here, Eamon, I'm trying to fix the demoralization of people.

Normally the human heart finds degraded what has been degraded---whether by truth or falsehood. We esteem besmirched things less.

OJ Simpson was acquitted, but he never was exonerated. Maybe making excuses for him would be giving him his due, but probably we'll never really like the guy again. Some who have so faithlessly treated the friendship and trust that was given to them, are never salvagable again.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #40 on:** August 07, 2010, 02:11:19 PM »

Quote from: Trinity

I'm not trying to "fix" the gov't here, Eamon, I'm trying to fix the demoralization of people.

I did not claim you are trying to fix it. You asked me whether it is a problem. Yes, it is.

Considering that the vast majority of people still cherish the liberal ideas that serve as the foundation for our nation, yet are, at the same time, notably demoralized, it is clear that exposing the truth about our nation's foundation is not the cause of the demoralization. Our problems, and the cause of our demoralization, run much deeper.

Quote

Some who have so faithlessly treated the friendship and trust that was given to them, are never salvagable again.

Why, whatever do you mean? :wink:

Trinity · « **Reply #41 on:** August 07, 2010, 02:37:50 PM »

Not so, Eamon. At least not entirely. This attack on the beginnings of America is turning many against her. I have no doubt you could "fix" the gov't, working from the mistakes of the founding fathers. But I'm sure some clever devil will be able to find a way around your masterpiece, too. Look, even the great Catholic Church, built on the perfection of God Himself, is now in eclipse.

You started it. :rolleyes:

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #42 on:** August 07, 2010, 02:39:56 PM »

Such is life in this vale of tears, my dear.

As for "starting it", why not grow up and leave such games and phrases to the children? I have refrained, and will continue to refrain, from discussing the matter in detail. If I did so, it would not go as you seem to think.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #43 on:** August 07, 2010, 02:44:02 PM »

Quote from: Trinity

This attack on the beginnings of America is turning many against her.

Her present behavior is doing far more damage and those who detest our actions are right to do so, even if many are coming at it from the wrong perspective, etc.

Trinity · « **Reply #44 on:** August 07, 2010, 03:04:07 PM »

Thank you for your assistance, Eamon. You have helped this thread greatly.