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Author Topic: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP  (Read 250608 times)

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Offline Boru

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Re: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP
« Reply #180 on: September 20, 2025, 04:53:26 PM »
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  • So, now you say you agree with what I have been saying this entire time? I quoted this to Matthew on September 10th, in the original Charlie Kirk thread, as you can see here:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/politics-and-world-leaders/charlie-kirk-shot-at-event-at-utah-valley-university/msg998358/#msg998358

    In fact, in my post just before this one I said "we cannot pray publicly for that dead heretic." But you have been loudly and very publicly announcing that you are praying for Charlie Kirk. That is what is not allowed. If you want to pray for him privately (so no one else knows) that is your prerogative. What is not allowed is causing scandal by publicizing your prayers. Why? Because, as many of us have told you over and over, to do so appears to contradict EENS, which would undermine the primary reason that a non-Catholic would need to convert to the Catholic Faith.

    Below is the section from 1917 Canon Law that states the same thing.


    And notice that the language says it is "not prohibited." This implies that it is "not encouraged." But it is lawful to do it.
    Angelus, public prayer means the Church. For individuals to privately pray for him and encourage other people to pray for him or to pray for him as a family with friends, is not public prayer unless we gather together publicly in the name of the Church. And the very reason we are praying for him is so that he was granted the great grace of a miraculous conversion before he died. There is no time with God. And this does not undermine "No salvation outside the Church".

    Forgive my ignorance but what does EENS mean?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP
    « Reply #181 on: September 20, 2025, 05:01:53 PM »
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  • Angelus, public prayer means the Church. For individuals to privately pray for him and encourage other people to pray for him or to pray for him as a family with friends, is not public prayer unless we gather together publicly in the name of the Church. And the very reason we are praying for him is so that he was granted the great grace of a miraculous conversion before he died. There is no time with God. And this does not undermine "No salvation outside the Church".

    Forgive my ignorance but what does EENS mean?

    No, Boru. Public prayer means public. You totally miss the point why "private" prayer is okay and "public" prayer is not. As the Canon law quote said in relation to the Mass, it is to avoid scandal. It scandalizes the faithful and can be an obstacle to conversions if those outside the Church are treated in the same way as those inside the Church.

    You can't retroactively pray for the grace of conversion of a person who is already deceased.

    EENS = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus


    Offline Boru

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    Re: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP
    « Reply #182 on: September 20, 2025, 07:10:35 PM »
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  • No, Boru. Public prayer means public. You totally miss the point why "private" prayer is okay and "public" prayer is not. As the Canon law quote said in relation to the Mass, it is to avoid scandal. It scandalizes the faithful and can be an obstacle to conversions if those outside the Church are treated in the same way as those inside the Church.

    You can't retroactively pray for the grace of conversion of a person who is already deceased.


    Sorry, declaring Im going to pray for a soul is not public prayer. It's simply sharing my intentions and encouragement for people to do the same. I'm not doing it publicly here on the forum.

    St. Padre Pio says you can retroactively pray for the grace of conversion. God lives in the eternal present. Just as every mass is THE Mass.

    Offline The Mrs

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    Re: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP
    « Reply #183 on: September 20, 2025, 07:14:31 PM »
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  • Sorry, declaring Im going to pray for a soul is not public prayer. It's simply sharing my intentions and encouragement for people to do the same. I'm not doing it publicly here on the forum.

    St. Padre Pio says you can retroactively pray for the grace of conversion. God lives in the eternal present. Just as every mass is THE Mass.
    I also thought you could pray retroactively because with God, there is no time.  He always knew we would pray for the conversion of the deceased.  I still pray the green scapular prayer for some relatives that have died.
    Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP
    « Reply #184 on: September 20, 2025, 08:00:48 PM »
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  • Sorry, declaring Im going to pray for a soul is not public prayer. It's simply sharing my intentions and encouragement for people to do the same. I'm not doing it publicly here on the forum.

    St. Padre Pio says you can retroactively pray for the grace of conversion. God lives in the eternal present. Just as every mass is THE Mass.
    You just want to make up your own religion. If “public” means what you say it means, then what is the purpose of the restriction? Explain it. 

    And show me the quote where Padre Pio said that. I don’t believe it. The state of the person’s soul is set at death. That is Church teaching. 


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP
    « Reply #185 on: September 20, 2025, 08:15:44 PM »
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  • I also thought you could pray retroactively because with God, there is no time.  He always knew we would pray for the conversion of the deceased.  I still pray the green scapular prayer for some relatives that have died.
    With God there is no time. But with man there is time. And when your time is up, there is no more chance for conversion. 

    If the relatives died outside the Church, you know what the Church says. Follow the Church’s teaching. That is all we can do. 

    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP
    « Reply #186 on: September 20, 2025, 10:07:42 PM »
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  • ...And show me the quote where Padre Pio said that. I don’t believe it. The state of the person’s soul is set at death. That is Church teaching.

    https://st-padre-pio.fr/padre-pio-et-lefficacite-de-la-priere-au-fil-du-temps-pourquoi-nous-pouvons-prier-pour-les-defunts-et-les-ames-du-purgatoire-la-toussaint-et-le-mois-de-novembre


    "...He often said that it was necessary to pray for the deceased, even if they had been dead for many years, because God, as the master of time, can use such prayers at any time in their lives.

    One day, a woman came to see Padre Pio and asked him if it made sense to pray for her grandfather - who had died  many years past -  because he had not been particularly religious in his life. He replied, “God is the master of time, with Him there is no time as we know it.  Pray for your grandfather, and God will be able to apply your prayers as if he were still at the end of his life.”

    These words greatly surprised the woman. But Padre Pio explained that God hears prayers in eternity and that He can use them for the deceased during his life, even in his last moments...."
    ****
    This reminds me of a story from England(?).
      A man had just died in the hospital and he found himself standing at the precipice of hell. Fire and smoke. Jesus appeared beside him and said: " I cannot help you". Then He added:" Your family is now praying in a room, praying the Rosary for you." He repeated:"I cannot help you."

    Miraculously the man came back to life through Our Lady's intercession. The man made a confession, and a soul was saved that day. Not sure, but I think he lived about four years longer, and lived very devoutly, praying Rosaries.
    There are other stories similar to this one, where the dead regain life, confess etc., and are asked to choose what comes next. Amazing graces+



    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP
    « Reply #187 on: September 20, 2025, 10:24:52 PM »
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  • https://st-padre-pio.fr/padre-pio-et-lefficacite-de-la-priere-au-fil-du-temps-pourquoi-nous-pouvons-prier-pour-les-defunts-et-les-ames-du-purgatoire-la-toussaint-et-le-mois-de-novembre


    "...He often said that it was necessary to pray for the deceased, even if they had been dead for many years, because God, as the master of time, can use such prayers at any time in their lives.

    One day, a woman came to see Padre Pio and asked him if it made sense to pray for her grandfather - who had died  many years past -  because he had not been particularly religious in his life. He replied, “God is the master of time, with Him there is no time as we know it.  Pray for your grandfather, and God will be able to apply your prayers as if he were still at the end of his life.”

    These words greatly surprised the woman. But Padre Pio explained that God hears prayers in eternity and that He can use them for the deceased during his life, even in his last moments...."
    ****
    This reminds me of a story from England(?).
      A man had just died in the hospital and he found himself standing at the precipice of hell. Fire and smoke. Jesus appeared beside him and said: " I cannot help you". Then He added:" Your family is now praying in a room, praying the Rosary for you." He repeated:"I cannot help you."

    Miraculously the man came back to life through Our Lady's intercession. The man made a confession, and a soul was saved that day. Not sure, but I think he lived about four years longer, and lived very devoutly, praying Rosaries.
    There are other stories similar to this one, where the dead regain life, confess etc., and are asked to choose what comes next. Amazing graces+
    Ok, we'll see if Kirk comes back to life and converts. 


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP
    « Reply #188 on: September 21, 2025, 12:46:32 PM »
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  • https://st-padre-pio.fr/padre-pio-et-lefficacite-de-la-priere-au-fil-du-temps-pourquoi-nous-pouvons-prier-pour-les-defunts-et-les-ames-du-purgatoire-la-toussaint-et-le-mois-de-novembre


    "...He often said that it was necessary to pray for the deceased, even if they had been dead for many years, because God, as the master of time, can use such prayers at any time in their lives.

    One day, a woman came to see Padre Pio and asked him if it made sense to pray for her grandfather - who had died  many years past -  because he had not been particularly religious in his life. He replied, “God is the master of time, with Him there is no time as we know it.  Pray for your grandfather, and God will be able to apply your prayers as if he were still at the end of his life.”

    These words greatly surprised the woman. But Padre Pio explained that God hears prayers in eternity and that He can use them for the deceased during his life, even in his last moments...."
    ****
    This reminds me of a story from England(?).
      A man had just died in the hospital and he found himself standing at the precipice of hell. Fire and smoke. Jesus appeared beside him and said: " I cannot help you". Then He added:" Your family is now praying in a room, praying the Rosary for you." He repeated:"I cannot help you."

    Miraculously the man came back to life through Our Lady's intercession. The man made a confession, and a soul was saved that day. Not sure, but I think he lived about four years longer, and lived very devoutly, praying Rosaries.
    There are other stories similar to this one, where the dead regain life, confess etc., and are asked to choose what comes next. Amazing graces+

    Those quotes are not directly from the writings of Padre Pio. They are reports of someone else. Those reports may be true or false. They should not be taken at face value without further investigation.

    If it is true that Padre Pio said those things, then he appears to have contradicted de fide dogmas of the Church. I don't believe he did that. The alternative explanation is that the report is incorrect (wishful thinking or intentional sabotage of Padre Pio's legacy, I don't know which). Why should we trust the person who said that Padre Pio said those things? And are we sure that the publication is a trusted source anyway? Again, either the dogma is true or the wishful thinking expressed is true. Never will I doubt a dogma. To do so would be a sin.

    Here are the relevant dogmas and corollary theological conclusions based on those dogmas (according to Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma):

    https://isidore.co/misc/Res%20pro%20Deo/ITOPL_OCR-layer only/5a.%20Dogmatic/Fndmntls%20of%20Cathlc%20Dgma_OCR.pdf

    1. The souls of the just which in the moment of death are free from all guilt of sin and punishment for sin, enter Heaven. [de fide]

    2. The souls of those who die in the condition of personal mortal sin enter Hell. [de fide]

    3. With the arrival of death the possibility of merit or demerit and conversion ceases. [Sent. certa]

    4. Immediately after death, the particular judgement takes place, in which, by a divine sentence of judgement, the eternal fate of the deceased person is decided. [Sent. fidei proxima]


    Offline Fortitude

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    Re: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP
    « Reply #189 on: September 21, 2025, 01:17:03 PM »
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  • https://st-padre-pio.fr/padre-pio-et-lefficacite-de-la-priere-au-fil-du-temps-pourquoi-nous-pouvons-prier-pour-les-defunts-et-les-ames-du-purgatoire-la-toussaint-et-le-mois-de-novembre


    "...He often said that it was necessary to pray for the deceased, even if they had been dead for many years, because God, as the master of time, can use such prayers at any time in their lives.

    One day, a woman came to see Padre Pio and asked him if it made sense to pray for her grandfather - who had died  many years past -  because he had not been particularly religious in his life. He replied, “God is the master of time, with Him there is no time as we know it.  Pray for your grandfather, and God will be able to apply your prayers as if he were still at the end of his life.”

    These words greatly surprised the woman. But Padre Pio explained that God hears prayers in eternity and that He can use them for the deceased during his life, even in his last moments...."
    ****
    This reminds me of a story from England(?).
      A man had just died in the hospital and he found himself standing at the precipice of hell. Fire and smoke. Jesus appeared beside him and said: " I cannot help you". Then He added:" Your family is now praying in a room, praying the Rosary for you." He repeated:"I cannot help you."

    Miraculously the man came back to life through Our Lady's intercession. The man made a confession, and a soul was saved that day. Not sure, but I think he lived about four years longer, and lived very devoutly, praying Rosaries.
    There are other stories similar to this one, where the dead regain life, confess etc., and are asked to choose what comes next. Amazing graces+

    There is no verified letter or primary source where Padre Pio said that. The story only appears in devotional retellings without docuмentation. Until it can be traced to his Epistolario or canonization records, (which will be muddied by the Conciliar church) it cannot be treated as an authentic quotation.

    Consider the source as well as they already have publicly deemed him a Saint, (he most likely is) but this was announced by the Conciliar church.

    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: Padre Pio, Prayers for deceased,
    « Reply #190 on: September 21, 2025, 01:59:46 PM »
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  • You have a valid point. Media et al. have hacked Padre Pio's sayings, prophecies, Prayers, miracles - you name it.  Lads would agree with you totally. 
    I tried to find an "official" looking web site for the quote, hoping it was credible...?

    The faithful departed need our prayers...and prayers are never wasted. God is watching us.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)


    Offline Boru

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    Re: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP
    « Reply #191 on: September 21, 2025, 08:13:43 PM »
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  • If it is true that Padre Pio said those things, then he appears to have contradicted de fide dogmas of the Church......
    Here are the relevant dogmas and corollary theological conclusions based on those dogmas (according to Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma):

    https://isidore.co/misc/Res%20pro%20Deo/ITOPL_OCR-layer only/5a.%20Dogmatic/Fndmntls%20of%20Cathlc%20Dgma_OCR.pdf

    1. The souls of the just which in the moment of death are free from all guilt of sin and punishment for sin, enter Heaven. [de fide]

    2. The souls of those who die in the condition of personal mortal sin enter Hell. [de fide]

    3. With the arrival of death the possibility of merit or demerit and conversion ceases. [Sent. certa]

    4. Immediately after death, the particular judgement takes place, in which, by a divine sentence of judgement, the eternal fate of the deceased person is decided. [Sent. fidei proxima]

    Man lives within time. So all the above no one has a quibble with. However, God lives in the eternal present. He lives outside of time. Who do we pray to? God. Where do our prayers go? Outside time. This is the teaching of the Church. If our prays go outside of time, they can be applied to the time before or at the death of Charlie Kirk. We also know this to be true because the Mass tells us so. Each and every Mass is THE MASS: it is the Last Supper and the Cruxifiction eternally combined. The Crucifixion of Christ is the center point - the turning point (pun intended) of the history of the world. Every time a priest offers Mass, we are supernaturally transcended outside of time to that eternal moment. We literally stand at the foot of the Cross. The Mass is the ultimate prayer.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP
    « Reply #192 on: September 21, 2025, 08:26:18 PM »
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  • Man lives within time. So all the above no one has a quibble with. However, God lives in the eternal present. He lives outside of time. Who do we pray to? God. Where do our prayers go? Outside time. This is the teaching of the Church. If our prays go outside of time, they can be applied to the time before or at the death of Charlie Kirk. We also know this to be true because the Mass tells us so. Each and every Mass is THE MASS: it is the Last Supper and the Cruxifiction eternally combined. The Crucifixion of Christ is the center point - the turning point (pun intended) of the history of the world. Every time a priest offers Mass, we are supernaturally transcended outside of time to that eternal moment. We literally stand at the foot of the Cross. The Mass is the ultimate prayer.
    Maybe, maybe not.  This is all theological speculation.  There's nothing dogmatic or obligatory about it.

    Some of this is new-age mumbo jumbo, like the Mormons, who believe they can baptize their dead ancestors.  God created time because IT MATTERS.  We are all given an allotment of time.  

    Offline Boru

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    Re: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP
    « Reply #193 on: September 21, 2025, 08:38:54 PM »
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  • Maybe, maybe not.  This is all theological speculation.  There's nothing dogmatic or obligatory about it.

    Some of this is new-age mumbo jumbo, like the Mormons, who believe they can baptize their dead ancestors.  God created time because IT MATTERS.  We are all given an allotment of time. 
    But it is not speculation. It is a Catholic truth that prayer is outside of time. This is different to a sacrament which is applied within time. Yes, we are all given an allotment of time. Again, no one is disputing this. Again, I wonder if you are deliberately trying to distort the truth. You keep repeating things that are not even being questioned.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Charlie Kirk PSYOP
    « Reply #194 on: September 21, 2025, 08:47:50 PM »
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  • But it is not speculation. It is a Catholic truth that prayer is outside of time. This is different to a sacrament which is applied within time. Yes, we are all given an allotment of time. Again, no one is disputing this. Again, I wonder if you are deliberately trying to distort the truth. You keep repeating things that are not even being questioned.
    Here's where your logic fails:

    1.  God is outside of time.
    2.  Prayers to God can effect outside of time.
    3.  The sacramentsare applied within time.

    4.  A protestant needs the sacraments to convert IN TIME.
    5.  Prayers cannot provide sacraments necessary for salvation, to someone who has already died.
    6.  There are numerous miracles which show persons who are RAISED FROM THE DEAD to either a) be baptized, b) confess and do penance.

    So until Charlie is raised from the dead, we must assume he died OUTSIDE of the Church.  Prayers cannot provide sacramental grace and it DE FIDE that he needed sacramental graces to convert and be saved.