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Author Topic: Question about Putin and the Crimea  (Read 3692 times)

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Offline MariaCatherine

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Question about Putin and the Crimea
« on: March 23, 2014, 06:21:20 PM »
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  • If the Crimea (which was only made part of the Ukraine in 1954) is mostly pro-Russian, why did Putin send in the military and stage a referendum that offered only 2 choices: join Russia now, or join Russia later?  Because he could?  To taunt NATO?  I know it's complicated, and that there isn't really a good guy in this conflict.
    What return shall I make to the Lord for all the things that He hath given unto me?


    Offline ggreg

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    Question about Putin and the Crimea
    « Reply #1 on: March 23, 2014, 07:11:48 PM »
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  • Because otherwise he might have found NATO ships in Sevastopol if NATO had done a quick deal with the provisional government in Kiev.


    Offline alaric

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    Question about Putin and the Crimea
    « Reply #2 on: March 23, 2014, 07:23:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Because otherwise he might have found NATO ships in Sevastopol if NATO had done a quick deal with the provisional government in Kiev.
    Precisely, it's a chess match. Putin put NATO/Obama in check with Crimea.

    It's their move.

    Offline MariaCatherine

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    Question about Putin and the Crimea
    « Reply #3 on: March 23, 2014, 07:43:31 PM »
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  • What I don't understand is why he used so much force if the Crimeans were supposedly on his side anyway.  I guess to show off what he could get away with.
    What return shall I make to the Lord for all the things that He hath given unto me?

    Offline MariaCatherine

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    Question about Putin and the Crimea
    « Reply #4 on: March 23, 2014, 08:16:43 PM »
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    Because otherwise he might have found NATO ships in Sevastopol if NATO had done a quick deal with the provisional government in Kiev.


    I've got to start finding better sources for news.  I did a google search of nato ships sevastopol to see how long ago this was reported in any of the news sites I visit.  These 3 terms don't seem to have appeared together in any of them.  Any suggestions for good sources would be appreciated.  
    What return shall I make to the Lord for all the things that He hath given unto me?


    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Question about Putin and the Crimea
    « Reply #5 on: March 24, 2014, 02:04:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: MariaCatherine
    What I don't understand is why he used so much force if the Crimeans were supposedly on his side anyway.  I guess to show off what he could get away with.


    That's not using force. He is merely protecting the Russian people and Russia from the U.S/NATO-backed puppet government that was installed after overthrowing a legitimate president of Ukraine, who voted not to be part of the EU, and rather sided with Russia. Crimea was part of Russia longer than America has been a nation. Russia has a treaty to have 25,000 troops in Crimea until 2042 with a 5 year extension option, and to have their Black Sea naval fleet there. They are naturally going to protect their port from Western imperialism. The Western shill media saying Putin is being "aggressive" is like saying a man freely walking around in his own backyard - his own property - is being "aggressive". By the way, you should look up the Kiev snipers who were recruited by the U.S./NATO to stir things up. HERE

    Also, HERE is a good perspective from former U.S. Intelligence Linguist regarding the U.S. orchestrating the overthrow of the Ukrainian government
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline ggreg

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    Question about Putin and the Crimea
    « Reply #6 on: March 24, 2014, 02:41:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: MariaCatherine
    What I don't understand is why he used so much force if the Crimeans were supposedly on his side anyway.  I guess to show off what he could get away with.


    I think you'd be stretched to find any territory in the world over the last 200 years snatched back with less force.

    Offline poche

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    Question about Putin and the Crimea
    « Reply #7 on: March 25, 2014, 05:37:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: MariaCatherine
    If the Crimea (which was only made part of the Ukraine in 1954) is mostly pro-Russian, why did Putin send in the military and stage a referendum that offered only 2 choices: join Russia now, or join Russia later?  Because he could?  To taunt NATO?  I know it's complicated, and that there isn't really a good guy in this conflict.

    Maybe he wanted to get the answer he wanted.


    Offline MariaCatherine

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    Question about Putin and the Crimea
    « Reply #8 on: March 25, 2014, 09:41:26 AM »
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  • Thanks for the links.  I appreciate them.

    Does anyone know what the questions were on the referendum?  I've read that there was no option other than joining Russia.  

    Maybe it was something like a man proposing to a woman he knows will not refuse:  He gives the lady the 'choice' of marrying him now, or later, as he flexes his biceps, assuring her of his baby- and grocery-carrying abilities.  Maybe that's a cultural thing. Nothing wrong with that, except you wouldn't want it to be done publicly, unless you were ... Putin.
    What return shall I make to the Lord for all the things that He hath given unto me?

    Offline poche

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    Question about Putin and the Crimea
    « Reply #9 on: March 25, 2014, 11:06:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: MariaCatherine
    Thanks for the links.  I appreciate them.

    Does anyone know what the questions were on the referendum?  I've read that there was no option other than joining Russia.  

    Maybe it was something like a man proposing to a woman he knows will not refuse:  He gives the lady the 'choice' of marrying him now, or later, as he flexes his biceps, assuring her of his baby- and grocery-carrying abilities.  Maybe that's a cultural thing. Nothing wrong with that, except you wouldn't want it to be done publicly, unless you were ... Putin.

    I am told that there was a choice;
    Join Russia now or Join Russia later.

    Offline crossbro

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    Question about Putin and the Crimea
    « Reply #10 on: March 26, 2014, 01:28:23 AM »
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  • One thing that R Limbaugh was pointing out this morning.

    Russia controls 40% of the natural gas flowing into Europe.

    The end result is that Russia can do whatever it wants without fearing any backlash from Europe. He can turn off the EU as easily as flipping off a light switch.


    Offline ggreg

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    Question about Putin and the Crimea
    « Reply #11 on: March 26, 2014, 02:37:22 AM »
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  • The vast majority voted to join Russia so the other choices are immaterial because the will of the overwhelming majority has been measured.  The turnout was 80 percent and 95% of them voted the same way.  So that is more than 2/3rds of the population.

    Various international observers were there and said the referendum was conducted fairly.

    The second choice was not to join Russia later, but rather to declare Crimea independent so it could make an alliance or union with any state it chose.

    If you are going to bicker about the legality of it then you might as well start unstitching borders and unions all over the world.  It is certainly not as unjust as the countries of Europe surrendering their power and central banks to the EU superstate.

    Offline MariaCatherine

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    Question about Putin and the Crimea
    « Reply #12 on: March 26, 2014, 08:30:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Various international observers were there and said the referendum was conducted fairly.

    The second choice was not to join Russia later, but rather to declare Crimea independent so it could make an alliance or union with any state it chose.


    I'm just saying I can't find sources that confirm these claims. I know you have extensive experience with this, and I appreciate your answers.

    Anyway, I do understand very well that no country has an inherent right to exist beyond its ability to defend itself.
    What return shall I make to the Lord for all the things that He hath given unto me?

    Offline MariaCatherine

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    Question about Putin and the Crimea
    « Reply #13 on: March 26, 2014, 10:09:48 AM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    you might as well start unstitching borders and unions all over the world.  It is certainly not as unjust as the countries of Europe surrendering their power and central banks to the EU superstate.


    Yes, Ukraine could have done exactly what the Russians did in Crimea, but she didn't. I honestly see the fairness of that.

    I know that Ukraine is not much less corrupt than Russia, and that the EU and US forces are responsible for the unrest in Maidan.

    My Estonian father is freaking out, that's why I'm particularly interested in this. I'd like to console him, if I can, by convincing him that his homeland is relatively safe. He's quite shell-shocked, so it might not be possible. Also, he remembers that Russia first had to convince the countries that would become her allies in WWII that she would defend religious liberty. So, he sees any signs of Christianity in Putin as a facade.

    I pointed out to him that Putin doesn't care who's on his side, except the Russian people, and how reasonable that is. If he was nothing more than a facade he would never have imprisoned some punks who desecrated a Cathedral. If only my father wasn't basically a feminist!
    What return shall I make to the Lord for all the things that He hath given unto me?

    Offline MariaCatherine

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    Question about Putin and the Crimea
    « Reply #14 on: March 26, 2014, 10:47:19 AM »
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  • ggreg, I also understand what you've said elsewhere - that the weakness in Ukraine is basically the fault of her tolerance in her own people (for the most part), for corruption. My father knows that (so far) most Estonians don't tolerate this. Maybe that will be all that's needed to console him.
    What return shall I make to the Lord for all the things that He hath given unto me?