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Author Topic: PP gets more $$ under Trump admin than under Obama  (Read 1334 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: PP gets more $$ under Trump admin than under Obama
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2020, 09:53:52 PM »
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  • Just because it’s a federal grant or fund, doesn’t mean the President has control over it.  Maybe he does, maybe he doesn’t.  To automatically infer that Trump is responsible shows a woeful lack of understanding of how complex the Fed bureaucracy is.  Trump is not a king.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: PP gets more $$ under Trump admin than under Obama
    « Reply #16 on: September 10, 2020, 09:59:00 PM »
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  • Quote
    The increase in Planned Parenthood funding is due to Medicaid reimbursement for health services.
    Posted on another thread.  This is certainly part of a law, not an executive/presidential decision. 


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: PP gets more $$ under Trump admin than under Obama
    « Reply #17 on: September 11, 2020, 04:45:50 AM »
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  • I bet that if you took the money that you would have paid in taxes and put it aside into a separate savings account and declare that you'll hand it over the minute Planned Parenthood is defunded, they can't get you for evasion because then it's obvious that you're not doing it just to not pay your taxes, but truly out of principle.
    I have a friend who did something similar. He has withheld tax for about 30 years. He paid his tax money into a trust account held by a bishop with the undertaking that the money will be made available when our government ceases funding abortions. He won his case back in last century. He is disadvantaged however in that he cannot claim any govt. assistance, medical treatments, pensions etc. and struggles to survive, unable to possess a home or a bank account. He could be, with his skills and knowledge, a very wealthy man, but would rather his conscience be clear.

    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: PP gets more $$ under Trump admin than under Obama
    « Reply #18 on: September 11, 2020, 09:25:29 AM »
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  • Just because it’s a federal grant or fund, doesn’t mean the President has control over it.  Maybe he does, maybe he doesn’t.  To automatically infer that Trump is responsible shows a woeful lack of understanding of how complex the Fed bureaucracy is.  Trump is not a king.

    Nope, it's part of the government's annual budget.  Trump has to veto it.  One can be guilty of murder either by commission or by omission.  In the very least, it's murder by omission.  If Trump were to veto it and then it gets overriden, then it's not on him.  Otherwise, it is.  "I will not sign this budget until funding for PP is removed."  He could also use Executive Orders to attempt to cut it off.

    It's objectively a grave sin to vote for Trump under these circuмstances.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: destroys the double effect argument for Trump?
    « Reply #19 on: September 11, 2020, 09:37:04 AM »
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  • How so?

    I just explained.  There are conditions in place for when and how allowing an evil to take place due to double effect is permitted, one of them being proportionality between the intended good and the unintended evil outcome.  So you could argue abortion vs. sodomy, but abortion vs. abortion just doesn't work.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: PP gets more $$ under Trump admin than under Obama
    « Reply #20 on: September 11, 2020, 09:54:56 AM »
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  • Under the Trump Administration, Planned Parenthood performed a record number of abortions from 2018-2019, much of it with taxpayer funding.  And, as this thread indicates the tax contribution increased by a record amount this past year.

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/planned-parenthood-record-abortions-government-funding

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: PP gets more $$ under Trump admin than under Obama
    « Reply #21 on: September 11, 2020, 10:00:44 AM »
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    It's objectively a grave sin to vote for Trump under these circuмstances.
    You’ve gone off the deep end on this.  Ridiculously extreme. 

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: PP gets more $$ under Trump admin than under Obama
    « Reply #22 on: September 11, 2020, 10:02:50 AM »
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  • I have a friend who did something similar. He has withheld tax for about 30 years. He paid his tax money into a trust account held by a bishop with the undertaking that the money will be made available when our government ceases funding abortions. He won his case back in last century. He is disadvantaged however in that he cannot claim any govt. assistance, medical treatments, pensions etc. and struggles to survive, unable to possess a home or a bank account. He could be, with his skills and knowledge, a very wealthy man, but would rather his conscience be clear.
    I have a friend who is a well known pro- life heroine that adopted 7 children with her husband . They make sure that their income is so low as to be non-taxable so they don't pay for abortions. 


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: destroys the double effect argument for Trump?
    « Reply #23 on: September 11, 2020, 10:05:50 AM »
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  • I just explained.  There are conditions in place for when and how allowing an evil to take place due to double effect is permitted, one of them being proportionality between the intended good and the unintended evil outcome.  So you could argue abortion vs. sodomy, but abortion vs. abortion just doesn't work.

    I am wondering if double effect can ever permit an evil when there is no necessity to act?

    The classic example of double effect is five people are tied to one train track, and one person is tied to another train track.  Trains approach the captives on each track.  You are obliged to render assistance, but there is only time to untie those on one track or the other.

    You choose to free the five, even though it will mean the death of the one.

    You do not intend the evil effect to the one, and the good effect is 5x the evil effect (ie., satisfies the proportionality requirement).

    But in this instance, acting was morally necessary and obligatory (ie., one would commit a grave sin to abstain from rendering assistance).

    Voting, when there is no Catholic and/or moral candidate, is not obligatory (ie., there is no moral compulsion to act).

    Therefore, does double effect even apply (ie., in the absence of necessity to act)?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: PP gets more $$ under Trump admin than under Obama
    « Reply #24 on: September 11, 2020, 10:19:17 AM »
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  • Nope, it's part of the government's annual budget.  Trump has to veto it.  One can be guilty of murder either by commission or by omission.  In the very least, it's murder by omission.  If Trump were to veto it and then it gets overriden, then it's not on him.  Otherwise, it is.  "I will not sign this budget until funding for PP is removed."  He could also use Executive Orders to attempt to cut it off.

    It's objectively a grave sin to vote for Trump under these circuмstances.
    He's only tried to defund Planned Parenthood about a dozen times now. The courts and Congress have beaten him back each time. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: PP gets more $$ under Trump admin than under Obama
    « Reply #25 on: September 11, 2020, 12:44:28 PM »
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  • He's only tried to defund Planned Parenthood about a dozen times now. The courts and Congress have beaten him back each time.

    And he continues to sign the budgets that come out with said funding.  This is not enough.  Simple fact is that Trump has signed into law budgets that include many millions of support for Planned Parenthood.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: destroys the double effect argument for Trump?
    « Reply #26 on: September 11, 2020, 12:48:39 PM »
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  • I am wondering if double effect can ever permit an evil when there is no necessity to act?

    The classic example of double effect is five people are tied to one train track, and one person is tied to another train track.  Trains approach the captives on each track.  You are obliged to render assistance, but there is only time to untie those on one track or the other.

    You choose to free the five, even though it will mean the death of the one.

    You do not intend the evil effect to the one, and the good effect is 5x the evil effect (ie., satisfies the proportionality requirement).

    But in this instance, acting was morally necessary and obligatory (ie., one would commit a grave sin to abstain from rendering assistance).

    Voting, when there is no Catholic and/or moral candidate, is not obligatory (ie., there is no moral compulsion to act).

    Therefore, does double effect even apply (ie., in the absence of necessity to act)?

    I'm not quite sure this would be double effect, since the one person who gets run over is not actually a direct effect of anything you actually did -- it's only indirect (by omission), but I'll think about your main point some more and give my thoughts later when I have more time to do it justice.

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: destroys the double effect argument for Trump?
    « Reply #27 on: September 13, 2020, 05:39:52 PM »
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  • I am wondering if double effect can ever permit an evil when there is no necessity to act?
    I've wondered something similar: Does the principle of double-effect apply to supererogatory acts?
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: PP gets more $$ under Trump admin than under Obama
    « Reply #28 on: September 13, 2020, 07:11:33 PM »
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  • "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer." 

    St. Francis of Assisi
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi