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Author Topic: Just ignore Trump's words  (Read 10764 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Just ignore Trump's words
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2024, 09:22:52 PM »
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  • But you can't support Birth Control just as you can't support abortion.  BC is intrinsically evil.  The proportionality test cannot apply.

    See my previous response.  Birth Control is (one) evil EFFECT of the action you're taking, but it isn't the action that you're taking.  You're not trying to USE birth control in order to accomplish some good thing with the double effect of some bad thing.  That's what is meant by an action that's intrinsically wrong not qualifying for liceity under double effect.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #61 on: October 16, 2024, 09:25:41 PM »
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  • Quote
    So the liceity of voting for Trump must be established on its own.  If that, by itself, is evil,
    And i've yet to see why voting for Trump is evil. 

    Most of us voted for Bush Jr the first and second terms.  He promoted birth control in schools, subsidized it in govt insurance plans, started wars, continued wars, etc.  Bush Jr also didn't appoint a lot of good judges (John Roberts is horrible). 

    Trump has not started any wars, though he may help Israel.  How is the Israeli war worse than what Bush did to the Middle East people with the lies about 'weapons of mass destruction'?  Plus Trump has arguably appointed better judges to both SCOTUS and federal areas.

    If voting for Bush wasn't a mortal sin, then it's not wrong for Trump.  Arguably, Trump is better than Bush Jr.  To play devil's advocate, Trump is not any worse.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #62 on: October 16, 2024, 09:27:44 PM »
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  • Quote
    You're not trying to USE birth control in order to accomplish some good thing with the double effect of some bad thing.  That's what is meant by an action that's intrinsically wrong not qualifying for liceity under double effect.
    Ok, yes, that's a better explanation.  Sorry I'm butchering the argument.


    But I'm also not USING abortion to accomplish something good.  Same thing with IVF.  So if BC gets a "pass" then why doesn't IVF/abortion?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #63 on: October 17, 2024, 05:59:34 AM »
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  • This is the type of out-of-touch, head-in-the-clouds, fantasy thinking of many Trads.  It’s directly contrary to last Sunday’s gospel.  You can’t vote for Christ and the answer is non-sensical. 

    Firstly, He’s not an American citizen.  (Although, I’m sure he could *create* a green card without any trouble).

    Secondly, He’s not 35 yrs old.  (He died at the age of 33).  So He’s not even eligible to be President.

    Thirdly, I don’t think He qualifies as a resident of any state.  (Last known place of address was Jerusalem).

    All kidding aside, saying one should vote “For Christ” is just not living in reality.  As the Gospel says, “render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s”.  God created govts to be run by and through mankind.  Govts are part of humanity and the world.  Real life. 

    You can’t marry God, or work for Him, or have lunch with Him, or buy a car from Him.  And you certainly can’t vote for Him.  That’s not how He created the world to operate.
    Thanks for putting it so well Pax!
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #64 on: October 17, 2024, 06:07:28 AM »
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  • Completely false analogy.  When you vote for a candidate, you are a cause of his getting into office (assuming that the vote is not rigged ... which it is).  You do not cause your OBGYN to prescribe birth control.  When you are a cause of some evil, you're a formal cooperator in the evil, whereas the individual would be in material cooperation only with the OBGYN.  Same thing holds if you go to a store or pharmacy that sells birth control (they all do).

    You're obviously not committing a sin by acting as an election official, since elections themselves are not intrinsically evil (but indifferent).  It's like selling guns at a gun shop ... and someone then takes one of the guns he purchased there and uses it for murder.
    Ok, so like you, I believe the vote is rigged. Unlike you, I think they will put the commie woman in......"because Trump."

    So explain how it is a sin to vote for either crook when the outcome is already decided? And explain how it is a sin to vote for Trump, if/when Trump looses?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline NishantXavier

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #65 on: October 17, 2024, 06:48:35 AM »
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  • Good discussion. And nice to see that it's mostly pleasant.

    I've considered the possibility too. Just recently, President Trump posted on X/Truth Social a post praising Polish Catholic martyr and priest who died giving a heroic resistance to Communism. Others posted that that priest Fr. Jerzy Popieluzko led an atheist Communist to convert on the spot because that former KGB agent could no longer believe anyone could withstand such painful torture and demonstrate such heroic virtue without some inner supernatural strength. So that was a good testimony, and Trump highlighting this clearly shows he is, at the least, favorable and friendly to the Catholic Church and Her rights, and that his second administration will continue the pro-life and pro-Church policy of the first. It should be noted his VP nominee JD Vance is a devout pro-life Catholic. Trump has also posted the St. Michael's prayer and wished Mother Mary a happy birthday. He is at least friendly to Catholicism though, of course, a little confused about abortion. Or maybe, since he ended Roe v Wade after all, and as this thread speculates, he firmly intends to be really pro-life once he gets into office but needs to appear moderate to be elected. We have to remember even Gorsuch, when being confirmed, appeared to reaffirm Roe but then destroyed it.


    Offline B from A

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #66 on: October 17, 2024, 08:12:58 AM »
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  • ...Most of us voted for Bush Jr the first and second terms.  He promoted birth control in schools, subsidized it in govt insurance plans, started wars, continued wars, etc.  Bush Jr also didn't appoint a lot of good judges (John Roberts is horrible). 

    Trump has not started any wars, though he may help Israel.  How is the Israeli war worse than what Bush did to the Middle East people with the lies about 'weapons of mass destruction'?  Plus Trump has arguably appointed better judges to both SCOTUS and federal areas.

    If voting for Bush wasn't a mortal sin, then it's not wrong for Trump.  Arguably, Trump is better than Bush Jr.  To play devil's advocate, Trump is not any worse.

    You make a good case against voting for "lesser-of-2-evils"-Bush, which is why I didn't.


    Ok, so like you, I believe the vote is rigged. Unlike you, I think they will put the commie woman in......"because Trump."

    So explain how it is a sin to vote for either crook when the outcome is already decided? And explain how it is a sin to vote for Trump, if/when Trump looses?

    I don't understand why people want to compromise, even take the chance that it might be a sin, if the outcome is already decided.  All these arguments might appeal to me more if I thought there was any reality to our 'selection'.  But why bother, especially in very 'blue' states where he doesn't stand a chance, why bother taking the risk that maybe it might displease Our Lord, when my vote won't make a difference anyway?  :confused: 





    Offline M1913

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #67 on: October 17, 2024, 11:03:57 AM »
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  • Ok, so like you, I believe the vote is rigged. Unlike you, I think they will put the commie woman in......"because Trump."

    So explain how it is a sin to vote for either crook when the outcome is already decided? And explain how it is a sin to vote for Trump, if/when Trump looses?
    The answer is clear: both candidates support the atrocity of abortion. Catholics cannot compromise on such fundamental issues.

    Reading through the comments in this thread, I wonder—if the scenario were this: Kamala openly supports the complete destruction of the Eucharist, while Trump only supports defiling it in minor ways—what would the response be?

    Lord, have mercy on us.







    Offline M1913

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #68 on: October 17, 2024, 11:07:23 AM »
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  • Good discussion. And nice to see that it's mostly pleasant.

    I've considered the possibility too. Just recently, President Trump posted on X/Truth Social a post praising Polish Catholic martyr and priest who died giving a heroic resistance to Communism. Others posted that that priest Fr. Jerzy Popieluzko led an atheist Communist to convert on the spot because that former KGB agent could no longer believe anyone could withstand such painful torture and demonstrate such heroic virtue without some inner supernatural strength. So that was a good testimony, and Trump highlighting this clearly shows he is, at the least, favorable and friendly to the Catholic Church and Her rights, and that his second administration will continue the pro-life and pro-Church policy of the first. It should be noted his VP nominee JD Vance is a devout pro-life Catholic. Trump has also posted the St. Michael's prayer and wished Mother Mary a happy birthday. He is at least friendly to Catholicism though, of course, a little confused about abortion. Or maybe, since he ended Roe v Wade after all, and as this thread speculates, he firmly intends to be really pro-life once he gets into office but needs to appear moderate to be elected. We have to remember even Gorsuch, when being confirmed, appeared to reaffirm Roe but then destroyed it.
    Your points remind me of the devil's classic tactic: using a bit of truth to lure us into sin, as seen in the diabolical deception of Faustina or the false apparitions at Medjugorje. In both cases, some truth or piety was presented, yet they ultimately led people away from true Catholic teaching.

    Trump’s recent posts about Catholic martyrs, the St. Michael prayer, and even honoring Mary might seem like signs of respect for the Church, but we need to recognize this for what it is—a calculated strategy to win Catholic support. It’s a bait-and-switch, using these gestures to sway us into overlooking his moral inconsistencies, particularly on issues like abortion.
    We cannot afford to be deceived by partial truths or friendly gestures. The devil often disguises lies with bits of truth to tempt souls into compromise. Similarly, a candidate who uses Catholic symbols and rhetoric to gain our vote while remaining unclear on critical moral issues is attempting to win our consent under false pretenses. As Catholics, we must reject this manipulation and stand firm on non-negotiable principles.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #69 on: October 17, 2024, 11:30:54 AM »
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  • The answer is clear: both candidates support the atrocity of abortion. Catholics cannot compromise on such fundamental issues.
    M1913: Did you find the links to the sources that support Fr Hewko's assertion in your post #33 that:

    "....numerous bishops and traditional clerics who support the position that voting for Donald Trump is intrinsically evil due to his stance on issues like abortion. 
    If you choose to dismiss their sources based on your criteria for "prudence," that’s on you." ?

     


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #70 on: October 17, 2024, 12:02:37 PM »
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  • The answer is clear: both candidates support the atrocity of abortion. Catholics cannot compromise on such fundamental issues.

    Reading through the comments in this thread, I wonder—if the scenario were this: Kamala openly supports the complete destruction of the Eucharist, while Trump only supports defiling it in minor ways—what would the response be?

    Lord, have mercy on us.

    If that were the scenario, then I assure you this thread would be completely different.

    But as long as the vote is already fixed and the outcome is already decided, how is it a sin to vote for Trump? 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #71 on: October 17, 2024, 12:28:23 PM »
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  • Quote
    I don't understand why people want to compromise, even take the chance that it might be a sin, if the outcome is already decided.  All these arguments might appeal to me more if I thought there was any reality to our 'selection'. 
    Sure, some things are fixed, but not the whole system.  Otherwise Trump wouldn't have won in 2016.  And Brexit wouldn't have happened in 2015.  *They* don't control everything.  They aren't God.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #72 on: October 17, 2024, 12:30:49 PM »
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  • *They* don't control everything.  They aren't God.
    Such an important point in all of this.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #73 on: October 17, 2024, 12:36:30 PM »
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  • Sure, some things are fixed, but not the whole system.  Otherwise Trump wouldn't have won in 2016. 

    :facepalm: ... Trump won in 2016 becaue he was supposed to win and they wanted him to win.

    Offline M1913

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #74 on: October 17, 2024, 12:39:17 PM »
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  • M1913: Did you find the links to the sources that support Fr Hewko's assertion in your post #33 that:

    "....numerous bishops and traditional clerics who support the position that voting for Donald Trump is intrinsically evil due to his stance on issues like abortion. 
    If you choose to dismiss their sources based on your criteria for "prudence," that’s on you." ?

     
    While I chose to overlook your initial post, I will address your current inquiry regarding Fr. Hewko's assertion.

    I provided videos where Fr. Hewko discusses his stance on voting, including his condemnation of both hαɾɾιs and Trump. If you have not yet taken the time to watch them, I encourage you to do so to fully understand his position. The sources and reasoning are there, and it's crucial to approach this matter with diligence.

    In another post, I highlighted the following, which serves as a foundational understanding for any Catholic on this topic:

    To thoroughly reject the notion of voting for the "lesser of two evils," we turn to Traditional Catholic sources that emphasize moral absolutes and uncompromising adherence to Church teachings on cooperation with evil:

    1. St. Thomas Aquinas on Cooperation with Evil
      St. Thomas Aquinas provides a foundational argument against choosing any evil, regardless of its degree. He teaches, “No one is permitted to commit sin, even for the sake of avoiding a greater sin or obtaining a greater good” (Summa Theologiae, II-II, Q. 78, Art. 1). The principle here is clear: choosing the lesser of two evils still involves committing an evil act, which is never permissible. Aquinas’s teaching underscores that we cannot engage in moral wrongdoing, even with the intent of achieving a supposedly greater good.
    2. Pope Pius XI in Casti Connubii
      Pope Pius XI, in his encyclical Casti Connubii (1930), condemns abortion as a grave evil that Catholics must oppose without compromise. He states: “In this matter, Catholics cannot allow themselves to be guided by mere expediency but must obey the dictates of the moral law.” This directive is not limited to abortion; it applies to all actions that conflict with the moral law. Voting for a candidate who supports any form of abortion, even if perceived as the lesser evil, amounts to indirect cooperation with evil, which Catholics must reject.
    3. Pope Pius XII on the Dangers of Moral Compromise
      Pope Pius XII emphasized the Church’s duty to uphold moral truth without compromise. In his Allocution to the Congress of the Italian Catholic Jurists (December 6, 1953), he proclaimed, “The good end does not make right an action which is in itself wrong.” This means that even if a candidate’s election might lead to certain good outcomes, voting for them still involves endorsing moral wrongs. This statement directly refutes the idea of supporting a lesser evil, as it reveals how this approach leads Catholics to justify morally unacceptable actions for perceived benefits.
    4.Pope St. Gregory the Great on Leadership and Moral Integrity
      Pope St. Gregory the Great advised against selecting leaders who fail to uphold moral principles. In his Pastoral Rule, he emphasizes, “It is better that scandals arise than the truth be suppressed.” Here, he underscores the need for Catholics to uphold moral truth at all costs. Supporting a candidate who promotes or tolerates grave evils like abortion constitutes a form of moral surrender. St. Gregory’s words call Catholics to choose leaders who are fully aligned with Catholic values, not merely lesser evils.
    5. Catholic Moral Theology on the Misapplication of the Double Effect Principle
      The principle of double effect does not justify voting for a morally compromised candidate. According to Traditional Catholic moral theology, this principle applies only when the bad effect is not directly willed, and there is no other way to achieve a necessary good. In the case of voting, however, Catholics knowingly endorse a candidate with morally flawed positions, which constitutes direct cooperation with evil. Therefore, the double effect principle does not provide cover for voting for the lesser evil.

    Traditional Catholic teaching, as seen in the works of St. Thomas Aquinas, Pope Pius XI, Pope Pius XII, and Archbishop Lefebvre, is unequivocal: Catholics cannot choose any evil, even if it is perceived as lesser. Supporting a candidate who endorses intrinsic evils like abortion is incompatible with Catholic principles. Instead, Catholics must seek alternatives that align with moral absolutes and uphold the Faith without compromise. The call is to reject any form of political manipulation that lures Catholics into accepting moral compromises and to remain steadfast in defending the Church’s teachings on non-negotiable issues.


    If you choose to look past these teachings for an idolatrous adoration of Trump, I cannot help that. However, it is vital for all of us to engage with the truth and uphold the teachings of the Faith without compromise.