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Author Topic: Just ignore Trump's words  (Read 10787 times)

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Offline josh987654321

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Re: Just ignore Trump's words
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2024, 07:39:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: B from A on October 16, 2024, 07:17:32 PM
    I've also seen this writeup:

    In terms of the video, he cut off the rest of what J.D. Vance said which was important, he omitted the fact that Trump still calls them out for their radicalism in late term abortion and furthermore, these people have to stop cutting and pasting to suit their own narratives, put it in context and then we can deal with the subject matter, by cutting and pasting like that you lose a lot of credibility.

    God Bless
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    Offline B from A

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #46 on: October 16, 2024, 07:47:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: josh987654321 on October 16, 2024, 07:39:59 PM
    In terms of the video, he cut off the rest of what J.D. Vance said which was important, he omitted the fact that Trump still calls them out for their radicalism in late term abortion and furthermore, these people have to stop cutting and pasting to suit their own narratives, put it in context and then we can deal with the subject matter, by cutting and pasting like that you lose a lot of credibility.

    God Bless

    What did Vance say that got cut out?  :confused:
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    Offline josh987654321

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #47 on: October 16, 2024, 07:51:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: B from A on October 16, 2024, 07:47:24 PM
    What did Vance say that got cut out?  :confused:

    A lot! Talking about the family, that people should be able to raise a family on one income again etc etc, all very important and part of pro-life and moving in the right direction compared to the other... yes I would like them to go further nevertheless, this wasn't going to be turned around overnight and on a dime. Rome wasn't built in a day.

    It's like condemning those pushing for informed consent (ultrasounds to see that they are clearly a human being, they are already a mother, not 'preventing' anything) before having an abortion because they aren't far enough... a step in the right direction is still a step in the right direction, why sabotage it? Yes it's very sad and I too wish they'd go further and we must continue to work and pray for that but don't sabotage ground being made in light of the alternative. Legitimate criticism yes, but blind condemnation especially in light of the alternative is not good.

    Neither should we be lulled to sleep with a false status quo, but you don't have to sabotage yourself either.

    God Bless

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #48 on: October 16, 2024, 07:56:40 PM »
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    The only viable option is to vote for Christ the King.
    This is the type of out-of-touch, head-in-the-clouds, fantasy thinking of many Trads.  It’s directly contrary to last Sunday’s gospel.  You can’t vote for Christ and the answer is non-sensical. 

    Firstly, He’s not an American citizen.  (Although, I’m sure he could *create* a green card without any trouble).

    Secondly, He’s not 35 yrs old.  (He died at the age of 33).  So He’s not even eligible to be President.

    Thirdly, I don’t think He qualifies as a resident of any state.  (Last known place of address was Jerusalem).

    All kidding aside, saying one should vote “For Christ” is just not living in reality.  As the Gospel says, “render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s”.  God created govts to be run by and through mankind.  Govts are part of humanity and the world.  Real life. 

    You can’t marry God, or work for Him, or have lunch with Him, or buy a car from Him.  And you certainly can’t vote for Him.  That’s not how He created the world to operate. 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #49 on: October 16, 2024, 08:00:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: M1913 on October 16, 2024, 05:32:15 PM
    Father Hewko and Father Ruiz reference numerous bishops and traditional clerics who support the position that voting for Donald Trump is intrinsically evil due to his stance on issues like abortion.
    Link with Bishop names and quotes that show they agree with him?
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    Offline josh987654321

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #50 on: October 16, 2024, 08:10:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 16, 2024, 07:56:40 PM
    You can’t marry God, or work for Him, or have lunch with Him, or buy a car from Him.  And you certainly can’t vote for Him.  That’s not how He created the world to operate.

    And even if they somehow got all of that which as you rightly point out is impossible, we have what He did when He was here -

    Jesus therefore, when he knew that they would come to take him by force, and make him king, fled again into the mountain himself alone. - John 6:15

    God Bless
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #51 on: October 16, 2024, 08:11:21 PM »
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    One would be permitted to vote for such a candidate under double effect, since this passes the test of proportionality.
    The test of proportionality is similar to the “lesser of two evils” (in the practical world) even though most people incorrectly articulate the concepts (theoretically speaking).


    Most people say “Oh candidate X isn’t perfect (therefore he’s evil, from a catholic perspective).”  This is theoretically true.  

    But practically, the word “evil” must be defined properly.  I can’t vote for a “lesser evil” but I can vote for a “proportionately less good” candidate.  

    So who decides what is “evil” vs “less good”?  Some of this semantics. 

    If a candidate is 100% pro contraception but I could vote for him based on proportionality, then this also also applies to a candidate that is 100% pro IVF.  

    The Dems have 0 redeeming qualities.  They are literally a score of 0 when it comes to supporting catholic principles or the natural law. 

    Trump gets various scores (good and bad) in the issues.  How does proportionality not apply here?

    As I said earlier, the choice is to vote for a satanist agenda vs a Protestant agenda.  Neither are catholic agendas (and far from it) but the Protestant agenda is proportionately pretty good.  

    And, we’ve had 4 yrs already of some good results.  We have some evidence that Trump's team would do *some* good.  
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #52 on: October 16, 2024, 08:39:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 16, 2024, 08:11:21 PM
    The test of proportionality is similar to the “lesser of two evils” (in the practical world) even though most people incorrectly articulate the concepts (theoretically speaking).


    Most people say “Oh candidate X isn’t perfect (therefore he’s evil, from a catholic perspective).”  This is theoretically true. 

    But practically, the word “evil” must be defined properly.  I can’t vote for a “lesser evil” but I can vote for a “proportionately less good” candidate. 

    So who decides what is “evil” vs “less good”?  Some of this semantics.

    If a candidate is 100% pro contraception but I could vote for him based on proportionality, then this also also applies to a candidate that is 100% pro IVF. 

    The Dems have 0 redeeming qualities.  They are literally a score of 0 when it comes to supporting catholic principles or the natural law.

    Trump gets various scores (good and bad) in the issues.  How does proportionality not apply here?

    As I said earlier, the choice is to vote for a satanist agenda vs a Protestant agenda.  Neither are catholic agendas (and far from it) but the Protestant agenda is proportionately pretty good. 

    And, we’ve had 4 yrs already of some good results.  We have some evidence that Trump's team would do *some* good. 

    Good post PAX!
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #53 on: October 16, 2024, 08:40:45 PM »
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    So, for instance, if you had a candidate who was pro birth control (assuming a non-abortifacient variety) but anti abortion, your vote for the candidate would have the double effect, one good, one bad.  One would be permitted to vote for such a candidate under double effect, since this passes the test of proportionality.
    All birth control, both abortive and preventive, is against the natural law, ergo, it's intrinsically evil in all cases.

    Therefore, every candidate in the last 30 years has failed this test.  Because they've all been either passively or actively pro-birth control.  And they've voted for such, again and again and again, every. single. year. when birth control is part of budgetary bills, and spending bills, so that govt can subsidize such on federally-funded insurance plans.  And federally-funded insurance plans are everywhere...state universities, state public school systems, state medicare/medicaid plans, state retirement plans for federal/state workers (i.e. teachers, politicians, any and all workers in state/local/federal govt).  

    These plans cover MILLIONS of people.  In every state.  And all these plans offer free/reduced birth control.  And without this funding, birth control wouldn't be offered.  It's a DIRECT supporting of evil as you can get.  Vote for this spending/budget bill and you subsidize birth control/intrinsic evil.  This evil is much more far reaching than abortion will ever be.

    Again, if we're going to get technical, then none of us can vote.  And if any of us have voted in the past 30 years, then we're guilty of supporting birth control, which as an intrinsic evil, is just as sinful as abortion or IVF.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #54 on: October 16, 2024, 08:58:08 PM »
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    • All birth control, both abortive and preventive, is against the natural law, ergo, it's intrinsically evil in all cases.

    Therefore, every candidate in the last 30 years has failed this test.  Because they've all been either passively or actively pro-birth control.  And they've voted for such, again and again and again, every. single. year. when birth control is part of budgetary bills, and spending bills, so that govt can subsidize such on federally-funded insurance plans.  And federally-funded insurance plans are everywhere...state universities, state public school systems, state medicare/medicaid plans, state retirement plans for federal/state workers (i.e. teachers, politicians, any and all workers in state/local/federal govt). 

    These plans cover MILLIONS of people.  In every state.  And all these plans offer free/reduced cost birth control.  And without this funding, birth control wouldn't be offered.  It's a DIRECT supporting of evil as you can get.  Vote for this spending/budget bill and you subsidize birth control/intrinsic evil.  This evil is much more far reaching than abortion will ever be.

    Again, if we're going to get technical, then none of us can vote.  And if any of us have voted in the past 30 years, then we're guilty of supporting birth control, which as an intrinsic evil, is just as sinful as abortion or IVF.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #55 on: October 16, 2024, 09:03:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 16, 2024, 08:58:08 PM
    And without this funding, birth control wouldn't be offered.  It's a DIRECT supporting of evil as you can get.  Vote for this spending/budget bill and you subsidize birth control/intrinsic evil.  This evil is much more far reaching than abortion will ever be.

    Again, if we're going to get technical, then none of us can vote.  And if any of us have voted in the past 30 years, then we're guilty of supporting birth control, which as an intrinsic evil, is just as sinful as abortion or IVF.

    Yeah, I'm sure you believe this ... since you've been promoting the liceity of voting for Pro-Abortion Trump.

    That's one argument to be made, but one could vote for someone who's in favor of BC due to double effect since being against abortion would pass the proportionality test.

    This demonstrates that you still have no clue about the principles involved.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #56 on: October 16, 2024, 09:10:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 16, 2024, 08:11:21 PM
    The test of proportionality is similar to the “lesser of two evils” (in the practical world) even though most people incorrectly articulate the concepts (theoretically speaking).

    No.  You're not even close and have absolutely no clue about the principles involved.

    Double effect is a single action that has both good and evil effects, and the litmus test for liceity of a double effect situation is proportionality.  In other words, the good effect cannot be something relatively trivial, whereas the evil effect is grave.  Proportionality is simpley one of 4 standard tests (put forth by Catholic theologians) to determine the liceity of the double effect scenario.

    So we know the textbook case of proportionality where a procedure saves the life of the mother, resulting in the unintended bad / evil effect of losing the child.  But let's say that someone wanted to perform the same procedure (that would result in the loss of the child) in order to spare the mother the hardship of raising a child.  In effect, the Pro Abortion argument is an argument from double effect ... that fails the test of proportionality.

    Lesser evil entails two evil actions, wherein taking the one evil action you're preventing another evil.

    Essentially, the one test of double effect, where the evil action cannot be the cause of the good action, flushes out a diguised end justifies the means from a true double effect situation.

    In voting, you're attempting to prevent the evil of hαɾɾιs getting into office.  HOW or BY WHAT MEANS do you plan on accomplishing that?  By means of voting for Trump (helping Trump get into office).  Consequently, the effect you seek is caused by the means of vorting for Trump.

    So the liceity of voting for Trump must be established on its own.  If that, by itself, is evil, then you're pursuing the good end via an evil means, and it's an end justifies the means scenario and it not licit.

    Some of your minds are so fogged over that you're clearly in some kind of diabolical disorientation unable to think clearly.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #57 on: October 16, 2024, 09:11:30 PM »
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    • The proportionality test cannot be used when an intrinsic evil is involved (i.e. birth control).  
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #58 on: October 16, 2024, 09:16:55 PM »
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    but one could vote for someone who's in favor of BC due to double effect since being against abortion would pass the proportionality test.
    No, this is an example of "lesser of two evils".  Even many Bush-era "conservatives" promoted this idea...let's reduce high school abortions by offering free birth control in schools.  And that's how the rise of birth control began for the younger generations.  And you know what?  It worked.  Abortions dropped a lot.

    But you can't support Birth Control just as you can't support abortion.  BC is intrinsically evil.  The proportionality test cannot apply.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #59 on: October 16, 2024, 09:18:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 16, 2024, 09:11:30 PM
    The proportionality test cannot be used when an intrinsic evil is involved (i.e. birth control). 

    :facepalm:  You're still muddling things.  Whether the action is intrinsically evil and proportionality are to distinct tests of double effect.  They're both considered at the same time.  What you're trying to say is that double effect cannot be in play when the action taken is itself intrinsically evil.

    What action are YOU actually taking in an election?  Using birth control?  No, the action involved in the electoin is VOTING.  Since voting is not evil (indifferent by itself), voting in an election may be considered from the standpoint of a double effect scenario.

    So birth control is not the action you're taking, but rather one of the EFFECTS (an evil one) of the action you're taking.

    Here's a case where birth control would fail a double effect scenario.  We're using birth control because the mother (and child) would die if she conceived.  So, the good effect would be to save the life of the mother.  But since birth control is intrinsically evil, it cannot be used (as the action being performed) for any kind of doubl effect consideration.  Of course, this scenario would fail yet another test, namely, that there's no other non-double-effect scenario that could accomplish the same end ... since abstinence (which has no evil effect) would certainly obtain the same good.
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