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Author Topic: Just ignore Trump's words  (Read 10771 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Just ignore Trump's words
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2024, 11:28:50 AM »
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    1) You absolutely have a moral choice.  There's always a moral choice, and at no point can anyone's free will be violated to make an immoral choice.  But in this case, it's quite simple and requires nothing overly dramatic.  You can simply write in a candidate or refrain from voting.
    I don't believe that voting for Trump is immoral.  You do.  That's where we differ.

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    2) One does not make decisions based upon "practicality" but upon the Catholic principles of moral theology.  That has to be one of the dumbest things you've ever posted.  If an action is immoral based upon Catholic moral principles, you may not do it regardless of "practical" considerations.
    But catholic moral principles say that certain (normally immoral actions) are moral, in extreme cases.  That's because these actions are not implicitly evil and depend on circuмstances.  It's a sin to steal food, but circuмstances of starvation override *normal circuмstances* because the principle to stay alive outweighs the principle of stealing.

    There are countless examples of this type of distinction in moral theology.  When it comes to war and survival, circuмstances change (and override) normal, moral principles.  We're in the middle of a war, like it or not.

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #16 on: October 16, 2024, 02:57:21 PM »
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  • And you (and others here) will be held accountable for promoting that others commit mortal sin.
    Who are you to judge a person's mortal sin?  

    Most people here are making their decision not on just their own stature, but following the suggestions of Father Jenkins, Bishop Sanborn, and Father Radecki, etc.

    The mortal sin would lie to these priests and bishops, not the laity.  I think your zeal for saving souls has overstepped your natural authority.
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #17 on: October 16, 2024, 03:06:18 PM »
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  • And you (and others here) will be held accountable for promoting that others commit mortal sin.
    Huh? Where have I promoted that others commit mortal sin? It's you and others that judge Trump voters as committing mortal sin. I have yet to see one Trump voter do the same to non-voters.  Is there a post I've missed?

    Offline M1913

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #18 on: October 16, 2024, 03:11:56 PM »
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  • Huh? Where have I promoted that others commit mortal sin? It's you and others that judge Trump voters as committing mortal sin. I have yet to see one Trump voter do the same to non-voters.  Is there a post I've missed?
    Encouraging others to vote for either Trump or hαɾɾιs may constitute a sin of omission, as both candidates hold positions that are pro-abortion, which stands in direct opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding the sanctity of life. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #19 on: October 16, 2024, 03:30:25 PM »
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    Encouraging others to vote for either Trump or hαɾɾιs may constitute a sin of omission, as both candidates hold positions that are pro-abortion, which stands in direct opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding the sanctity of life.
    If we want to get technical, every (99%) Federal candidate for office (i.e. Congress, Senate, President, etc) has held that there are "exceptions" for pro-life and abortion (i.e. rape, incest).  These exceptions are in direct opposition to Catholic teaching.

    So, to summarize, 99% of all Federally elected officials (and a very high % of state/local officials too), since 1973 (i.e. Roe vs Wade start) has been anti-catholic.  Which means...if we want to get technical...anyone who has voted (at any time) since 1973, has committed a mortal sin, because you've voted for somebody that has held these anti-natural law exceptions.

    If that's the logic you want to use, then voting is inherently a mortal sin (in America, at this time).  And we're all guilty.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #20 on: October 16, 2024, 03:32:05 PM »
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  • Encouraging others to vote for either Trump or hαɾɾιs may constitute a sin of omission, as both candidates hold positions that are pro-abortion, which stands in direct opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding the sanctity of life.
    Oh, I see what happened. I misunderstood the way the post was phrased.  Thank you. He's charging me (and others who encourage voting for Trump) as promoting others to commit mortal sin.  Got it. Originally, I thought he was saying that Trump voters charge non-voters with mortal sin. 

    Offline M1913

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #21 on: October 16, 2024, 03:33:08 PM »
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  • If we want to get technical, every (99%) Federal candidate for office (i.e. Congress, Senate, President, etc) has held that there are "exceptions" for pro-life and abortion (i.e. rape, incest).  These exceptions are in direct opposition to Catholic teaching.

    So, to summarize, 99% of every Federally elected official (and a very high % of state/local officials too), since 1973 (i.e. Roe vs Wade start) has been anti-catholic.  Which means...if we want to get technical...anyone who has voted (at any time) since 1973, has committed a mortal sin, because you've voted for somebody that has held these anti-natural law exceptions.

    If that's the logic you want to use, then voting is inherently a mortal sin (in America, at this time).
    Absolutely, this "logic" is just Catholic reasoning. 

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #22 on: October 16, 2024, 03:45:43 PM »
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  • I am so confused, now.  :confused:

    Off the internet:

    "In Roman Catholic theology, a mortal sin is a deliberate act that is committed with full knowledge of its gravity and with the full consent of the sinner's will. It is considered the gravest of sins and represents a turning away from God."

    This is why I dislike very much lay catholics throwing "It's a mortal sin" accusation around.  If we don't know, we look to a person who knows more ie Bishop Sanborn, Father Radecki, Father Jenkins, to name a few.  (Please post which priests are saying the opposite, I haven't seen any yet.)

    The laity cannot answer the mortal sin question for others.  All they can do is encourage the sinner to take it up with their husband (if a wife), a parent (if a child under their parent's care), and/or a priest.
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #23 on: October 16, 2024, 03:54:45 PM »
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    Absolutely, this "logic" is just Catholic reasoning. 
    No, it's flawed reasoning, because it ignores distinctions.  To say that every person who has voted since 1973 has committed a mortal sin is beyond stupid.

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #24 on: October 16, 2024, 04:18:43 PM »
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  • To use another analogy:  If your OBGYN tells you that he is anti-abortion, but you find out he endorses birth control, are you going to choose another doctor?  Perhaps you might find a doctor who does not endorse birth control - good luck with that!  Are you not going to shop at Walgreens or Walmart because they sell condoms?  If every grocery store in your neighborhood sells condoms - and they all do - are you going to just grow your own food?  Or are you forced to pick the lesser evil?  This grocery store does not support LGBTQ, even though they do sell condoms, so I will go with them.

    Some of you on here, methinks, will not apply these principles to your own life, but you will apply them to the upcoming presidential race.

    Or more to the point:  I will be an election officer here in Jefferson Co. (Louisville) on Nov 5th.  Let us assume that I do not vote.  Am I committing a mortal sin by working as an election officer, assuming that 90% of the people will vote for either Trump or Kamala. 
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    Offline pnw1994

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #25 on: October 16, 2024, 04:26:37 PM »
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  • To use another analogy:  If your OBGYN tells you that he is anti-abortion, but you find out he endorses birth control, are you going to choose another doctor?  Perhaps you might find a doctor who does not endorse birth control - good luck with that!  Are you not going to shop at Walgreens or Walmart because they sell condoms?  If every grocery store in your neighborhood sells condoms - and they all do - are you going to just grow your own food?  Or are you forced to pick the lesser evil?  This grocery store does not support LGBTQ, even though they do sell condoms, so I will go with them.

    Some of you on here, methinks, will not apply these principles to your own life, but you will apply them to the upcoming presidential race.
    To piggyback off of your analogy. There is a burning schoolhouse full of children. If you do nothing, they are going to die.

    the building is about to collapse. You can run in but you only have the strength to save one child. Do you run in and save one, or, because you can’t save them all, do you save none of them?

    I know the analogy isn’t perfect but maybe it bears some ponderance.

    children are dying by abortion on a daily basis. One candidate approves of some abortions, one candidate approves of all abortions. By voting for the candidate who approves of some abortions rather than the candidate who approves of all abortions, there will be less abortions taking place, moving us closer to the goal of zero abortions.

    I know the analogy doesn’t totally apply to the 2024 election as Trump is also in favour of some other devious things. However I think the analogy is still a decent one. 

    God cannot leave a soul to swim
    That has not first abandoned Him.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #26 on: October 16, 2024, 05:03:13 PM »
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  • To use another analogy:  If your OBGYN tells you that he is anti-abortion, but you find out he endorses birth control, are you going to choose another doctor?  Perhaps you might find a doctor who does not endorse birth control - good luck with that!  Are you not going to shop at Walgreens or Walmart because they sell condoms?  If every grocery store in your neighborhood sells condoms - and they all do - are you going to just grow your own food?  Or are you forced to pick the lesser evil?  This grocery store does not support LGBTQ, even though they do sell condoms, so I will go with them.

    Some of you on here, methinks, will not apply these principles to your own life, but you will apply them to the upcoming presidential race.

    Or more to the point:  I will be an election officer here in Jefferson Co. (Louisville) on Nov 5th.  Let us assume that I do not vote.  Am I committing a mortal sin by working as an election officer, assuming that 90% of the people will vote for either Trump or Kamala.

    Completely false analogy.  When you vote for a candidate, you are a cause of his getting into office (assuming that the vote is not rigged ... which it is).  You do not cause your OBGYN to prescribe birth control.  When you are a cause of some evil, you're a formal cooperator in the evil, whereas the individual would be in material cooperation only with the OBGYN.  Same thing holds if you go to a store or pharmacy that sells birth control (they all do).

    You're obviously not committing a sin by acting as an election official, since elections themselves are not intrinsically evil (but indifferent).  It's like selling guns at a gun shop ... and someone then takes one of the guns he purchased there and uses it for murder.

    Offline M1913

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #27 on: October 16, 2024, 05:04:01 PM »
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  • To piggyback off of your analogy. There is a burning schoolhouse full of children. If you do nothing, they are going to die.

    the building is about to collapse. You can run in but you only have the strength to save one child. Do you run in and save one, or, because you can’t save them all, do you save none of them?

    I know the analogy isn’t perfect but maybe it bears some ponderance.

    children are dying by abortion on a daily basis. One candidate approves of some abortions, one candidate approves of all abortions. By voting for the candidate who approves of some abortions rather than the candidate who approves of all abortions, there will be less abortions taking place, moving us closer to the goal of zero abortions.

    I know the analogy doesn’t totally apply to the 2024 election as Trump is also in favour of some other devious things. However I think the analogy is still a decent one.
    The only viable option is to vote for Christ the King. 

    Offline pnw1994

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #28 on: October 16, 2024, 05:08:53 PM »
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  • The only viable option is to vote for Christ the King.
    Honest question: can anyone who holds the position that it would be intrinsically evil to vote for Donald Trump point to any statement from any traditional Catholic cleric supporting this position. It’s a yes or no question.

    EDIT: I do not consider Father Hewko to be reliable given his extreme lack of judgement and prudence on a slew of other topics so If you quote Father Hewko or Father Ruiz, I will ignore it.
    God cannot leave a soul to swim
    That has not first abandoned Him.

    Offline M1913

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    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #29 on: October 16, 2024, 05:10:47 PM »
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  • To use another analogy:  If your OBGYN tells you that he is anti-abortion, but you find out he endorses birth control, are you going to choose another doctor?  Perhaps you might find a doctor who does not endorse birth control - good luck with that!  Are you not going to shop at Walgreens or Walmart because they sell condoms?  If every grocery store in your neighborhood sells condoms - and they all do - are you going to just grow your own food?  Or are you forced to pick the lesser evil?  This grocery store does not support LGBTQ, even though they do sell condoms, so I will go with them.

    Some of you on here, methinks, will not apply these principles to your own life, but you will apply them to the upcoming presidential race.

    Or more to the point:  I will be an election officer here in Jefferson Co. (Louisville) on Nov 5th.  Let us assume that I do not vote.  Am I committing a mortal sin by working as an election officer, assuming that 90% of the people will vote for either Trump or Kamala.
    Your analogy is flawed because it overlooks a fundamental truth: abortion is a grave sin, and there is no justification for supporting candidates who endorse it, even partially. The Catholic Church teaches that the intentional killing of innocent life is always evil.

    Rationalizing support for candidates like Trump or hαɾɾιs based on their differing stances on abortion is dangerous. Just as indulterers manipulate the “moto proprio” to ignore the validity of the priesthood, supporting these candidates only serves to normalize the murder of innocent children.