Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Just ignore Trump's words  (Read 10757 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 32688
  • Reputation: +28969/-581
  • Gender: Male
Just ignore Trump's words
« on: October 16, 2024, 07:10:11 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • What if Trump is just practicing "the ends justify the means" and saying what he THINKS he needs to say, to get enough votes so he can get into office?
    His softening on Abortion, support for LGBT, even his support for Israel, etc.?

    Here is my interesting theory -- feel free to discuss.

    We should judge (and vote for) Trump as a KNOWN QUANTITY looking mostly at WHAT HE HAS DONE -- given that he was, in fact, president for 4 years.
    Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words. Could a Catholic vote for Trump based on his actions?

    Imagine if someone said, "We can't vote for Trump. We can't let that man have the nuclear codes." I'd be like, "Um....how do I say this...he was president for 4 years already." The same for any other extreme fear porn his enemies might throw out there. Trump WAS president already for a whole term. Trump is not a scary unknown quantity. Not after his first term was served, that is.

    AT THE VERY LEAST, Trump personally having the morality "The ends justify the means", while it's not morally valid, it's certainly not bad enough to forbid Catholics from voting for him under pain of mortal sin. Know what I mean?

    To play devil's advocate here, let's see if voting for Trump could be justified by a good Catholic...

    What a good Catholic would be VOTING FOR by pulling the lever for Trump is another 4 years of Trump as we actually experienced 2016-2020. You know, great economy, more respect on the world stage, tightening of abortion restrictions, reining in of unrestricted illegal immigration (from all countries) over the mexican border, fighting cнιℓd тrαffιcking, appointing of countless conservative (rather than highly liberal) judges, reversing of any/all communist "Green" climate change agendas, opening up of oil drilling, etc., and no new wars/police actions/military operations.

    Yes, Trump didn't get to finish. Remember he was persecuted for many of those 4 years, which kind of throws a monkey wrench in the works, no matter how good you are. Also, he only had 4 years to undo decades of problems. It takes time to "build the wall". Trump most certainly kept his promise. But he only had so much support, and a few short years.

    I think it would be justified for a Catholic to make an argument along these lines.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11425
    • Reputation: +6387/-1119
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #1 on: October 16, 2024, 07:26:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Funny that you're going in this direction.  I have been recently thinking something similar in a more general way. 

    Granted, Trump was never a politician like what we think of as "politician", but perhaps he is acting more like one now.  In that case, we know that ALL politicians might say they will do something that they will never do, and they also might say something they will never do and then do it.....in order to get the votes.

    And yes, we have his first term as a good guide for what he will or will not do.  


    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12109
    • Reputation: +7629/-2305
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #2 on: October 16, 2024, 08:31:03 AM »
  • Thanks!5
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    What a good Catholic would be VOTING FOR by pulling the lever for Trump is another 4 years of Trump as we actually experienced 2016-2020. You know, great economy, more respect on the world stage, tightening of abortion restrictions, reining in of unrestricted illegal immigration (from all countries) over the mexican border, fighting cнιℓd тrαffιcking, appointing of countless conservative (rather than highly liberal) judges, reversing of any/all communist "Green" climate change agendas, opening up of oil drilling, etc., and no new wars/police actions/military operations.

    Yes, Trump didn't get to finish. Remember he was persecuted for many of those 4 years, which kind of throws a monkey wrench in the works, no matter how good you are. Also, he only had 4 years to undo decades of problems. It takes time to "build the wall". Trump most certainly kept his promise. But he only had so much support, and a few short years.
    Agree.  Trump (and team) would've done a lot more had politics not got in the way.  There's a TON of positives.

    The negatives
    1.  Yes, his inner-circle is protestant and they back Israel...but the US govt has been backing Israel for decades now...accept it and move on.  
    2.  Yes, he backed covid shots...but in the beginning, he didn't.  And you can't blame lock-downs on him because that was a state-level decision.
    3.  Backing of covid shots is still a major red flag, but he didn't force anyone to get them and is against any mandates.  His personal stance doesn't affect me.
    4.  He can be both for the natural law and against it.  Well, this is 2024 and most of the world is going to hell in a hand-basket and don't even know what the natural law is.
    5.  Anti-war, pro-america, pro-states rights, pro-life, pro-smaller govt -- As Matthew pointed out, he did make a lot of moves in these areas.  Which is why Dems hate him.

    Yes, we can't vote for an immoral candidate; but I don't think he's immoral, he's just protestant-influenced.  Some good, some bad.  While the Dems are straight Satanic.  In this case, in these times, in this never-been-catholic country we call America...voting for a Protestant over a Satanist...is God going to condemn us for this choice?  I don't think so.  We have to be practical.  We aren't a catholic country (and never have been).  We have to take the best candidate, especially when there's no legitimate third option.

    Offline josefamenendez

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5461
    • Reputation: +4111/-284
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #3 on: October 16, 2024, 08:40:14 AM »
  • Thanks!6
  • No Thanks!0
  • Trump will do EXACTLY as he's told.


    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12109
    • Reputation: +7629/-2305
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #4 on: October 16, 2024, 09:27:51 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ok, let's take the opposite approach (which is probably true).  Both candidates are 100% controlled.  Both candidates are playing the game for their anti-catholic masters.  It's a binary, either-or, political system (practically speaking, voting 3rd party in the Presidential/Senate/Congress race is a throw-away vote.  You might as well not have shown up).  There are no good candidates, from a catholic perspective, because we're living in an anti-moral, anti-God, spiritual wasteland.

    Then...it seems to me...that war-rules apply.  Because this is the current situation - a war against God and Catholics.  And we can't avoid it.  So we act according to (and also taking advantage of) the "relaxation" of "normal society" rules...because there is no "normal society".  The govt is trying to hurt/kill us by all means necessary (i.e. vaccinations, economic war, weather modification, propaganda, polluting the food supply, preparing for famines by controlling small farms, blowing up trains in middle america to control farms, emitting chemicals in the air to force evacuations, etc, etc).

    During war, you're allowed to take food to survive.  You're allowed to use extra precautions for self-defense.  You're allowed to make "practical" decisions to survive.  This also applies to priests and the Church.  (Fr Pro down in mexico was forced to conceal his identity and pause/re-start mass due to persecutions). 

    So, in the case of war...you choose the best candidate that will help you survive.  As long as possible.  The Dems want to create WW3, a nuclear h0Ɩ0cαųst, a global famine/economic wasteland, the death of 3/4ths of humanity.  This is no secret.  Trump's team wants to create a global new-age utopia where everyone loves each other, and there is world peace.  

    Both choices are horrible for the Church and Catholics.  And, yes, the "lessor of two evils" is not allowed.  But in this case, the entire SYSTEM is evil.  There's not just 2 evils; there is evil everywhere.  Evil exists whether we vote or not.  Whether we act or do nothing, the evil will continue.  So, in the practical sense, evil has already triumphed.  It's over.  Only God can fix this.

    As such, we live in a war/military/occupied country.  So survival is the most important (practical) focus.  Thus, you vote for the best chance to survive.  Same concept that Christians used in Rome during the first 3 centuries.  Catholic principles teach us that we are not allowed to "seek out" persecution/martyrdom.  So, we must vote for the candidate which will a) avoid war, b) not try to kill us, c) pay lip-service to the moral law.

    The choice is Death or Survival.  It's shocking how little some of you grasp the depths that the Dems will go to kill you.  


    Offline Gloria Tibi Domine

    • Supporter
    • *
    • Posts: 137
    • Reputation: +109/-69
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #5 on: October 16, 2024, 09:56:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  •   According to some , a soul can't vote against the more dangerous politician because voting for the less dangerous politician means the voter is consenting to all the views of that less dangerous politician. Not true. Do you pay taxes? Sales tax, property tax, income tax, and on and on? Those taxes as you KNOW, are in part funding the perversion taught in public schools, and planned parenthood, and illegal immigration, while at the same time those taxes also fund maintenance of roads, bridges, etc. Do you consent to the perversion your tax money pays for, just because you pay taxes? I didn't think so.

     Put your money where your mouth is. If you won't vote for the less dangerous politician because it would mean you consent to all their perversion, then stop paying taxes, sales tax, income tax, property tax, etc. since you know your taxes fund perversion. But you won't stop paying taxes, although you know taxes are funding perversion and abortion, because the consequences would be immediate and personal. There are no immediate and personal consequences from refusing to vote; just an illusion of being so firm and staunch and holy that you play right into the hand of the enemy; being deceived into inaction, holy hypocrisy, although unwillingly, unknowingly. 

    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12109
    • Reputation: +7629/-2305
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #6 on: October 16, 2024, 10:05:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    There are no immediate and personal consequences from refusing to vote; just an illusion
    I agree with this.  The illusion is, you're making a difference by not voting.  In NORMAL situations, then yes, a protest of not voting would make a statement; it would make the political parties stop and think.  But in the case of where the SYSTEM is controlled, from every angle, then not voting is worse than voting.  Again, the choice is survival vs imminent destruction.

    Quote
    of being so firm and staunch and holy that you play right into the hand of the enemy; being deceived into inaction, holy hypocrisy, although unwillingly, unknowingly. 
    No, I think this is too harsh and it doesn't apply to most people.  Most people's motivation (at least on this site) is trying to do the correct, moral thing.  But in modern politics, there is no moral choice, so you choose practically.

    Also, you're comment about "being deceived into inaction" is not totally applicable either.  Prayer and good works are actions, and mighty ones.  At this point, those are the only actions we have. 

    Offline Mr G

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2375
    • Reputation: +1541/-92
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #7 on: October 16, 2024, 10:07:23 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0


  • Offline Soubirous

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2109
    • Reputation: +1662/-44
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #8 on: October 16, 2024, 10:12:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • According to some , [...]

    Put your money where your mouth is. [...] There are no immediate and personal consequences from refusing to vote; just an illusion of being so firm and staunch and holy that you play right into the hand of the enemy; being deceived into inaction, holy hypocrisy, although unwillingly, unknowingly.

    And some (whether here or elsewhere on tradCath social media) choose to perpetuate the big-fish-small-pond circular firing squad (:fryingpan: to me for mixing metaphors) among others of us whose beliefs and worldview are most similar to their own in every other way aside from politics. There's more than one way to be deceived, and the enemy knows intimately each person's weaknesses, whether that's following the crowd or believing that the crowd can be humanly led to safety contrary to the crowd's own lemming-like choices.

    Put your money where your mouth is, indeed, only if we live each day fully cognizant of our respective words and actions, fully believing we'll each be accountable to God at a sooner moment than we'd assume.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline Gloria Tibi Domine

    • Supporter
    • *
    • Posts: 137
    • Reputation: +109/-69
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #9 on: October 16, 2024, 10:17:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  •   Yes, Pax Vobis, by inaction I meant specifically refusing to vote. Prayer and good works though are not the only actions. There will be occasion for other actions. God isn't a pacifist.

    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12109
    • Reputation: +7629/-2305
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #10 on: October 16, 2024, 10:29:35 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    And some (whether here or elsewhere on tradCath social media) choose to perpetuate the big-fish-small-pond circular firing squad (:fryingpan: title=frying pan to me for mixing metaphors) among others of us whose beliefs and worldview are most similar to their own in every other way aside from politics. There's more than one way to be deceived, and the enemy knows intimately each person's weaknesses, whether that's following the crowd or believing that the crowd can be humanly led to safety contrary to the crowd's own lemming-like choices.

    Put your money where your mouth is, indeed, only if we live each day fully cognizant of our respective words and actions, fully believing we'll each be accountable to God at a sooner moment than we'd assume.
    We live in the world.  We can't ignore the world.  We can contemplate on God all day, but we still have to peel the potatoes for dinner.  


    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11425
    • Reputation: +6387/-1119
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #11 on: October 16, 2024, 10:37:39 AM »
  • Thanks!4
  • No Thanks!2
  • No, I think this is too harsh and it doesn't apply to most people.  Most people's motivation (at least on this site) is trying to do the correct, moral thing.  But in modern politics, there is no moral choice, so you choose practically.
    Yes.  Most people here are doing that.  But there are some who, either by their silence in condemning others when they say it (or possibly upthumbing them) or actually saying it themselves, believe anyone who votes for Trump is committing a mortal sin. Although most posters here won't speak out against this dogmatic belief, I will continue to do so even if it's not welcome.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46600
    • Reputation: +27457/-5070
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #12 on: October 16, 2024, 10:47:08 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!6
  • Although most posters here won't speak out against this dogmatic belief, I will continue to do so even if it's not welcome.

    And you (and others here) will be held accountable for promoting that others commit mortal sin.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46600
    • Reputation: +27457/-5070
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #13 on: October 16, 2024, 10:50:05 AM »
  • Thanks!4
  • No Thanks!3
  • Most people's motivation (at least on this site) is trying to do the correct, moral thing.  But in modern politics, there is no moral choice, so you choose practically.

    False, on two counts.

    1) You absolutely have a moral choice.  There's always a moral choice, and at no point can anyone's free will be violated to make an immoral choice.  But in this case, it's quite simple and requires nothing overly dramatic.  You can simply write in a candidate or refrain from voting.

    2) One does not make decisions based upon "practicality" but upon the Catholic principles of moral theology.  That has to be one of the dumbest things you've ever posted.  If an action is immoral based upon Catholic moral principles, you may not do it regardless of "practical" considerations.

    Offline St Giles

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1452
    • Reputation: +745/-172
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Just ignore Trump's words
    « Reply #14 on: October 16, 2024, 11:21:48 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is there any comparison with Catholics tolerating religious liberty in fact, but not principle?
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"