Author Topic: Is abortion ok if its ment to save mothers life? (Read 1993 times)

Anem · « **on:** August 06, 2016, 09:58:55 AM »

New to this site btw.

I am soon done reading catechism. Only 100 pages left. And i read stuff about abortion and its strictly against it, but does it also mean one cannot do abortion if the mother is in danger of dying from complications?

Either way thanks for the help

Matthew · « **Reply #1 on:** August 06, 2016, 11:25:50 AM »

No. Willful abortion is intrinsically evil under any circuмstances.

Have you researched what "abortion" really means? It's not just an innocent 8-letter word that sounds like clicking the cancel button during a computer file transfer. No harm done, right?

WRONG!

We're talking about KILLING A BABY while it's still in the womb using salt, dismemberment, and/or crushing a baby's skull. We don't need supernatural Faith to know that abortion is seriously wrong. If God (via the Catholic Church) didn't tell us that abortion was wrong, we'd still know that it's wrong using our own natural powers.

All we need is COMMON SENSE -- and the natural law which is written on the hearts of all men. Everyone knows that murder is wrong, and that stealing is wrong.

You can't ever intentionally murder a baby in the womb.

Stubborn · « **Reply #2 on:** August 06, 2016, 11:28:34 AM »

Quote from: Anem

New to this site btw.

I am soon done reading catechism. Only 100 pages left. And i read stuff about abortion and its strictly against it, but does it also mean one cannot do abortion if the mother is in danger of dying from complications?

Either way thanks for the help

Abortion is never ok no matter what the circuмstances are.

Abortion is the murder of the unborn - period. It is willful murder, one of the sins that cry to heaven for vengeance. Those who take part in abortion, ie the mother, father, doctor, nurse etc. are all excommunicated ipso facto. The mother possibly dying from complications never enters into the equation.

Anem · « **Reply #3 on:** August 06, 2016, 11:28:47 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

No. Willful abortion is intrinsically evil under any circuмstances.

Have you researched what "abortion" really means? It's not just an innocent 8-letter word that sounds like clicking the cancel button during a computer file transfer. No harm done, right?

WRONG!

We're talking about KILLING A BABY while it's still in the womb using salt, dismemberment, and/or crushing a baby's skull. We don't need supernatural Faith to know that abortion is seriously wrong. If God (via the Catholic Church) didn't tell us that abortion was wrong, we'd still know that it's wrong using our own natural powers.

All we need is COMMON SENSE -- and the natural law which is written on the hearts of all men. Everyone knows that murder is wrong, and that stealing is wrong.

You can't ever intentionally murder a baby in the womb.

I see. Lets just hope it never comes to it if mother's life is in danger. I can see your point, i trust the church knows what is best for the life of a born life in general.

JezusDeKoning · « **Reply #4 on:** August 06, 2016, 11:44:48 AM »

Now, here's a question I have:

Would it be within teaching that women should be punished for having an abortion? That's what's happening where my parents were born.

Anem · « **Reply #5 on:** August 06, 2016, 11:54:29 AM »

Quote from: JezusDeKoning

Now, here's a question I have:

Would it be within teaching that women should be punished for having an abortion? That's what's happening where my parents were born.

I have background in evangelical lutheran church here in Norway. I think this year they made it legal for gαy marriage.

So i dunno to be honest. I mean if its against the church then some messurement should be made i think, since i too dont consider new born life a play thing in general. Trump from what i know says there should be some form of punishment on the person who does it (which sounds mostly fair)

But the problem is you cant really stop abortion if some individual does it like "Falling down stairs" for example. I think the best way is to explain the value of a newborn life and the other part of making it illegal or have some form of punishment for someone who does abortion is likely the best option in my personal view.

Mark 79 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 06, 2016, 12:35:42 PM »

Quote from: Anem

New to this site btw.

I am soon done reading catechism. Only 100 pages left. And i read stuff about abortion and its strictly against it, but does it also mean one cannot do abortion if the mother is in danger of dying from complications?

Either way thanks for the help

If a mother has a tubal pregnancy, it is morally acceptable to perform a surgical procedure (removing the tube) to save the mother's life—otherwise neither the mother nor the baby would survive the inevitable rupture of the tube and resultant exsanguination.

One can envision similar circuмstance where a hysterectomy would be required. For example, if a mother with a normal intrauterine pregnancy suffered a motor vehicle accident causing a seat-belt injury that so badly ruptured the uterus that a hysterectomy is the only alternative to save the mother's life, that too is morally acceptable. Obviously, if a surgical alternative is available that would save both lives, that is the doctor's only alternative.

Doctors, Catholic or otherwise, are forced to make such decisions that are properly guided by Catholic morality.

Anem · « **Reply #7 on:** August 06, 2016, 12:43:08 PM »

Quote from: Mark 79

Quote from: Anem
New to this site btw.

I am soon done reading catechism. Only 100 pages left. And i read stuff about abortion and its strictly against it, but does it also mean one cannot do abortion if the mother is in danger of dying from complications?

Either way thanks for the help

If a mother has a tubal pregnancy, it is morally acceptable to perform a surgical procedure (removing the tube) to save the mother's life—otherwise neither the mother nor the baby would survive the inevitable rupture of the tube and resultant exsanguination.

One can envision similar circuмstance where a hysterectomy would be required. For example, if a mother with a normal intrauterine pregnancy suffered a motor vehicle accident causing a seat-belt injury that so badly ruptured the uterus that a hysterectomy is the only alternative to save the mother's life, that too is morally acceptable. Obviously, if a surgical alternative is available that would save both lives, that is the doctor's only alternative.

Doctors, Catholic or otherwise, are forced to make such decisions that are properly guided by Catholic morality.

Oh. I am somewhat unsure what the catholic church view is on it? Maybe they find it in terms of saving life acceptable or not. Although killing is never ok though. But if you remove the tube wont the baby sorta die or is it just me?.

My mum had her 7th child, and her stomach had to be cut open because of complications. So i see it ideal if one can save it. I am just unsure if there is no escape. I am not a doctor so i cant really comment on it since i have little to experience with it.

Mark 79 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 06, 2016, 12:58:02 PM »

Quote from: Anem

Quote from: Mark 79
Quote from: Anem
New to this site btw.

I am soon done reading catechism. Only 100 pages left. And i read stuff about abortion and its strictly against it, but does it also mean one cannot do abortion if the mother is in danger of dying from complications?

Either way thanks for the help

If a mother has a tubal pregnancy, it is morally acceptable to perform a surgical procedure (removing the tube) to save the mother's life—otherwise neither the mother nor the baby would survive the inevitable rupture of the tube and resultant exsanguination.

One can envision similar circuмstance where a hysterectomy would be required. For example, if a mother with a normal intrauterine pregnancy suffered a motor vehicle accident causing a seat-belt injury that so badly ruptured the uterus that a hysterectomy is the only alternative to save the mother's life, that too is morally acceptable. Obviously, if a surgical alternative is available that would save both lives, that is the doctor's only alternative.

Doctors, Catholic or otherwise, are forced to make such decisions that are properly guided by Catholic morality.

Oh. I am somewhat unsure what the catholic church view is on it? Maybe they find it in terms of saving life acceptable or not. Although killing is never ok though. But if you remove the tube wont the baby sorta die or is it just me?.

My mum had her 7th child, and her stomach had to be cut open because of complications. So i see it ideal if one can save it. I am just unsure if there is no escape. I am not a doctor so i cant really comment on it since i have little to experience with it.

What I have described is entirely consistent with Catholic morality.

If two would die without intervention and the only alternative is an alternative that saves only one, the moral choice is to proceed with saving one life. Obviously, if there is an alternative that saves both lives, then that is the required intervention.

Are these always black and white alternatives? No, so one hopes for that rarity, good Catholic doctors with well-formed Catholic consciences.

Anem · « **Reply #9 on:** August 06, 2016, 01:00:54 PM »

Quote from: Mark 79

Quote from: Anem
Quote from: Mark 79
Quote from: Anem
New to this site btw.

I am soon done reading catechism. Only 100 pages left. And i read stuff about abortion and its strictly against it, but does it also mean one cannot do abortion if the mother is in danger of dying from complications?

Either way thanks for the help

If a mother has a tubal pregnancy, it is morally acceptable to perform a surgical procedure (removing the tube) to save the mother's life—otherwise neither the mother nor the baby would survive the inevitable rupture of the tube and resultant exsanguination.

One can envision similar circuмstance where a hysterectomy would be required. For example, if a mother with a normal intrauterine pregnancy suffered a motor vehicle accident causing a seat-belt injury that so badly ruptured the uterus that a hysterectomy is the only alternative to save the mother's life, that too is morally acceptable. Obviously, if a surgical alternative is available that would save both lives, that is the doctor's only alternative.

Doctors, Catholic or otherwise, are forced to make such decisions that are properly guided by Catholic morality.

Oh. I am somewhat unsure what the catholic church view is on it? Maybe they find it in terms of saving life acceptable or not. Although killing is never ok though. But if you remove the tube wont the baby sorta die or is it just me?.

My mum had her 7th child, and her stomach had to be cut open because of complications. So i see it ideal if one can save it. I am just unsure if there is no escape. I am not a doctor so i cant really comment on it since i have little to experience with it.

What I have described is entirely consistent with Catholic morality.

If two would die without intervention and the only alternative is an alternative that saves only one, the moral choice is to proceed with saving one life. Obviously, if there is an alternative that saves both lives, then that is the required intervention.

Are these always black and white alternatives? No, so one hopes for that rarity, good Catholic doctors with well-formed Catholic consciences.

Thanks, i mean it seems sensical with the moral conclusions to what i read in catechism. If there is absolute no other choice.

Mark 79 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 06, 2016, 01:04:28 PM »

Precisely so.

Matthew is correct that abortion per se is never justifiable, but there are circuмstances in which life saving procedures are justifiable even if the baby would die.

Anem · « **Reply #11 on:** August 06, 2016, 01:18:29 PM »

Quote from: Mark 79

Precisely so.

Matthew is correct that abortion per se is never justifiable, but there are circuмstances in which life saving procedures are justifiable even if the baby would die.

I completely agree. You are most helpful

Matthew · « **Reply #12 on:** August 06, 2016, 04:11:42 PM »

Quote from: Mark 79

Precisely so.

Matthew is correct that abortion per se is never justifiable, but there are circuмstances in which life saving procedures are justifiable even if the baby would die.

Yes, though I didn't go into that in my post for the sake of brevity and focus.

You just can't directly kill the baby as your primary end. The baby might die because of some necessary life-saving procedure, but that is a different story.

Like Mark mentioned, a Catholic must be guided by truth and Catholic teaching. He must also make sure to conditionally baptize the baby as soon as possible in such cases.

But this "life of the mother" argument is so worn out. The reality is that 99.9% of abortions are not done for this reason. Most are because a baby would "crimp my style", "cost money", "tie me down", "destroy my career", "make me suffer", "I'm not ready for a baby", "my birth control failed", etc.

That's the hard REALITY of abortion.

Also, abortion is extremely violent for the baby, and causes permanent (mental, psychological, emotional) damage to the mother of the baby if she has an ounce of femininity left in her. That is also the hard reality.

So put those two together -- that's the reality of abortion. Ripping live babies limb from limb and throwing them in the trash can, because this woman would prefer to "enjoy life" and check more items off her "bucket list", or compete with men better in her career.

Anything else is just so much chaff -- so much fluff -- to distract us from the reality.

It's the classic case of catching your priest watching a 1 hour history docuмentary (which was his only screen time that MONTH), so you go ahead and give yourself permission to spend 3 hours a day watching typical Hollywood trash (rated R) movies, modern TV shows, etc. In other words, "give an inch, they'll take a mile". It's classic human behavior.

Stubborn · « **Reply #13 on:** August 06, 2016, 04:12:08 PM »

Quote from: JezusDeKoning

Now, here's a question I have:

Would it be within teaching that women should be punished for having an abortion? That's what's happening where my parents were born.

Of course, the mother and all who had a part in it should be put on trial for premeditated murder.

Consider that even in this Godless day, when a pregnant woman is murdered, the charges brought against the murderer by our justice system is *always* for the murder of two people - the mother and her unborn baby.

Matto · « **Reply #14 on:** August 06, 2016, 04:14:37 PM »

Quote from: JezusDeKoning

Now, here's a question I have:

Would it be within teaching that women should be punished for having an abortion? That's what's happening where my parents were born.

If you really believe that abortion is murder, and not just say you do, then you should want the mothers who have their babies murdered to be punished no differently than if the mother hired a hitman to murder one of her children who is already born.

Remember in this sense, abortion is worse than regular murder, not just because it is a mother who is murdering her own child, but also because when a normal person is murdered sometimes the soul of the victim will go to heaven and sometimes the soul will go to hell, but in an abortion, because the child is deprived of baptism it will always go to hell (limbo is a part of hell).